cosed loop and spray-paint questions

[noobyReefer]

ok...so im so close to finally gettin this tank up and going, i just have a few last things i want to do to it. first being, im gunna paint the back of my tank black...obviously not inside the tank, but outside...and was wondering if any ol' spraypaint will do for the job. or like...will i need a certain type with a certain finish? also...im havin thoughts about tryin a closed loop system since i should have the room to do so in my canopy. is it better to run a seperate pump for the CL itself, or is it "normal" to just have your return pump from the sump to the CL setup? ive seen so many different ways of doing a CL setup, just wanted some opinions on the subject.:confused:

[flat broke]

I've seen more than a couple tanks done with regular ol' Krylon black spray paint. I think that the tank mfgs use something a little thicker, but from inside the tank, I can't tell the difference between, DIY black, and mfg black.

Chris

[noobyReefer]

ahh cool...ill prolly get some semi-gloss black then...something in between a flat and full gloss...cant go wrong with it right?

[tacocat]

Why bother with spray paint? You can brush or roll it on since brush strokes will be a non-issue. Plus, you won't have to worry about the overspray.

[flat broke]

Noob,

What I have on my returns right now isn't a closed loop. A closed loop takes its name from the fact that the water is in a closed system. Unlike your return pump, water in a closed loop doesn't go down the drain to another vessel, then get pumped back up. A closed loop feeds directly off the display water column>pump>back to the display water column (though it might use a flow randomizing device such as an ocean motions) to direct the discharge. So by definition a closed loop will have a dedicated pump.

You should definitely give it some thought before you finalize your tank plans. If the MJs that came with your tank are kind of old, they may not have enough juice to spin a bigger impeller which would negate their ability to be candidates for the Mj mod setup. If you're not already familiar with the maxijet mod, check out this link http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=717034&perpage=25&pagenumber=1 Plenty of people have gotten great results with that little DIY.

The other option would be to setup a closed loop, then run a smaller pump for your return. If you figure that you'll probably have around 40 gallons in total system volume, 5 times turnover through the sump would equate to 200gph after head losses. Depending on how efficient your plumbing setup is for the return, and how tall your stand is going to be, something like an Eheim1260, mag 5 or 7, or oceanrunner 2500 should do well for a submersible/external return pump.

For the closed loop portion, assuming that you didn't run an oceans motions unit, the sky is the limit (or the sandstorm is the limit as the case may be :D ) in terms of how many GPH you can run. If you ran something that would put out 800gph after head loss (which should be minimal if your plumbing is smooth) for the closed loop, and kept that 200gph number for your overflow/return, that would be 1000gph which would be turning over your display 33 times/hr.

Lots of different ways to skin the cat, and people have had success with each of them.

Good luck with it,
Chris

[noobyReefer]

i see i see...well my main concern with the closed loop was how much movement i would have which apparently doesnt matter hiow much flow there is, and seems the more the better depending on my livestock (which can be controlled with a valve anyways...so basically ive got to have a seperate return for the closed loop...all of which would just be drained into and pumped all from the return section of my sump (along with my other pump at around 200gph). it all makes more sense now, i had done some reading on them, but nothing that showed more than just the closed loop itself (no other pumps and what not). i think that may be a good idea...ill see if i cant work this out, sounds promising. also how many "return" sections should i have on my CL system, or does it not really matter, as long as i have 2 or more? i think 2 would be fine, and would allow me to add a SCWD eventually as well correct? it is in fact only a 30g cube, so flow shouldnt be to hard to push around in it.

