LED for reminder

[melev]

Okay, let me begin with this statement: I know nothing about electronics, so if something works once I'm done, I just start counting days to see how long it will last. *sigh*

Sometimes when I turn on my IceCap fans to cool the tank down, I forget and leave them running. I can't use the Aqua Controller II to turn them on and off because the x-10 technology burns up the DC power supplies. I only have to use them occasionally, but there are nights when I wonder why the tank is down to 79F or less. The IceCap fans are so quiet when running in the lowest mode, I don't hear them. Usually the next day I'll figure it out when the lights are on and I hear them spinning at warp speed.

So, I wanted to add a LED to just give me a clue if they are running. That way when I walk by at 3am, I'd have an indicator to remind me to shut them off if necessary. I asked some DFWMAS members for some help, and Russ talked me through it. Thanks to Russ' help, I have a working LED now. Here are all the pictures.

First of all, let me tell you it is SO easy to blow out an LED, I can't believe it. Russ was helping me ascertain which side was the positive side on a 9v battery (via telephone). Sounds simple, right? It turned on for a split second and that was the end of that $1.49 LED. :rolleyes: My fault, since I wasn't using the resistor during the test. :o

Okay, so here are my parts. The resistors and two LEDs were under $5 from Radio Shack. Take note, I was told to use a 600 Ohm resistor, but they didn't have them so I got 680. I figured the bulb would be a tad dimmer as it wouldn't get as much juice. I was right.

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/resistors.jpg

The LEDs weren't 3.3V as recommended either. They were 1.7V, but I was told the more important part was 20mA anyway.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/leds.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_oo.jpg


I got out my tools. Soldering iron, heat shrink tubing, etc.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/soldering_iron.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/solder_area.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/resistor.jpg


I have a feeling if you leave the soldering iron on the LED too long, you'll send too much heat up the diode's wire and cook it. I tried to work fast, and it was a tad sloppy. Here's the first solder, connecting the 680 Ohm resistor to the positive side of the LED.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/solder_resistor.jpg

[melev]

Continued...

Then I connected the other end of the resistor to the positive wire going to the power supply.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_solder1.jpg

Soldering on the other side, quickly yet again.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_solder.jpg

Quick test.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_test.jpg

Next, I used a candle's flame to shrink the tubing over the soldered connections. Just keep it moving over the flame, never too long in one spot.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_heatshrink2.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_heatshrink3.jpg

Once done, I had to drill a hole in the fan bracket to hold the LED in position. This is an older bracket I made a long time ago, back when looks didn't count. :lol: The LED is clear, so it is almost invisible in this image, facing directly at the viewer.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_in_fan_oo.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/fan_bracket_f.jpg

From the backside.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_installed_back.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/fan_bracket_b.jpg

[melev]

Conclusion....

The power supplies are a mess, but it is what it is. One runs one fan, and the other runs the fan with the new LED.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/power_supplies.jpg

And turned on.
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_in_fan0.jpg

http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/led_in_fan1.jpg

Done!
http://melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/fan_bracket.jpg

[BeanAnimal]

Melev...

Just a thought. Why not use the AquaController to flop a 120V relay and plug the fans DC supply into the wall. You can leave the LED there for safetys sake.

Also another way to determine polarity... the LONG leg of the LED is the Anode (postive).

So you ket the magic smoke out of one huh... ohh well.

[BeanAnimal]

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/rc/melev.jpg

[sunkool]

you could also use a 555 timer to turn your fans off after so long. or you gould have them come on for so long then off for so long on a cycle. say 10 min. on then off for 2 hours. A 555 timer curcuit can be built for about $10 and is not that hard. I have a calculator that makes it easy to figure out the times.

[BeanAnimal]

Why go through the trouble when the Aquacontroller can run the fans based on temperature? Don't get me wrong, I love 555 timers and love to play with them... but in this case the best solution is the expensive temperature controller that Melev already owns!

