Project 180/ A couple questions.

[eyebedam]

As some of you know I bought a 180 from glasscages awhile back. It is reef ready with the low iron glass "no green tint". Well Ive decided since i have a basement Im gonna have all my plumbing down there & pump it back up to the tank. I built a 14x14 room just for this purpose. Wayne & myself have been talking about this for a couple weeks about plumbing & this is what weve come up with thus far. We were thinking about using all 4 holes in the bottom as drain lines to the sump teeing them together to make 2 drain lines Then from the first sump which is a 50 gal wide glasscages sump send a line to a mr2 skimmer then to a 150 gallon rubbermaid tub/sump. From that it would be pumped back up the floor into the tank which will have a pvc return pipe running down the side of 1 of the overflows to the bottom of the tank with various streams of lockline running flow throughout the tank? Will this work? This will all be done with a hammerhead pump. Im planning on doing this sunday witht he help of wayne. Any comments or suggestions a truly welcomed & i would like to hear threm all. I want to do this right the first time. Also anyone that would like to help thats cool to.:rollface:

[gflat65]

Cheating on me with Wayne, huh;).

Sounds good, but I'd split the PVC returns to two locations, then go lock line. I don't kow what your design for the returns looks like, but one down the side of each overflow would help split more evenly (assuming downstream fittings are similar in head pressure losses). Otherwise, I would think you might see less flow out of a piece run to the far end of the tank. Maybe not with a hammerhead, but just suspicious. A Hammerhead seems like a pretty extreme pump for a return on a 180, but I guess you'd have somewhere near 300 gallons of water in the system...

Also, just to clear up, the 50 gallon drains to the 150, separately from the MR2, right? If not, you might run into some hydraulic issues. Just make sure the total area of the drain hole from the 50 matches the total area of all the drains, otherwise, you risk a backup. I'd go bigger on the discharge from the 50 to the 150 than the drains combined to be safe, actually. If you have (2)-1.5" drains and (2) 1" returns drilled in the bottom, you would have a total area of 5.1025 sq in (pi * rad^2 or (2*(3.14*.75*.75)+(2*(3.14*.5*.5). You'd need a 2.5" hole (or 3" to be safe) to match th edrains coming into the 50. (((square root of (5.1025/3.14))*2 gives diameter). Sorry for the math lesson if you didn't need it, but I've made the mistake in the past of thinking, oh (2)-1/2" lines are the same as a 1" line... and I'm an engineer...

[crumbletop]

Yeah, 2 lines split on the return would probably be a bit safer too, with 2 siphon breaks, instead of one. Are you going to have locline branching off toward the top, or only from the bottom?

[eyebedam]

There will prob be quite a few loclines in the bottom. For movement up top I will be using 2 hydor korlia 1200,s till I can afford to get some tunzes. Im up for any suggestions if anyone has any ideas that sound better. Nothing is in concrete. This is just the idea wayne & myself have been throwning around.

[CKreef]

do you have the korlias yet?

[crumbletop]

Well, here are some random thoughts:

-- a closed loop is more efficient in terms of generating flow than a return pump. Essentially the only back pressure on a closed loop is from the plumbing. A return pump also has to fight gravity. Since you are going to be pumping up from the basement, you'll loose some flow. You might consider going with a smaller return pump and a closed loop.

-- make sure you remember to drill the siphon break holes in your return plumbing. With the locline coming off of the bottom you'd drain the entire tank if the return pump cuts off.

-- those hydor pumps look pretty cool. I'm interested to hear how they work for you.

-- have you thought about ocean motions? I think Angela uses one on her 270. That might be cool for producing random flow in your tank.

[Kalied20]

I got two of the hydors 400's the smallest one in my 90 about a month ago. I like them for what I bought them for. Oringinally they were for getting some current to the right side of my tank. The current was having a hard time getting to the back of my rock formation on that side.

Worked great in my opinion. I wish I would have bought the larger ones thou. I ended up buying a MJmod 1200 that I am using on the right side and the two hydors on the left. working good right now, bet I am turning over about 100x my volume per hour. :lol: :lol: :lol: I don't really know I haven't really added it up till now.

Return pump = mag 5 with 3.5 foot of head pressure.
MJmod 1200 = don't even know.
2 hydors 400 = probably about 650-700gph flow

Well anyways my corals and fish are doing great.

[KAiNE]

If i am reading this correctly you are thinking of doing something like i have.....

Mine-
2 x 2"drains merging into one 3", output 350gph or so via 1" gate to a pair of fuges (which then flow to the sump, one flows to the next, the second is really a remote sandbed) the rest flows directly to the sump flowing directly at the skimmer intake providing as "dirty" a water possible.
Dolphin 3000 (or spare Sequence3200) return via 1.5" pipe to 8 x 3/4 line loc.
Iwaki 30RLT via 1" pvc run through up through overflow and down to pipe work under the rock providing flow to low back areas. Make sure you use a pressure pump here.... lot of back pressure especially over time.... i estimate my pipes are 20% clogged. Make SURE you drill an anti siphon on this... if mine were to siphon it would drain my tank to about 6" left..... bad, bad.