[Bergovoy]

Nope, the closed loop does not drain anywhere, it is a circuit, closed circuit as it were. Water goes into the inlet, pump then back out to teh outlets, the water does not collect or drain anywhere. If the pump goes off, the water just sits inthe pipe. if you have a power failure, the water will not raise or lower becuse ofthe water in your closed loop.

you need to go look at oceansmotions.com.

good luck

bill

[flat broke]

Bill is on the money. Perhaps a visual aid is needed. Melevs reef is a great site for DIY info. You can find how he did his first "hang on" CL here http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html As far as the SCWD, I'd advise against it. They reduce flow substantially, and the don't last forever. Keep your eyes open for a used Ocean Motions squirt (will handle up to 1000gph) for around $80 and you'll be in business. I think a new squirt only runs like 125-150, but I can appreciate being on a budget. Honestly, if you are pushing big flow (relative to your tank's volume) just pointing the discharge ports of your CL at each other should create enough turbulence to randomize things fairly well. Then if you have some extra $$ down the road, its $30 in PVC and the cost of the OM to ad the squirt if you want.

If you want to run the CL, you'd either drill a second hole for the intake, or do a hang over drain/intake like the one on Melevs site.

Chris

[phishx]

there is so much typing here, i dont think i can get far enough into the thread to retain any good knowledge.
-good night

[ReefMeister2]

I think putting a closed-loop on a 30-gallon tank makes as much sense as putting a class-I tow hitch on your Honda
JMHO

[flat broke]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9179385#post9179385 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefMeister2
I think putting a closed-loop on a 30-gallon tank makes as much sense as putting a class-I tow hitch on your Honda
JMHO

And you would propose? I know where you going with the circulation argument in a small tank. But if powerheads aren't an option (don't know if they are or aren't for noob) would you just run a big return pump and have the sump deal with the added flow through the drain?

Chris

[ReefMeister2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9179386#post9179386 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by flat broke
And you would propose? I know where you going with the circulation argument in a small tank. But if powerheads aren't an option (don't know if they are or aren't for noob) would you just run a big return pump and have the sump deal with the added flow through the drain?

Chris

BINGO, absolutely!
Sadly, the more equipment you add, the more things that can/will go wrong, the more likely you are to fail.

Drilling more holes in your tank, installing more plumbing, running a second pump, adding another return, priming, gluing, sealing, supporting, mounting, plugging, praying, (breath-in, sigh, breath-out) and for WHAT??? You gain nothing your main return pump can't handle with the simplest of setups.

This CL "fad" has gotten downright ludicrous (in my opinion) :rolleyes:

but, then again......it's 3am....insomnia's-a-kickin'....my knee hurts....tomorrow is middle-of-the-week.....and I'm just plain DAMN CRANKY! :mad:

Ok, rant over...
I'm much better now :D

Reefmeister off to beddy bye, (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

[ReefMeister2]

NoobyReefer,
sorry, I'm probably just confusing you even more.

There are a thousand different ways to do this hobby, and flatbroke's ideas are just as valid as mine. I'm just being a bone-head tonight....must be the moon :p

'night

[energy_crisis]

Closed loop helps you maintain high flow throughout your display with minimum equipment in the display and lowers flow through your sump by allowing you to run a smaller pump.

A larger return pump will require you to have more room in your sump for return pump outage when part of the display drains.

[SteveOhh]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9179746#post9179746 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by energy_crisis
A larger return pump will require you to have more room in your sump for return pump outage when part of the display drains.

Not true...................it doesn't matter of you have a 300 GPH or a 3000 GPH return pump, the level in your sump will remain the same on either one. The level in your sump when your return pump is shut off is directly related to how low your return lines are in your tank. If your return lines are 2 inches below the water line in your tank, that 2 inches of water will drain back to your sump when the power to the return pump is shut off.

I've seen reefers using closed loops, but to me they're just a waste of precious energy that can be used elsewhere. Closed loops require a high pressure pump & usually a high pressure pump uses quite a bit of power. I personally would get a couple Tunze 6025's & use 16 watts to move 1200 gph, verses a closed loop which would probably require at least 50+ watts.

JMO

Steve :D

[sharkdude]

Sadly, the more equipment you add, the more things that can/will go wrong, the more likely you are to fail.

LOL! Dr ReefMeister, heal thine self!