On a side note, though 555s are neat... for almost the same cost and part count you can build a small pic or atmel timer that is much more accurate and much more versitile :) 555s were 1950's uC technology is NOW!

[melev]

Hmm. I do have some relays here that came with my AquaHub.com's DIY ATO kit.

That would be really nice if I could do that Bean. My problem has been the x-10 modules don't shut off, they turn down (67V from 119V) and that burns up the power supply. If you could tell me how to run the relay after an x-10 that measures the proper amount of juice, I probably could transition to having the fans come on automatically.

[BeanAnimal]

I was not aware that the X-10 modules did not fully shut off. Can you please get me some info or linksk regarding the units used with the Aquacontroller? I know that there are x-10 appliance modules that are relay based instead of SSR based. Is the AC fully x-10 compliant or do you need to use proprietary modules sold by neptune?

[BeanAnimal]

Just to clear up my thought process...

I was assuming that the problems running the DC fans was due to the Aqua using triac based SSRs to switch the AC. The assumption being that resulting choppy waveform being fed to the cheap PSU of the fans was causing a LOT of ripple in the DC signal and thus either hurting the vreg in the DC PSU or the DC motors themselves.

[melev]

What I can do is take a picture of my current modules, as well as the power reading when "off" and "on". The rest I don't know.

It appears to me (Mr Non Electronics) that AC power isn't affected by low current, but DC power is ruined by the same.

[rcmike]

Hmmm... the x10 modules should be able to turn all the way off. Maybe it is some setting with the Aquacontroller?

[BeanAnimal]

The meter reading when "off" may not be a true indication of what is really going on. If the output of the module is triac based, then it may float when open ended. With a resistive load attached the voltage will not be "67V". The way to measure the voltage would be with a known working LOAD attached and the output in the OFF mode. In other words even at 67V an AC load would be in a "brown out" condition. The little DC transformers are causing an issue with the output and now allowing it to turn off and instead allowing to float -OR- the unit is burning up the power supplies due to the output waveform and what the power supply is doing with it.

The best thing to do would be to grab a relay with a COIL and CONTACTS rated at 120VAC. Attach the coil to the controllers output and cycle it. If kicks the coil and the coil does not chatter the contacts, then it will work just fine. The relay will allow you to power the fan supply from the wall instead of the solid state output of the controller. The solid state output of the controller will only be used to kick the relay.

BUT before we even look into that...

If the controller is fully x-10 compliant, then the easiest method would be to simply use an appliance module instead of a lamp module. The appliance module has a mechanical relay instead of a solid state relay :)

[melev]

I only use appliance modules. I'll go take a few pictures.

[Phyxius]

melev,
Nice work on the LED and good idea!!. If you do it again there is a quick way to dissipate heat from the LED when soldering. Clip a alligator clip on the wire right above where you are soldering. It helps to wick away the heat when you are soldering. I know you barely have to apply heat to the joint but it does help. I had to solder 80 LEDS to resistors and did this everytime and they never got hot.

[melev]

On
http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/on.jpg

Off - right at 60V
http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/07/02/off.jpg

[melev]

Thanks for the tip Mike. I appreciate it, and I even have one of those.

[BeanAnimal]

Alligator clips are for weenies.... Real gurus are fast enough to not need heatsinks. The rest of use use our fingers to hold the part. After a few bad burns, it does not hurt anymore.

[BeanAnimal]

Okay here goes...

LAMP modules allow a small current to flow. This is how they sense "manual overide" so you can turn the lamp on without changing the status of the x-10 device. Some appliance modules work the same way.

You can modify they modules to defeat this sensing current.

I will find a link for you.

[rcmike]

Ah yes, I remember doing that when I had mine set up.

[BeanAnimal]

http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm

Look at the "defeating local current sensing" section.

http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1177 Some more info.

Time to get that soldering iron back out :)

[BeanAnimal]

http://www.neptunesys.com/hardwareFAQ.htm#X10PROBLEM

that may help also.