First problem you will encounter is noise.... with a Hammerhead @ 12' of head you will still be flowing like 4300gph. That will create noise that no duso will fix... been there...lol

I had 3 spills before i got everything working right... plan well!

[KAiNE]

In hindsight I should have gone closed loop rather than flowing as much as i do through my sump. It creates a noise issue that i know of only one remedy...
If i change anything, that would be it.
The only thing I don't like about a CL is having an intake in the display that large (tank isn't drilled for such) and with that much suction.

[Angela Short]

I like my OM but for the money of the OM and the pump to run it(About $600) I wonder if a few tunzens on a controller would not be almost as cheap? Haven't ever priced them...
I also wouldn't think running all your flow through 1 pump is a good idea. I kill my overflow retun pump to feed and the OM closed loop keeps everything mixing great while I add filter feeding foods and just the fact the overflows do not just suck all the flakes down to the sump before the fish feed which = uneated food in the sump to foul the water. Is a Mr2 rated big enouph for you water volume? I can't talk, My Aqua c 180 is way underrated for my volume but better than nothing!

[waynesworld]

My Brother went with a CL at first with his 300 and now is switching to Tunze and is out all of the plumbing it took it does add up the Tunze for a 180 will not be that much a little over 700.
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=TZTS21
If you look at only 1 seq hammerhead you start with 300 for the pump and another 100-200 in plumbing parts. then you take the elect difference and the replacement cost of the pump as it will need replacement well before the Tunze. Then the worry of the seal going out on a day you are not around and all of your tank draining on your floor. well now you see why I went with Tunze.

[waynesworld]

I am not saying CL are not good for some tanks but when you start looking into the real flow you get from the Tunze it really looks closer then some people think on cost. Also the 750 for Tunze comes with a controller as you would not have in a CL unless you buy something like a OM which are not cheap.

[crumbletop]

I agree -- I like my Tunze :)

[c_stowers]

I would have to disagree with you on the Tunze's. Don't get me wrong, the Tunze's provide great flow and are well built, but they are not superior to a closed loop. The main reason is because they require you to put this huge obtrusive chunk of plastic in your tank. Secondly, I disagree with the fact that they will outlast a good closed loop pump. Direct drive, industrial grade pumps, are often rated to last for 15 years. Additionally, when it comes time to service them, it won't require working inside the tank to remove the pump/powerhead. I don't currently run a CL, but I have thought about the situation for years. I hate looking at my Seio's and I know that Tunze's are similar in size. I feel that closed loops will give a more natural look to your system.

A second point to consider is that most direct drive pumps are pressure rated and can therefore permit the use of penductors. If you use a large pump (3000-4000 GPH) with penductors, I don't believe a Tunze can touch the amount of flow coming out of a CL.

[crumbletop]

Yeah, pros and cons for each side. I do like the look of tanks that don't have any power heads showing. Wayne has a good situation on his monster tank in that there are glass panels instead of the whole thing being glass, which gives room to hide stuff.

[waynesworld]

Well I agree with you on having something in a small tank < 120 the sight of Tunze are harder to hide. But as I have a CL and also used penductors and will use them in the large tank I do not think the pumps offer a better flow. I know you can take numbers that they try to push that the penductors put out looks like they out perform the Tunze but the fact is in the operation and I am yet to see someone that has had Tunze switch back to CL but seen a lot of others that go the other way. It is all a matter of personal preference but the fact is if in a CL the seal goes out on the pump where is the water going? If the Tunze malfunctions the water stays in the tank and also how many holes do you need in your tank for Tunze? Every hole in a tank is a possible leak. Heat, electricity, snails trying to commit suicide fish stuck on the intake or becoming ground sushi. Like I had stated before I have Closed loops in my tanks and have worked with others with them and they do have a lot of benefit but as I see there are something better. You can also hide the Tunze in the rocks or buy there over priced rock.

[turboex901]

im not sure if its needed but, ill throw the offer out to help with the large plumbing job youll have going on. i did it for a living for several years and was a parts wholesaler until recently. i can do some cool stuff with pvc and my labor is free for anyone in the club. let me know :) <~~~steve

[eyebedam]

Thats cool with me. Well how does this sound. Ill just go the normal route. Use my drains for drains & returns for returns. No closed loop. Ill get a sequence dart for my return pump & use the korilias for extra water movement till I can get some tunzes. Ive also been thinking about getting a wave 2k to sit inbetween my overflows so that could be another option. Steve Im down with the help since Ive never ran any plumbing before in my life.

[Angela Short]

I love my Dart... very Quiet.

[eyebedam]

Well the dart is out. It shuts off at 12 ft of head pressure. Im pumping atleast 15 ft straight up thats not counting any angles or teeing off of the pipe. Remeber the sump & all are in a room in my basement ill try to post pics later.

