Ready to give up.

[A sea K]

I,m frustrated, tired, sad and about to give up.
Came home today and my Flame is MIA with no apparent reason.
Seems no matter how hard I try, it is always one setback or another.

[arts007]

I really think this happens to the best of us, I recently set up my latest tank and it was one problem after another, even before I added the LR.

Issues with lights not fitting right, or not working at all. Closed loops spewing bubbles, sump baffles collapsing...etc list goes on. I did feel like chucking the whole thing out the window, but I persevered and came out with a nice looking tank.

My latest frustration has been my diamond goby jumped for freedom and was found on the carpet with the consistency of beef jerky. That was a sad day.

But sometimes its not an easy hobby but the beauty and harmony of creatures living together keeps me coming back

-Joe

[A sea K]

I'm mostly distraught with the amount of losses ive incurred, I dont even want to get started with the amount of headaches and money spent trying to set-up and improve on system functions, most recently a $310.00 skimmer pump upgrade that is basically worse than before.
These are my fish losses since Sept,
2 Firefish gobies- added 9/30 one chased and harassed the other to its death and then died as well within 2-3 days.
2 Neon gobies- added 10/6 lost both to almost identical situation as with the firefish.
Mated pair of true Percs-added 10/22 not much I could do for these guys. Intrnet order, came down with clownfish disease and both were lost right away. This broke my heart, they were beautiful and wwhen I lost them it had a very negative impact on me but after a bit I continued on.
4 juvi Carpenters wrasse-added12/9 I eventually lost 2 that jumped(eggcrate made absolutely zero help to stop this) and lost the remaining 2 to powerhead/closedloop intake deaths. They were very heavaly bullied by the 2 McCoskers I put in to replace the previous Carpenters.
1 Randalls shrimp goby-added 1/10 I had a very hard time getting this guy to eat and he suffered a great deal till I devised a way to spot feed him and keep the others away. It took a little while but he regained all his weight and health back then mysteriously vanished a few weeks later.
1 Rainfords goby-added 1/21 This fishes death was totally my fault. I should have learned from the firefish and neon goby episode but I put him in with a established Hectori goby. He was removed to a different tank 5 days later but perished a few weeks later
1 Flame angel-added 2/16 this is another fish that had a rocky start. He was thin and weak when I first got him. He was also added together with a Potters about the same size, the Potters was phsically better off and made feeding the Flame troublesome.
He was doing much better and his health had improved a great deal. He was also standing his ground with the potters and the tension between them had passed. He was looking realy good last night at feeding time and now has vanished as well.
That in my book is wayy too many fish to loose and I dont think I want to keep going anymore. I'm no sap but I care for my fish and it really bothers me to keep loosing them. This really sucks and I dont know what to do to turn things around.

[sumpfish]

Maybe you need to start asking yourself if the system you have set up is overcrowded/unbalanced or otherwise unhealthy.

Is this the 210 or the 65 setup you're talking about??

How much live rock??

PH / NH3 / N02 / N03 / Alk / Calc etc... levels??

How much water flow?

Lighting ?

What sort of cleaning crews do you have?

If you are experiencing the mortality levels you mentioned, I agree with you...something is not right. Fish will try to jump if they're stressed and don't have anywhere to hide inside the tank. Check all the basic things and go uphill from there...

Good luck.
:)

[Aquaticman74]

I just tossed 57 skeletons of SPS in the trash if that makes you feel any better? :D

[A sea K]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9702679#post9702679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sumpfish
Maybe you need to start asking yourself if the system you have set up is overcrowded/unbalanced or otherwise unhealthy.

Is this the 210 or the 65 setup you're talking about??

How much live rock??

PH / NH3 / N02 / N03 / Alk / Calc etc... levels??

How much water flow?

Lighting ?

What sort of cleaning crews do you have?

If you are experiencing the mortality levels you mentioned, I agree with you...something is not right. Fish will try to jump if they're stressed and don't have anywhere to hide inside the tank. Check all the basic things and go uphill from there...

Good luck.
:)
This is the 210, things seem to be going well in the 65 w/the exception of a wandering BTA.

There is approx. 350lbs of live rock and I have roughly 1000gph for my return, 2 Seo 1500's @1500gph ea, and a Wave2k advertised @4000gph. This is around 38X turnover

My current levels which stay pretty consistant,
Temp 81.5-82.3. PH 7.9-8.1. Nitrate<5 Alk-3.08meq/l. cal-430
magnesium-1230
I dont generaly track my trites or ammo unless I have added new fish or lose anything large that cant be recovered(this has not happened yet) I do keep an Ammo alert in plain sight as a precaution.