[Cuby2k]

I had one very bad experience with x-10's. A 400+ unit of HEPA fan filter modules in Panang, Malaysia that would not restart after shutting off. EVERY single one had to be replaced then the entire control system was scraped because it was unreliable. X-10's will have to prove better reliability before I will gamble with them again.

A little off topic but it hit a nerve.

[BeanAnimal]

it is 40 year old technology :)

[melev]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9156311#post9156311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
http://www.neptunesys.com/hardwareFAQ.htm#X10PROBLEM

that may help also.

Bean, the first link goes nowhere, but this one above matches what I have. I don't see anything that says this is an AM466, but everything looks identical to me so I'll give that a snip and see what happens.

[melev]

I snipped it, reassembled it, and still get 60V. :(

[BeanAnimal]

I wonder why you are having problems with the first link?

In any case, you may want to seek out one of the newer x-10 appliance modules as indicated in the forum on the second link. I will do some research for you in the meantime.

[melev]

I'm sure they are relatively easy to locate online, right? Ebay or x10.com, right?

The first link said "Site Not Available" when I clicked on it a few minutes ago.

[BeanAnimal]

http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/ try that maybe?

What is the model number of the module? The circuit board? Is it exactly the same as the second photo on the neptune site?

[BeanAnimal]

yeah x10 stuff is available everywhere. The home automation sites carry it. I am sure there are a lot of x10 gurus that are willing and able to help. I don't mess with it because of the problems such as this :)

[BeanAnimal]

Here is another site with some good info
http://www.laureanno.com/x10-mod3.html

[melev]

Mine looks just like this one: AM466 from NeptuneSystem's site.
http://www.neptunesys.com/cm466.jpg

I just noticed on that other Geocities site that it is recommended to cut a different spot.

http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/appmod-3.jpg

So I can do that, but what happens to the one I destroyed already? :lol:

[rcmike]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9156835#post9156835 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
yeah x10 stuff is available everywhere. The home automation sites carry it. I am sure there are a lot of x10 gurus that are willing and able to help. I don't mess with it because of the problems such as this :)

Same here. I got tired of lights coming on in the middle of the night and stuff like that.:p

[BeanAnimal]

As noted in this thread... snipping hte lead to "PIN 7" the current sense pin does not work and the diode in the current sense loop needs to be cut. After looking at the schematic this makes sense (no pun). The jumper disables the "sense" function of the chip, but does not remove the sense current. Cutting the diode does (by biasing the transistor that controls the loop current).

Anyway... http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.basics/browse_thread/thread/d3caaba6d716249b/405bcbe268ccd7b8?lnk=st&q=x10+voltage+when+off&rnum=18&hl=en#405bcbe268ccd7b8

Bean

[BeanAnimal]

You did not destroy it. You "could" replace the jumper... but it is not likely needed anyway, as you are not going to be using the current sense function after you cut the diode :)

[melev]

Okay, I'm going back in. ;)

[melev]

I cut the other part, and it still reads 60V when off. Oh well. At least I have my little LED to tell me when my fans are on, as was my plan and the purpose for this thread.

[BeanAnimal]

Do you have something expendable that you can plug in? It may read 60V still but there should not be enough current to run anything and the rapid on-off cycling should be eliminated.

Maybe just a wall wart with a resistor and an LED for testing?

[melev]

I don't know that it would run on and off rapidly. I think it is just in low mode until I turn it on again. I did turn it on and off to make sure it wasn't some residual reading.

I don't really have anything handy that I'm willing to nuke for the sake of argument. If it doesn't read 0, I'm going to assume that the wall wort will burn up just like it did last time I tried that.

[BeanAnimal]

Fully understandable... Maybe somebody has in idea of what modules work better... otherwise it looks like your going to have to rely on your LED indicator :)

Sorry that this seems to have been an exercise in futility.

[Cuby2k]

What was the deal with 40 year old technology again?

:)

[rcmike]

http://www.smarthome.com/remote_entire_home.html

Read the brief history.