I have a mag 7 closed loop on my side 35 cube. Outputs to a 3/4 sea swirl. I like it a lot. and the sea swirl takes up less room and looks better than a big powerhead.

Good points SteveoH on power consumption. that's the trick to balance asthetics and coral health requirements vs costs!

on the spray paint, tape off edges and secure plastic or newspaper for overspray protection. Clean the glass well with some type of glass cleaner and let dry. Use multiple light coats, especially on the first coat, vs lesser heavy coats that will be prone to drips. Drips and uneven spray will be visible from inside at first, but less noticable over time as coralline and growth cover.

[noobyReefer]

awsome...i appreciate your guys input on all this. well...i wasnt really planning on drilling return lines for the CL system (although i do know some glass shop owners who would most likely do it for free, but thats beside the point).i was planning on keeping it fairly simple, but i think that for now i will just leave it simple as can be, and try out my maxi-jets, and then keep an eye out on my electric bill and see if i like it or not, if i can afford it or i just dont like the MJ's, then ill add another pump (even though i cant imagine it adds THAT much every month). and uhh reef, if you need someone to talk to, im here man, you can use my thread to vent anytime! ;)

[ReefMeister2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9181695#post9181695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noobyReefer
and uhh reef, if you need someone to talk to, im here man, you can use my thread to vent anytime! ;)


(Sniff! Sniff!) THANKS MAN! :( (tear drops down cheek)













:D

[ReefMeister2]

double post

[Frankysreef]

I run a manifold from my return pump, it is all about flow. With a manifold you can put the flow anywhere...

Run it above the water so noone can see it. And it is made of pvc... inexpensive to do.

So I guess I don't have a closed loop, I use a manifold... and I love the way it works...

Got the idea from calfo's book.

Frank

[flat broke]

Reefmeister,

No hard feelings with regard to your response. If my question came off as argumentative, I apologize. I was honestly interested in hearing your input.

Noob,
What pump are you going to run for your return pump? If you haven't bought it yet, now is when you have some thinking to do. There is absolutely no one that will argue the engergy efficiency of something like the 6025s which will give you the 1200gph at 18 or so watts as mentioned above, but they have to look right for you and fit your budget.

Feeding everything off a return pump alone can work, and will be slightly more expensive from an energy standpoint, but cheaper in terms of cash outlay.

Something for you to think about. It's not like you're going to fire your tank up and be keeping SPS right off the bat anyhow. In my old 40 gallon, a mag 9.5 provided enough flow to keep most LPS, any softies; and that was with a far less efficient plumbing setup than what you could do with the input from the folks on this board.

Where I'm going is as follows. If you haven't bought a return pump yet, look at something in the ballpark of a mag 9.5, Oceanrunner3500, Eheim 1262. You can use it for your return and main flow source now, then if/when you want/need more flow, you have a couple options. You could mod some Mjs and add those, buy some 6025s and add those, or buy a second pump to use as a CL pump, or buy a second smaller pump to use as a return pump and promote your 900gphish pump to feed the CL.

As for drilling the tank right now, or in the future, there really isn't a reason. If there is is a hole for a drain/standpipe now, and you've got your overflow setup, just buy some scrap acrylic, and mount your return bulkheads from above off the plastic rim of the tank.

Then if you decide you want to go CL in the future, take one of the 4 returns to be the outlet for your return pump in the sump, and put the other 3 as outlets for your CL. Or if you go powerheads, you could leave the front 2 connected to your return, and run your powerheads from the rear of the tank.

Good luck with it, now post up some pics of that tank, so we can see what you've got for an overflow setup etc. :) Trust me, it's better to get 1000 opinions and sift through them for insight, than to operate in a relative vacum only to find out there was info out there, or a second set of eyes that could have caught a potential problem.