Current tankmates, Mag foxface 4.5", 1 Regal, 1 Kole, and 1 Mimic tang all less than 3.75", Radiant wrasse 4", Yellow coris2.5", 2 McCoskers wrasse 3", Potters angel 2.5", Pair true Percs 2 and 2.5", Orchid dottyback 2.5", Lawnmower Blenny 3"
Hectori goby 1.5"
For my clean up crew, 3 cucumbers( standard tigertail), Brittle star(getting kinda big), Serpent star(still small), Tonga conch,
12 Nassisirus(mix super and reg size) 8 Astrea, 2 Tuxedo urchins,
2 Emerald crabs, 20 blue leg hermits, 2 Pepermint shrimp, 1 Fire cleaner shrimp.
There is a BTA that has been on a downhill trend that I cant seem to reverse, on the other hand I purchased a bleached H.crispa with the 2 clowns that has done nothing but flourish. It has regained all its color and is 3 to 4 times the original purchase size back on Dec 9.
Very few corals at this point, Candycane, Trumpet, Maze brain, Frogspawn, and a few Monti's. All are doing very well with the exception of the Montis. I havent figured out the gluing part and they keep getting knocked about.

For lighting I have 3X150 HQI @ 10K supplemented with 4x96 actinic PC. On the weak side for a 30" deep tank, should be OK for the corals I am planning.

I have been carefull not to chose any incompatable fish and dont feel I am overstocked, This is my complete stocking list minus the now missing Flame. I could be wrong but believe I am OK. If I am wrong please bring it to my attention.

[A sea K]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9702742#post9702742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Aquaticman74
I just tossed 57 skeletons of SPS in the trash if that makes you feel any better? :D
That is a major bummer, but I can deal with the loss of the investment much easier than the loss of my fishes lives.
I know corals are living, but to me theyre not the same as fish.
I know I didnt explain myself very well, Please dont take this the wrong way.

[alan214]

I may have missed it but when did you set up thie 210G? All your parms look good so you're not way off in the weeds or anything.

I recommend you just take a break and not dwell on the need to add anymore fish for the next 3 months. Just give the tank a chance to "gel" with it's current chemistry.

One more question, did you use new live sand when you set up this tank?

[Reefbox]

Were the fish tank raised or caught in the wild by dynamite or cyanide, transported 1000's of miles to a warehouse in LA/MIA, then to lfs then directly to your house?

I would not give up because sick fish shipped 1000's of miles are dieing in your system. Some of the catch methods are brutal and need to stop.cyanide thread (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8719675)

Go with tank raised for any species that you can find but I know it's usually harder to find tr but they are usually in superior health.

I have lost many wild caught fish and I blame it on how they caught them or the health they were in when I received them, except for the first couple when i first started. That was all my fault then.

best luck

[lakwriter]

Your pH seems a bit low at 7.9-8.1. I try to shoot for 8.4.

[Aquabucket]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9702742#post9702742 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Aquaticman74
I just tossed 57 skeletons of SPS in the trash if that makes you feel any better? :D

SPS skeletons are actually worth $$$. The bigger the colony the more they are worth. Locally large ones here sell for 45-65 bucks. Sorry to here the bad news though.

A sea K ~ hang in there fish can be more difficult to keep than corals sometimes. I try to stock fish mainly collected from Hawaii, Tonga, Fiji, Solomon Islands, and Micronesia.

[A sea K]

Alan214, The tank was set up on Aug 5 06, The live rock and sand was added on Sept 1 06. I used a mix of arogonite and seafloor grade around 1.5- 2" deep, all dry and rinsed well. No live sand. I had no future plans of adding anymore fish, my stock list was complete and I was ready to sit back and enjoy.

Reefbox, The only tank raised were the 2 neon gobies and the orchid dottyback, All the fish have come from several reputable online dealers and my LFS. The flame and potters are both from the LFS

lakwriter, The PH is a little low and I will address this in time. I'm still tweaking the setup and making changes that will possibly affect the PH so I thought it best to not try to adjust PH till I have everything like I need it. I dont think the PH at this level is problematic other than it does not allow any leeway if it were to take a dip.

Aquabucket, Again really sorry for your misfortune, Your not joking about the cost of SPS and I guess I'm lucking in the fact that my lights are underpowered, it keeps me from even trying them. Besides I cant seem to get my skimmer working to its potential so this goes against it even more.

My LFS dealer is going to make a trip over here tomorrow to see if he can pinpoint any problems(this is pretty standup of him as I live about 50 miles from his store) he seems to feel it is an aggression problem.
Thankyou all for the support, I really need it. Chris

[Tang Salad]

Hang in there A sea K!