[KAiNE]

ReeFlo Barracuda would give you ~800gph
Sequence 3200 would give you ~1700gph

[Mdwannabe]

Check out my gallery, and see out how I did my internal CL.
You see nothing (pump wise), and it is quiet.
Oh, and by the way, my main supply pumps are about a 15 foot lift from the tank. I just love looking at all that flow, but hearing nothing but hood cooling fan's.
JMTCW

[Mdwannabe]

Gary:
All that ciphering reminds me of the days when I sat at a drawing board myself (yes a drawing board).....pre CAD. Oh lord, did I just date myself!
I can't tell you how much I don't miss using my BSME, but it does come in handy sometimes in the OR (and at home), McGyver would be so proud of me!
Are you a mechanical engineer? If so, do what I did. Get into operative medicine, it's a chance to work on the ultimate machine! :)
I love to remind the Surgeon's I work with that, while they may think they are God, not one of them is smart enough to design such a splendid machine.
When the God syndrome occurs, it's always my privilege, to remind them they are nothing more than over-educated "Maytag Repair Men"!, and, he can even do his repairs SOLO.
That being said, I'm not sure why some of them don't like me! :) , but they all seem to want to know where I am when something is going wrong.
Come on Gary, jump into the pool, it's fun, just ask Sexi-Shrimp.

[gflat65]

I have thought of the medical field tagged onto the BSME... Of course, I'd always wanted to do Marine Biology after the BSME, but haven't gotten anywhere on that, either (or the languages I wanted to learn, or that bird house I started building when I was 8...). I think I'd enjoy playing with toys as intricate as medical toys:). My toys now are huge boxes with fast moving parts that yearn to rip things apart. It's fun and all, but has it's limitations;).

Funny you mention McGuyver. We are interviewing for engineers right now and one of the questions I always ask is if they have ever had to Mc Guyver something, what they had to do and what materials they had. I've had two out of about 15 people give me decent answers and both involved duct tape and zip ties:D.

[chris205]

Gary,
If medical doesn't happen. Then try aviation maintenance. It's worked for me! There's lots of facets to this field. It's perfect for someone who is a jack of all trades(McGuyver).

[eyebedam]

Md/ nice closed loop you have there. Anyone else have any suggestions, I dont want this to get to far off topic.

[Fanof49ASU]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9246711#post9246711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by chris205
Gary,
If medical doesn't happen. Then try aviation maintenance. It's worked for me! There's lots of facets to this field. It's perfect for someone who is a jack of all trades(McGuyver).

My brother has a Masters in Aviation Safety and worked as a mechanic at a small airport for a few years. The longer he thought about the liability issues of his job, the more he thought about getting into teaching. Now he teaches at UND. :) He loves it there.

[Fanof49ASU]

Sorry Eyebedam....I read Chris205's post before your post.

[chris205]

Fanof49ASU,
A lot of people feel that way and I don't blame them. There is a huge amount of responsibility involved in aviation maintenance.
I know more than one person who has dropped out because of the responsibility involed.

[fishdoc11]

Here is what I would do so take it FWIW. I would use a larger pressure rated Iwaki or Pan World/blueline for the return. It will handle the pressure, be extrememly reliable(especially if you use an Iwaki) and last a long time. If you have the $ adding Sea Swirls to the returns will give you some good randomness (is that a word?)
I would plumb a CL with 2 penductors(eductors are bigger but will get you a little more flow) and use a GenXpcx 55 or equivalent to run it. Cheaper than an Iwaki and still as good at producing flow @ head.....this will produce a TON of flow and you can use this flow to shoot across the length of the tank since the Penductors will carry farther than a Tunze.
Use another GenXpcx55 for the MR2(assuming you are using one beckett) if you don't have a pump allready....extend it to an MR3 when you get the chance.
Then I would add a couple of Tunzes on a controller when you get the chance to provide some random additional flow if needed. Don't hide them in the rocks as you won't be able to get them out to clean them easily. A good cheaper alternate if you would like to try them is the Maxi mods but they will not provide any randomness. I have a couple of 900's and they have worked very well for me. I really like the sealless pumps listed above because as Chris stated they are virtually maintenance free, last a long time and handle head pressure very well. Also in the basement you don't have to worry about the noise.
What I have listed is very similar to my setup and I keep all my pumps, ballasts and my chiller in the garage next to the tank.
hth, Chris

[eyebedam]

thanks for the input Chris.

[fishdoc11]

No problem....do you already have the Hammerhead?

[eyebedam]

No I havent bought a pump yet. Wayne aka Waynesworld is gonna let me use 1 of his to see how i like it.

[fishdoc11]

If you are thinking about using that type pump you might want to study JBNY's old system a bit:
http://www.cnidarianreef.com
It's a 180 with the sump and equipment below the tank. He used a Sequence pump split to supply the return and his beckett skimmer. Not sure how the 6000 compares to the Hammerhead though.
Chris

[turboex901]

i like chris' idea jason. it will save alot of money in pvc and bulkheads $$$$$ probably not enough to offset the cost of the tunzes but coming from the plumbing profession......the less joints you have the less potential for leaks there are long term :)

[eyebedam]

Ii is a pretty good idea & the less potential for a leak the better.