Rock Pillar Project

[CKreef]

Ok so after some research I think I am going to make some rock pillars in my 90g tank. The plan is to use some 1/2" acrylic as a base to burying in the sand. Next weldon a 3/4" black acrylic rod to the base. Drill 3/4" holes in my rock and slide them onto the black acrylic rod. Last epoxy any small pieces on the rock to add to the look of the pillars. I dont know how many pillars I will make but I am tired of the rock wall look in my tank. I want a more open flow area in the tank. Anyone with other ideas or suggestions please chime in. When I begin this project anyone and everyone is welcome to come see it or pitch in. Thanks Chris

[CloudIX]

Thats cool. I want to do something like this in my 240 gallon tank but i dont have enought rock yet. Do you think that the weldon will hold all the weight without breaking off from the base?

[CKreef]

Sorry forgot that part. The acrylic base will be drilled to insert the rod and another small piece of acrylic drilled and put around the rod.This will make a 1" base around the rod. And of course those 3parts will all be glued together with weldon.

[SRT80]

What about this for the base....could you take a very large piece of rock and drill a hole and glue the rod to it? I had 3 very large rocks that came in my order of hirocks. I was thinking about making 2 pillars for my 29 gal. Wont take much since its not a large tank. But, That's what I was thinking about trying.

Steve

[CloudIX]

Oh I see, so your going to use 2 pieces to give it a deeper foot hold in the acrylic? How tall are you thinking about making the rod? LOL.. sorry about all the questions, Im just trying to sponge ideas from ya.

[CKreef]

Steve I think that will work as long as you can glue the rock to the rod. By using the weldon with the rod and base I am pretty sure they will be secure. What kind of glue would you use to bond acylic to rock?


Yes a deeper foothold the rod would actually be inserted and glued into a 1" base. The rods will be no taller than24" or 25".

[crumbletop]

I'm interested in the pillars, but I have a bunch of rubble that I'd like to make into bigger rocks -- so I'm going to try and go the Thorite route for bonding the rocks. I have a bead on a local supply that hopefully will work out.

For those who don't know what we're talking about, here is a thread from Sanjay's 500 gallon tank from last fall that I bookmarked. This links to where he was building some LR pillars:

http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86689&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=59

[CKreef]

I called the guys you listed last night about thorite. It would be $36.00 plus a frieght charge it is not kept in stock. If you are going to get some let me know maybe we could split it.

[crumbletop]

I called BASF today in MN, and got the regional dude for down here to give me a contact. I didn't get to talk to him today and will try again tomorrow. It was a different place than the link from yesterday.

[CKreef]

Cool please let me know I just didnt want to pay that much because its a 50-60lb bucket and I wont need that much lol

[Kalied20]

CK....just let me know when you get everything together. I will be there.

[CloudIX]

Why would you use thorite for bonding rocks, verses say epoxy or something? Also is there a cureing time for it? Cause most morter repair has a type of cement in it that would mess up the PH. just wondering if there would be a more avail substance for this type of project.

[fishdoc11]

Nicest aquascape I have seen lately FWIW:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=927405&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Might give you some ideas...might not:)

Chris

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9185418#post9185418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CloudIX
Why would you use thorite for bonding rocks, verses say epoxy or something? Also is there a cureing time for it? Cause most morter repair has a type of cement in it that would mess up the PH. just wondering if there would be a more avail substance for this type of project.

From what I remember (and I need to read up on it again), Thorite doesn't cause pH problems in the tank, and cures really quickly.

Here's a quick quote from a thread on it:
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8596799#post8596799 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TurboSnail8898
Its a special kind, a cement called Thorite Rapid Vertical, made by Thoro. The only place in know to get it is in Newark, California. It has been exclusively used at Wikiki Aquariums and was featured in Sprung's book, The Reef Aqauriums Vol 3 pg 562. Get a hold of a member called Cerreta, you can find him in the Tucson, Arizona forum. He has ordered it and will know the company to get it from.

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9185502#post9185502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Nicest aquascape I have seen lately FWIW:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=927405&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Might give you some ideas...might not:)

Chris

Really nice. I like the inspiration pic and how his "copy" looked.