Good luck with it,
Chris

[energy_crisis]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9180360#post9180360 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SteveOhh
Not true...................it doesn't matter of you have a 300 GPH or a 3000 GPH return pump, the level in your sump will remain the same on either one. The level in your sump when your return pump is shut off is directly related to how low your return lines are in your tank. If your return lines are 2 inches below the water line in your tank, that 2 inches of water will drain back to your sump when the power to the return pump is shut off.

Steve :D

That's right. I didn't think of the level of the return line under the water's surface...I was thinking of the volume above the overflow level being higher when the pump is bigger.

[noobyReefer]

ok well...i havent purchased a return pump for my sump yet, so ill see if i cant fit something nice into my budget. as for pics ill see what i can do (ive got to find my camera). my idea was to get something like a mag 7 to stick into my sump, and for now ill try my 2 maxi-jet 900 powerheads to push around some water in the tank for the time being. any other in sump return pumps i should look into, i hear the mag series are reliable and cheap for my purpose, specially since it will be in sump. ive only got like at max 5' to push up, plus any bends...and even after that i figure ill still have more than enough flow for the time being. this way i can check my power bill and see if i cant afford one more pump to make myself a decent CL system. anyone ever use one of these pumps?
http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=VA2719
that may just be a better idea for me...more gph around the same price range so it seems. basically the better bang for the buck...thats what im talkin about. ;)

[SteveOhh]

Look into the Quiet One return pumps...................I run a 4000 on my 60 thru 1" pvc & I still have to throttle it back..................Some say they add heat to the tank, but it's a heck of a lot quieter then my Mag 7 that's on my frag system................

Steve :D

[noobyReefer]

i did some reading on those quiet one pumps...ive heard they are not so quiet, and heard of some overheating and stopping, and just read how they tend to have problems (not to say they all do of course).

[flat broke]

I've never used the Via Aqua pumps, and I don't know anyone who has, so I couldn't give you any input. I couldn't find the wattage for the pump, so it makes it hard to budget how much it may cost to run. According to the chart on Marine Depot's page, 5' of head on the 3300 is a little less than 500gph. If that pump has a good performance record, it'd be a little on the high side for a return used in conjuction with a CL, but okay for a return by itself because you have to compromise more flow through the sump to get higher flow in the display.

I've been checking into pumps in similar GPH ranges, and one that keeps popping up is the Ocean runner 3500. They seem to have a good reputation for being quiet and efficient. People have run them both inside and out of the sump. They are on sale right now http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=14677&Ntt=ocean%20runner&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1 If you put the 3500 on a CL, you'd be pushing 30 times turnover without factoring whatever flow your return pump brings into the game. You'd definitely want to disperse that over 3 or 4 outlets to decrease the pressure of the flow. If you wanted to tame things down a little, the OR 2500 pushes 650gph and that would put you around 20 times turnover on your cl, then with a touch more flow from a small return pump, you could easily be at 30 times turnover in the display with a lower turnover rate on the sump.

Did you buy one of those cubes from Sam? If so, I'll dig up the pics from one of his posts to see where the bulkhead was located, so I can see if my drain/overflow idea would work out. Of course, pics never hurt either. :D

Chris

[flat broke]

Noob,

I was surfing for other info and stumbled across this thread.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=912378&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

I like the idea of using the 6" pvc for an overflow. It's too small for bigger tanks with higher sump flow rates, but might work on your 30 as long as you don't try to push a ton of water through the sump. You could find some 6" ABS sewer pipe (already black) pretty cheap. Then depending on where that bulkhead is, we might be able to get you setup with a modified short rise standpipe.