It sounds like you've just had a string of bad luck. It'll change.

[Sepeku]

Things will turn around. I can echo a similar thread of misfortunes.
Most recently, dosing the tank with copper (accidentally and slowly via a brass coupling) and killing all my shrimp (except one... he is now "The Omega Shrimp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067525/)").

It will be less of a headache in time.:cool:

[Frick-n-Frags]

study up on reeftank biology and maintenance procedures. compare to what you are doing.
maybe you need to dial yours in for the long haul
sounds like the 6 months of "this is too easy" borrowed time has run out.

obviously, do the fish a favor and don't buy anymore until you get your tank stable. a large waterchange, stop feeding for a week, verify that you actually own an accurate: salinity measurer, pH tester, alk tester, and thermometer would be some things to get checked off the list pronto.

then throw some time into the mix, and you should be able get on top of this. relax, think, and go from where you are right now

"Hey Waterboy! you conn doo eeeet!" :D

[sumpfish]

As the others have said, nothing really jumps out at me for why you've had so many losses. Your ph is a little low, but my 75 reef routinely is around 8.1 and its flourishing. Your tank temp is a little high...the higher temp contributes to stress in fish, inverts and the corals. I run a chiller to keep the water temp at 77 - 79 degrees. I didn't see you mention what your salinity reading is....if its too high, that contributes to stress also. Anything above 1.025 is too high. My tank runs about 1.023-1.024. You might consider adding to your cleanup crew; it seems small for a 210 with that many fish. However, if your NH3, N02 and N03 are OK, then maybe you don't need to add any critters. I would expect dozens of Astrea and Nassarius snails for a tank that size.

Don't give up just yet....give the tank some time to find its equilibruim.

Mark.
:)

[davidryder]

Looks like you have just encountered a lot of learning experiences. In the future I would recommend doing a lot of research on potential tankmates. Compatibility is one of the most important things when adding fishies.

Take a break and let things calm down for a few months... good luck!

[A sea K]

Another very long day today, Just got home and its almost time for bed. Things seem normal in the tank today, no losses.
Tang Salad, I will be hanging in it seems, thanks for the support and I hope your right about the bad luck and not something turning for the worse that I cannot recognize.
Sepeku, I almost did the same thing when first setting up the tank. Wasnt sure how the brass would effect the tank, glad I passed on using it or my problems could be much worse.
Frick-and-Frags, I am feeling somewhat studied out at this point but will do as you recommend. I could stand some additional input in both these areas.
Definately need to dial in the system and have been working hard towards this goal, feels like Im always"chasing" the tank to get it right.
I agree the tank needs a break but now I'm faced with replacing the Flame to the system that has a Potters becoming more establashed and am worried about waiting too long.
I have 30gals mixed and ready to change this weekend(this is my normal bi-weekly change) Testing devices are all ok, refractometer, PH monitor less than 1 month since calibrated,Salifert kits for all others purchased after I got the tank. I have 3 thermometers on the tank and use the average reading so it must be close.
Time is one area that I skimped in, I need to get a little more control of this. But I am much better at fighting off impulse buying urges when I go the LFS( he's got a beutiful Scotts fairy that took everything I had not to bring home last week). Relax and think are two very good suggestions, will heed this advice.
The Waterboy comment was great, I love that movie.

sumpfish, I maintain my salinity at 1.026. What you just pointed out could be a very significant problem. It was my understanding to run at this salinity for keeping corals and inverts, but couple the high salinity and high temp and that is a problem I will need to address.
I have absolutely no room for a chiller and the high temps have been something I have been working on and also a large part of the reason I only have 150 watt halides.
The clean up crew seems to do a good job, I dont seem to have any issues that warrant adding any that I am aware of. NO2 and NO3 are fine, I dont know what NH3 is though. And the 2 Tuxedo urchins cover a lot of rockwork in a day but seem to only eat the coraline.

davidryder,The bad learning experiances,I gues I got to take the good with the bad and hopefully I will learn from this.
I actually worked and researched quite hard to come up with my stocking list. I was aware of that some of the fish could be a problem when placed in a tank together but the 210 seemed to be large enough to allow this, but it was not so. I must also add that I seem to have more than normal compatability issues and not really sure why.

