Please help. Does this look like good Live Rock or Bad LR?

[MarineGirl411]

I just want to know if this looks like good LR or bad LR. It was supposed to be Ultra Fiji Premium. It doesn't look Premium to me. Maybe I'm wrong. What do you all think? Also, what are the black marks? Sponges? I tried scrubbing most of them off, but I see I missed quite a bit. I also have a dead peanut worm (I think) hanging out of one of the holes. Yes, I'm going to remove it. Let me know. I'd really appreciate it. TY

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-117S.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-120S.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-114S.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-116S.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-118S-1.jpg

[blot60]

It looks good to me. How many lbs is that? There is gonna be some decay on it from the shipping. It will cycle.

[benray4fun]

It's decent live rock, but you're not gonna see how good it really is until
you start cycling the tank and it gets established. Once you get the tank some inhabitants the rock will start developing some more color as
the sponges, corline and other microbes start growing back..."nice."

[nmprisons]

looks pretty average to me

[MarineGirl411]

So it doesn't look like Super Ultra Premium Fiji? =( It is 66 pounds. I just put them in there after cleaning them and I didn't have time to Aquascape. I paid around $230.00. Is that not a good price? I got it from www.livestockusa.org. It's supposed to be Ultra Premium Fiji. If you look at their pics compared to mine, theirs looks a lot better. Not what I got.

[nmprisons]

It is hard to really tell from the pics. It is all about shape and density when it comes to liverock. I always encourage people to compare their shapes and prices to the stuff on premiumaquatics.com to see if they got a good deal. At this point, it doesn't matter, though, because you have it.

[MarineGirl411]

someone recently ordered from Premium aquatics on rc and their rock looked like base rock. I guess mine does too though, anyway I had heard good things about livestockusa.org on RC

[Craig Lambert]

Looks like good sizes to me, and that's probably what you're paying for. From what I've read all, (or almost all) of the fiji live rock that comes into the US is from the same importer. (Walt Smith & Co).

It doesn't make much difference who you're ordering from unless you are buying fully cured live rock, in which case it has been curing in the sellers tanks for a period of time. Also, my understanding is that all of the fiji rock comes through LAX, so the farther it travels from southern California following arrival, the longer it's out of water.

[blot60]

Never think you are gonna get what you see in pics when it comes to live rock. You may get somethin close or maybe even better. But most of the time its not as good.

[MarineGirl411]

After going back and looking at their website it really disappoints me. It's not Walt Smith. It states right on their website. Go to www.livestockusa.org. Look at their pictures. Then look at mine. I'm going to write them and tell them it looks bad. It looks like base rock. :mad: There's 66 pounds

[benray4fun]

I ordered fiji premium and lalo live rock and the lalo looked better right out of the box..."lot's of colors." three months later the lalo looks like crap and the fiji looks better..."way more coraline algae." Don't be too quick to judge..."you have to give it time." The main thing is that you have the filtering capacity and that's what matters most with live rock, plus you get the natural look in your tank and that's what you want..."enjoy it", you won't be disappointed in the long run...:)

The pics you see in there website were taken when the rocks came right from the ocean most likely and were never out of the water very long. If you were to take that same rock and ship it, it will not look like the pic once it gets to your door..."you have to cure it." Or for a lack of a better word "NURSE" the rock back to it's healthy form.

[MarineGirl411]

=*(

[Waxxiemann]

To me, it looks very much like what they have on the website although you just don't have any coraline algae on there yet. I agree that you should wait and keep your calcium up and your rock will look sweet in no time.

If that were me (I live in Canada) I'd have to pay about $600 (about $500 US) for that, so it seems like a good deal to me. Nice big porus looking pieces.

Good luck.

[benray4fun]

LMAO..."you're too funny." I know you're frustrated, but that's the way it is for most, if not all of us. When I got my rocks, they were as dry as the desert and as soon as I put'm in the tank all the color bleached off of'm...I was really disappointed. As they say in this hobby..."nothing good happens fast" and now I have a hitch hiker...a mantis shrimp!
So be carefull what you wish for...;)

I agree with WAX..."nice big show pieces", no doubt they are some physically good looking pieces...:eek2:

[Waxxiemann]

I REALLY like the Vanuatu rock... It's nice. I can get the same stuff up here as well. Seems like it's from the same place as well because they stuck a "permit fee" on it up here as well..... shoulda got it when it was $1 per pound cheaper.