Chris

[noobyReefer]

yes ive read that entire thread before i ever bought my tank. the thing is...i havent drilled any holes in my tank yet, like i said, a fellow reefer gave me a CPR cs100 HoB overflow (which turns out to have an 800gph flow rate). i did a little bit of looking into return pumps for my sump, and the OR3500 or even 2500 would both work for the return from my sump. i just found the wattage on that via aqua pump...980gph @ 75w. a mag 7 runs at 700gph @ 70w. an OR 3500 runs at 900gph @ 65w.an OR2500 is 650gph @ 38w. a quiet one 3000 runs at 780gph @ 40w (but is $65 as well: not in my $50-60 range). a rio2500 is 780gph @ 55w. then again we could pull a rio17 HF which at 6' has a rate of 660gph @ 55w. i will at the VERY max be pushing 6' from sump to returns in tank...granted a few bends here and there...but atm im really keeping my eye on the OR3500 and rio17HF. they sound like the "best" candidates for my return pump. if i decide to make a CL setup, i will probably get something thats low wattage...like the OR2500, but as i said for now ill be using my MJ900 powerheads to do some testing. and flat...i didnt get one of those 22g cubes from sam, i have a 33g cube...i got it from another reefer on here. its an oceanic 33g cube (20.5" x 18.5" x 21.5"). my stand is 32" tall, and the canopy i built is 12" tall. as far as pics im working on it, sorry for the delay, i cant seem to find my camera lol. its around here somewhere, when i find it ill post pics. i go in today to put the order in for my sump as well, cant wait...:D

[flat broke]

Cool deal on the sump order.

I've owned Rios, but not Ocean Runners. There's a reason I'm not looking at Rios for anything I'm doing now. ;) Noisy inexpensive little buggers.

I'f you wanna run powerheads to supplement, I say get the 3500, when you plumb it, put a ball valve on the outlet so you can choke it back if need be. Run that to your returns and see how you like it.

Can't wait to see the pics.

Chris

[phishx]

MAYN... GET SOME WORK DONE AND STOP TALKING ALREADY!@!!!! WE WANNA SEE SOME PICS!

:D

[hawaiian_boi]

use this for a overflow...real easy
http://barraquatic.com/overflows.php

[noobyReefer]

you guys are so damn sexy...phishx...if you want to fight you can come to p-dale sucka ;)...i know its been a while since you boxed a skinny white boy. maybe we can get a betting system setup on RC eh...but to be honest...i think hawaiian_boi would take us both. :D

[hawaiian_boi]

you know i would ......as soon as i turn green its over....body parts everywhere

[noobyReefer]

lol...scary thought...like the time when rudolph couldnt play anymore reindeer games. btw i really like that overflow idea...kinda sexy little ting

[SteveOhh]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=9849&N=2004+113041

Quiet One 3000...................$39.99.......................& while your at it, Drs. has IO Salt 160 gallon bucket for $29.49 & they don't rape you on shipping charges either...................

Steve :D

[noobyReefer]

thanks steveohh...appreciate the link, thats a nice price actually. although i heard that having TOO much flow from your pump is not such a great idea...for instance, i should be running something thats gunna push about 5 times my tank size in gph. so in my case it would be 150gph after all bends and 6' push height. can anyone vouch otherwise to shoot this down? i mean, it makes sense to me, considering my HoB overflow says its capable of pushing 800gph, but i cant imagine thats from gravity feed. so i figure at tops ill be intaking about 200gph with a CPR cs100 overflow, and as far as my pump if im pushing 600gph after height and bends...wouldnt that be a bit off? i mean considering im only losing 200gph and then im pushing back 600gph....that logically would make my tank overflow. i know that water movement is important, but keep in mind this is only a 30g cube. also, im having thoughts of trying a mudd sump, anyone ever used one? or does anyone have anything to say about them?

[SteveOhh]

Run a ball valve & throttle back your pump if you get too much flow.................or bump down to a QO 2000 or 1200 (although I'd go bigger just in case you decide to run more flow thru your sump........can't do that if you buy the "exact" size pump)

I think you'll get more then 200 gph out of a 1" drain.....................more along the lines of 400-600 GPH..............You'll be suprised how fast the overflow can drain......even on a gravity drain

Steve :D

[flat broke]

Noob,

Steve's right, don't go small on the pump. This is the tradeoff when you run your return for flow. You will have more water running through the sump. Something to think about though, 10x turnover for you vs someone running an 80 gallon system is two different things. For you that's 300gph, vs 800 for an 80 gallon setup. Sure it's relative to tank size, but 300gph sounds a lot quieter than 800 when it comes down the overflow.