[KAiNE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9185502#post9185502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fishdoc11
Nicest aquascape I have seen lately FWIW:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=927405&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
Might give you some ideas...might not:)

Chris

Thanks for crushing my "tank self esteem" :D

Check his site out too - http://www.hausriff.ch

[CKreef]

Yes fishdoc I want a similar look to Iwans tank

[CKreef]

Also check out this rockwork http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86689&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=59

[rsteagall]

When I do my upgrade (who knows when this will be), I'm going to model my rock design after "Carl's 150g reef" as in the video at http://www.reefvideos.com/ . I just love the rockwork even though I probably will never have that many sps. A 3 side viewable tank like that just opens all kinds of possibilities. Its not just about straight pillars... but also cave like structures and openness. He also drilled holes all over the place so he could plug all his frags. I liked that idea too. The usage of thorite is great too, so you might want to consider using this maybe in place of epoxy or at least in between the rocks you slide down over the dowel.

[SRT80]

Carl's 150g reef is awesome. I have already lost count of how many times I have watched that video. I'd never have a setup like that cause I couldn't do all the SPS. But, I think doing the 2 pillars looks really good. I like how the tangs swim through them.

Steve

[CKreef]

If we can get some thorite that wont cost an arm and a leg thats what i will do. Thorite is what i originally wanted so maybe it will happen.

[rsteagall]

hmmm what was the other stuff.... like quickcrete wall something? Whatever it is... I would think this would be the most common to find. Surely its not that expensive. or is it?

[CKreef]

quickwall has to be cured for a period of time it has a high ph

[rsteagall]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9186932#post9186932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CKreef
quickwall has to be cured for a period of time it has a high ph

Are you certain? This thread makes me believe there is not an issue:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=988818

[DMBillies]

I'm just setting up my 90 and have a huge piece of live rock that I could definitely use as a base to stack on top of. Where are you guys getting the acrylic rods? I know it was posted somewhere, but I can't find it.

I'd also be interested in a small amount of this thorite business to play around with if/when you get it. I don't think I can use much and I don't have anywhere to store any amount of it (the fish tank closet has already spilled into multiple closet :)) but if anyone has a bit left over, let me know.

[CKreef]

Brian I ordered 4=36" black acrylic rods off of ebay I could not find any black acrylic rods locally

[CKreef]

Okay now I am confused, I thought if the cement was a hydralic cured cement it would leach and raise your ph. I looked up the MSDS ln 3 products. 1)Thorite General Purpose http://buildsite.com/dbderived-f/thoro/derived_files/derived225051.pdf
2)Quickrete Quickwall http://www.quikrete.com/PDFs/MSDS-MortarsStuccosThinSet.pdf
3)Dam-it http://www.euclidchemical.com/fileshare/ProductFiles/msds/083_60_U.pdf

All of these contain portland cement. So my question is this Are they all Hydrualic curing cements? If so what makes one safe and not the other?

[CKreef]

Okay I also looked up the Thorite Rapid Vertical 4)http://buildsite.com/dbderived-f/thoro/derived_files/derived147505.pdf

[mamagoose45]

I was looking at the one link that Jack (I think) posted of Sanjay's monster tank with the really cool pillars. First off, it's amazing and I'm green with envy in all aspects. Secondly, I realized he's a professor at Penn State. It just so happens that Brian and I will be heading back up to our alma mater next weekend...maybe we can track him down and sneak a peek at the tank? I'm always up for drooling over someone else's tank... Does anyone know if he's on RC?

[CloudIX]

CKreef. I asked the same question earlier in the thread. I was told that Thorite Rapid Vertical does not require a cureing time.

[CKreef]

I am almost positive that the thorite does not require the cureing time. The other 2 i really dont know. If we can get some Thorite Rapid Vertical Im in!! Just let me know what I owe.

[crumbletop]

Spoke with the guy. I'm supposed to get some pricing information on thorite tomorrow.

[CKreef]

Anyone have a drill we can use that will fit a 3/4" bit?? A bit that size wont fit in my little drill.

[crumbletop]

Okay. I've found some more info re: making these things, and on the Thorite Rapid Vertical.

First -- here is a quote from Sanjay on Thorite Rapid Vertical:
<a href=http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8251852#post8251852 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sanjay
Like all cement it is alkaline and will have a high ph, but it does not seem to have a large ph raising effect since you are not using large quantities of it. In the past I have drained a tank, used thorite to assemble the rocks, and added back the fish/coral the same day and things were fine.
It sounds like it will work fine for this project. I hope to have more info on a possible local source later today.