I say "as well" a lot

http://www.livestockusa.org./VANUATULIVEROCK.html

[Vitaly]

<B>MarineGirl411</B>,

I would not feel ripped off.

1) I think you got a good price on the rock (~ 3.50/lb).

2) The rock that is in your pictures looks very porous and has some nice shape.

3) It does not look like what is on their website...but give it some time and I am sure it will. Their picture is of rock that has probably been in a reef tank for months/years. In time your rock will be populated and covered with coralline too.

Just my thoughts.

[drummereef]

Once you aquascape it a bit it's going to look fantastic.

[nemodude]

Try using some PurpleUp. It's a corraline algae accelerator that adds calcium and other elements to the water that helps corraline algae grow. You add one capful for every 50 gallons of water. In a month or so your rock will be covered in pink and purple corraline like the rock that you saw in the pictures.

[Im14abeer]

I'd say it has good potential. The only thing I don't like about it is its kinda "blocky." (I have to stop myself right there, I don't know if blocky is a word.)

ahem..

So, anyway, try to keep the ammonia and nitrite down with water changes, get the lights/filtration/flow running, and patiently await the grandure of your rocks.

Besides, you're only looking "skin deep." (this pun made possible by google) In the end, it's all the microscopic "pores" where the bacteria hide that you bought it for anyway. (thank you again google.)

[MarineGirl411]

On a website www.drmacscorals.com, they suggested doing a high SG dip. I did that for about 3-5 mins. They said to raise it to 1.035 to get rid of mantis and other bad hitch hikers. Well, I got rid of one. It was a coral eating snail. Would have never of found it other wise because it was so small. Now they are telling me that I killed everything in the rocks because of the high SG dip. Did I? There are still some peanut worms in the rock. Now, I'm so depressed. They told me I should not have done that because now I killed everything. I killed the spores for the Coral Line Algae. I don't know what to do.

[benray4fun]

Guys, everything in the rock grows back in time..."just start your flow and your filters and watch'm come to life over time." You guys are over reacting..."get some experience while you're layin back enjoyin it."
It's actaully funny and entertaining hearing you guys wine...lmao

[MarineGirl411]

I don't think it's funny at all. =*( This guy just told me too bad. There is another post in another forum where this guy ordered 75 pounds of Vavua and he was only sent 50 pounds. The guy told him the same thing. Too bad. So I am a little upset. Plus I found a coral eating snail in it which I wouldn't have found without the dip.

[benray4fun]

Now being shorted 25 pounds is NOT funny, who ever this kid is has to deal with this issue..."no doubt."
On the other hand, live rock is not like fish if it arrives dead..."you can send it back!" With live rock, you can't send it back, it basically comes dead with all the life practically guaranteed to grow back if you don't screw it up. Once you order live rock you're pretty much on your own to cycle it, rid it of pests and revive the rocks while under your care. Some rocks look and bounce back better than others, even if it's the same (fiji premium) rocks for instance.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8901354#post8901354 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nemodude
Try using some PurpleUp. It's a corraline algae accelerator that adds calcium and other elements to the water that helps corraline algae grow. You add one capful for every 50 gallons of water. In a month or so your rock will be covered in pink and purple corraline like the rock that you saw in the pictures.

DO NOT USE PURPLEUP.


Go read randy's forum, and the thread on this stuff. It is at best, useless, and at worst, a tank crasher.


Just keep your calcium and alkalinity high.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8906259#post8906259 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by benray4fun
Now being shorted 25 pounds is NOT funny, who ever this kid is has to deal with this issue..."no doubt."
On the other hand, live rock is not like fish if it arrives dead..."you can send it back!" With live rock, you can't send it back, it basically comes dead with all the life practically guaranteed to grow back if you don't screw it up. Once you order live rock you're pretty much on your own to cycle it, rid it of pests and revive the rocks while under your care. Some rocks look and bounce back better than others, even if it's the same (fiji premium) rocks for instance.