Also, if you run a skimmer that's oversized for your tank, it won't have as hard of a time keeping up with the shorter dwell time for the water in the sump. Most people would probably say something like an ASM G1 would be overkill in your situation, but it will work and give you some room to grow.

I say buy something like the OR2500 or 3500, or a QO2000 or 3000 as Steve suggested. Spend a couple of bucks on a ball valve and be able to dial in the flow. I know you're using thos Maxijets for flow too, but it'd be better to have more options than less options down the road.

As an example, using the head loss calc on the home page, a QO3000 plumbed with 1" (I picked that arbitraily, but also so I didn't have to do a compound computation to account for different pipe sizes) assuming 2 outlets, 5 feet of vertical, 2.5 feet of horizontal, 6 90s and 4 45s, one union, and one ball valve comes out at 457gph. By the time you calculate in your sump volume, you're not far off from 10x turnover, and you can still choke the pump down with a ball valve. Once you know how your're going to plumb it, you can plug any pipe diameter and pump in the dropdown into the calculator and see where you'd stand.

In case you were interested, my figures for pipe were based off 1" bulkheads secured in acrylic squares above the two front corners, sch 80 45s suspened by the bulkheads with sch80 nipples( the sch80 because of the grey color, sch 40 90s on top each bulkhead running towards the back of the tank, 2 sch40 90s pointing towards the center of the back of the tank, a sch 40 "T" (counts as 2 90s) that sits in the middle of the back of the tank (or offset to one side or another to clear drain plumbing), the "T" goes down towards the sump where there are 2 45s spaced apart to get the pipe down to the pump in a diagonal fashion, then the ball valve and a union right at the pump so you can easily disconnect it from the system for cleaning. This puts the flow at the front of the tank pointing towards your rock, and leaves room in the rear for your powerheads to push some flow forward while still being able to keep them on the back wall. It's not fancy, but it'll work.

Now lets see some pics and hear about your progress :D

Chris

[noobyReefer]

hmm...im gunna have to see what i can do...i dont want to buy a pump, and then have to return it cus i flooded my room due to a mishap. sorry bout the pics...im working on it, my sump is SUPPOSED to be ordered by monday, and here by friday. when i find my camera...ill for sure get some pics up and running. but you know i like to keep you on the edge. makes you come back for more. :)

[noobyReefer]

oh yea...also...i heard that throttling back your return pump will dramtically reduce the life of your pump. im sure theres some truth in this...but was wondering if its even a concern i should keep in mind?

[phishx]

IVE BEEN IN THE GYM FOoZ!

[flat broke]

I can't answer that for fact one way or another. What I can tell you is that we were over at Wrightnow's house today, and just for kicks, we through a KillAWatt on one of his pumps, took a baseline and then choked down the inlet. The wattage draw dropped in relation to the reduction of flow on the inlet side. We then repeated the test closing down the valve on the outlet side and got a similar result. It would stand to reason that the amount of watts utilized are directly related to how much water is moved (at least for his external type pumps). If the pump is drawing less watts or load, I'm not sure how it would prematurely wear out the pump, save for a possible build up of heat. Just interesting info that I thought I'd pass on.

Chris

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9202120#post9202120 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by noobyReefer
oh yea...also...i heard that throttling back your return pump will dramtically reduce the life of your pump. im sure theres some truth in this...but was wondering if its even a concern i should keep in mind?

[noobyReefer]

cool...ive still been debating on which pump im going to get...whatever it is, ill for sure let you guys know...i really appreciate all your help, its really been something to get me thinking and has given me alot of insight with plumbing/ pumps/ alot of stuff...thanks guys, if you get more info, let me know, i love it.

[phishx]

BLAH BLAH BLAH... dude... get it done... show some pics already :D