Second -- Sanjay and others report problems with breaking rock when drilling with larger bits (Sanjay was trying to use a 5/8" -- so a 3/4" may be too big). Others report that it was much easier and worked fine to use 1/4" or 1/2" rods and bits for this type of project. Here is a post within one of Sanjay's threads on RC about is 500 gallon build:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8280891#post8280891

If you scroll up and down that page, there are some good pics and some good info.

From what I have read, the cure time on the rapid vertical is 6 hours. Carl Swaby (the 150 gallon reef at www.reefvideos.com) used it on his tank and says something similar.

[Kalied20]

I seen some 5/16'' rods on Ebay and bought them. They should be here in about a week or so. It is about 60 feet of them in 3 foot lengths. I know my uncle has a large two handed drill that will hold large bits. But I have the same concern about the rock busting up while using the bigger bits.

Robert

[crumbletop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9188534#post9188534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mamagoose45
I was looking at the one link that Jack (I think) posted of Sanjay's monster tank with the really cool pillars. First off, it's amazing and I'm green with envy in all aspects. Secondly, I realized he's a professor at Penn State. It just so happens that Brian and I will be heading back up to our alma mater next weekend...maybe we can track him down and sneak a peek at the tank? I'm always up for drooling over someone else's tank... Does anyone know if he's on RC?

Yes he is! He is the lighting guru for PAR and other things -- mostly Metal Halide. He has a thread stickied at the top of the equipment and lighting forum.

It would be cool to be able to see his tank! I think there are some tanks he maintains at Penn State that are pretty nice as well.

[mamagoose45]

In the HUB (Student Union Center) there are some super nice, pretty big in-wall tanks that were class gifts. I don't know if he's responsible for them, but if so, he's doing a pretty good job! They get plenty of "have to stop and stare" moments throughout the day.

I PMed him in hopes that he says "Sure, stop on over and see the tanks!" but we'll see....

[n8rad]

Sorry, but i dont understand why you guys want to use the rods, wouldnt it be easier to thorite the rocks together?

[Kalied20]

The rods were an idea to stablize the rock while the thorite dried and would give a lot of strength to the structure if the thorite cracks.

[n8rad]

so when it dries, you just slip out the rods?

[mamagoose45]

As I understand this (someone pipe up and correct me if I'm wrong) the rod stays in to act as a support in case the Thorite breaks. The idea of using Thorite alone would work in theory, so long as the Thorite never breaks. If you pulled the rods out after drying, stuck the pillars in the tank, and one of the Thorite bonds broke, the whole pillar could come tumbling down, crash through the tank = instant flood. I see the rods as insurance.

[Kalied20]

you will want the rods to stay in it to have them stabilize the structure all the time. If something like that fell over in a glass tank....disaster would follow with cracked tank and water everywhere. The rods will help prevent this. We plan on covering the rods with thorite where ever they are visible after all the rocks are placed on them.

[n8rad]

Gotcha!! Good insurance plan :-)

[CKreef]

Thorite rapid vertical 60lb pail $47.81. How many and when do we want it???

[rsteagall]

dood... 60lbs of that would probably do 20 tanks or more. :P

[CKreef]

Thats what i kind of thought lol

[n8rad]

i want some, just not sure how much i need :-)

[Kalied20]

I'll split it with you CK. But, how long does it last in the bucket if not opened? And after it is opened and resealed? I am thinking it will be about 5-6 weeks before I try it.

[CKreef]

Also this product has been discontinued by the maker BASF!!

[n8rad]

http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_concrete.htm

[Kalied20]

While I am thinking about it....
Does anyone have a 30 -40 gallon tank that I can borrow while I try this. It will be about a month of so away before I try it, but want to be prepared. I am going to take everything out of my 90. At least my livestock. Don't want to stress them out too bad.

I got a small 20 gallon, but that is not big enough to hold everything.....laughing at my addiction.

[mamagoose45]

Heard back from sanjay, and it looks like we'll get to see this monster tank this weekend while we're up at PSU...we'll ask plenty of questions while we're there so none of us that are trying this pillar idea manage to injure ourselves or the tanks in the process. :)

[Kalied20]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9220363#post9220363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mamagoose45
Heard back from sanjay, and it looks like we'll get to see this monster tank this weekend while we're up at PSU...we'll ask plenty of questions while we're there so none of us that are trying this pillar idea manage to injure ourselves or the tanks in the process. :)


That will be great....can't wait to hear some of the results they have had with their pilars.

[stevedola]

hows the project progressing?