I have a couple of issues to address(temp and salinity) and thanks to everyones comments and suggestions I shall press on at a little slower and more relaxed pace. I have learned one thing for sure though, The learning curve in the marine aquarium hobby is a steep one that comes at a very high price to the very animals we try so hard to keep. I shall try harder in the future.
Again thankyou all, This has been very helpfull to me.
Chris

[DouglasTiede]

Wow, some of you have lost a lot of fish.. I know I am no expert and I have had some loses too.
I have to ask, why do you not QT new fish for 6 weeks like you should to cut down on loses
of the new fish and the disease they can spread to the show tank??
Also a little research will let you know some of the combinations that some people try with
certain fish types are doomed from the start...
( ie, neon gobies with fish like dottys and pseudo's.. not good! )

Just asking a question, perhaps this will save some heart break in the future if we as reefers educate ourselves a little more.

and that word that we tell the newbies on here PATIENCE :D

I wish you better luck in the future.. there is nothing like the
excitement of a Happy Reef!!!

[A sea K]

Doug,
Qt was an issue I struggled with and really felt my skills (or lack there of) would only compound my problems and result in more losses. It is a very lengthy explanation and not the BEST way to do things but within my personal limitations this was my best choice. As a side note the Flame had been in the tank since Feb, 6 and had shown only signs of improvement till he passed the other day.
As far as my research and choice of fish, this is also a lengthy explanation but in the case of the losses of both the neon and firefish gobies, I did not add the orchid dottyback untill after they were gone and I decided not to add any more of these little guys and feel the dottyback is a good addition to my current inhabitants.
They say patience is a virtue, but this is something I have always been in short supply of.
I was reading your interest in your sig and noticed your fond of target archery, very cool. I used to be into the archery scene when the 3-D tournies were gaining popularity. The 3-D was a lot of fun but I always believed targets was the most challengeing and really taught me how to shoot well.
The posts that you and others have made has shed light on some shortcomings that will and need to be addressed, this is all greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Chris

[Shaun120]

Get a refractometer with ATC (compensates for temp) 1.026 = NSW so your fine there. The temp is probably one of the major problems. Extended exposure to 81+ F can and will cause problems. It can/does affect several parameters including PH and salinity readings to name a few.

Hang in there and try giving the tank some time to stabilize like others have said.

Trust me on the salinity...

[A sea K]

Shaun, I alredy have the refractometer w/ATC so that is covered but now I'm confused on what is the best level for the salinity.
I'm running out of ideas on lowering tank temp. I just changed skimmer pumps to help,(Sedra9000 to a Ehiem1262) the only other pumps are the Mag 18 for my return and the Maxijet 1200 for the skimmer feed. Ive been considering changing out the mag for a dual Ehiem 1260 setup(no room for external) but not sure I will maintain current flow or lose any heat so this is still a work in progress.
My weekend project is to replace my 2 seio 1500's at 34 watts ea with a used set of tunze6000 at 15 watts ea. I'll lose 38 watts and gain a little flow, hopefully this will help.

[InvaderJim]

Don't give up! :D Who else am I going to just miss every time I go to the LFS? lol

[Sk8r]

Look on the live aquaria site: they have a fish compatibility guide which I find helpful.

Jumpers: any fish whose length exceeds his depth of body is likely to leap to escape predation or perceived threat: it's a common tactic, which works---in the ocean: my current fix is Gutter Guard, a plastic grid that cuts with scissors and can be duct-taped over some critical areas. Jumps also tend to happen in areas of upwelling current: the fish uses the rising water to accelerate.

Also never buy a fish on sympathy: if they aren't fat when you get them, there may well have been a reason for it. And of course, qt-ing is actually not as hard on the fish as you might think: it gives them time to feed without competition, swim without bright light blinding them, and calm down---what you may not know is that fish often go without food after being caught until they get to the distributor, and may not be fed for two weeks during shipment process to dealer, if the schedules mesh badly; and then if you buy a fish on its first day on display, before it's had time to settle again---there you are---a fish that's really stressed out and that may have started having internal problems from lack of food and shipping stress. So if you don't see the fish eat AT the lfs, decline, until they can demonstrate it is eating. Watch for hollow belly, ragged or torn fins, gaping gills, all bad signs in almost all species.

[boxfishpooalot]

my questions-

1) what device do you use for measuring sg?
2) Do things grow in the tank? Algae , corals ect?
3) What are you using for top off water? If ro, whats the tds, what device for tds measurment?
4) How much do you feed the fish?
5) what is the sg of the lfs you buy from, and what is your procedure for acclimating the fish?
6) What is used to maintain a stable sg?
7) What do you use to maintain alkalinity? Is it stable?


Answer theese I bet you we will discover somthing.

[0 Agios]

Electrician Here !!!!!!!!!! Did you check for a broken heater or for a voltage leak in your tank ? is there a grounding probe ?