Theres an easy solution to being shorted 25 lbs. You save the email where he says "too bad," and you stop payment on the credit card.


Seriously, live rock is the most overpriced thing in this hobby. I've got 10lbs or so in my tank, and 50lbs or so of stuff that was Dry Rock. Dont worry about it, it'll all look great in a year if you keep the tank well.

[flfirefighter13]

I second rich, avoid purple up, us a bottle of patients and the rock will look fine. Even if the high SG did kill most stuff.... which I dont think it would..... Some stuff surely survived and will start growing once the rock is cured. LR never looks like the stuff in their pictures after it is shipped unless its shipped fully submerged, which would make the cost WAYYYYY high.

[benray4fun]

MarineGirl, your live rock is going to be fine, believe me. Follow the instructions that came along with the rocks and you should see a steady improvement.
Most places hype how much better their rocks are over everyone elses and put up these perfect looking rock pics full of color and life, but that's not what you get more often than not. It's just great marketing on their part to bate customers. What you saw in those pics is what you have..."believe that," it's just gonna take time to see'm regenerate. I'd say three months to a year at most, but you're gonna see improvement steadily..."just like me"...
Sorry I thought it was funny...

[Al]

MarineGirl, I'm sorry about your experience but it saves others (like me) from considering livestockusa. Live rock is really about the shapes, and your rock looks like rounded blocks to me - not the best shapes.
Don't worry about the effects of the dip. It doesn't penetrate far into the rock and most life on the rock will survive. I know because ten years ago when I didn't know better I gave a shipment of live rock a freshwater dip. Some things were driven out of the rock but a lot survived.
All the same - Anyone that tells you "too bad" when you have a valid complaint deserves at least to have trouble getting paid. Got your credit card phone number ready? Make that call.
And thanks for the warning.

[MarineGirl411]

Yes it's blocks. Wish I would have known people have had trouble with them before I bought it. I had only heard good things. Oye

[benray4fun]

I'd love to have those "BLOCKS"...

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8907790#post8907790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
Wish I would have known people have had trouble with them before I bought it.

Well..................a couple of the pieces don't look too bad. Nothing like what they have on their website (I checked). If you can't get a satisfying solution from your credit card company, you might want to sell the rock you don't like to another reefer and order a few more pieces from another dealer. If that's a 40 gallon breeder you have you don't need a lot of rock anyway, not much height in that tank size. Dr Mac's corals has good rock - bought some from them a few years ago. You want some branchy or shelflike pieces - something to open up that reef structure some.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

I hate to hear things like this, and even worse hate to have to make public such a discussion. However we have no choice it seems, since all being told is not true.

First, no one ever heard "too bad" from our company.
Second, no one ever got a box of Vavau with 50 lbs..
It can't be ordered that way. 75 lb. boxes is it, though
they may vary 5 lbs. either way (and we promptly refund or
ask for the balance). I would like the link to that thread,
if MG can reference that?

Third, of 5 e-mails we received from MarineGirl over 24 hours,
totalling 35 lines, we responded with 2 emails totalling over
25 lines. I can hardly term that "too bad", and think it is quite unfair to characterize it as such.

Here are some things I cut out of the emails MarineGirl sent us.
Quoted verbatim:

There were tons of little black bugs and
ear wig looking bugs crawling around on the lr.
There were these things. Of course 2 of them are snails,
brown looking things? Worms of some sort? Flat worms?
They don't look like bristleworms.

(note: of course the "bugs" are marine creatures of some sort)

The rock has very nice shapes. Thank you very much.

I read online where if you place it in a container
with an sg of 1.035 potential predators will come out of the rock
The sg in the tank is only at 1.023. I couldn't raise it higher.
It wouldn't raise even when I put more salt in. After the rock
was in there, I put 1 more cup of salt in the tank. Do you think
I shouldn't have done that and that's why it's black?
Or is it from the charcoal? I'm just so afraid I did something wrong.

I showed others on Reef Central and they totally agree with me.

The pieces are nice shapes, but the rock looks like base rock

~ ~ ~ end of quoted material from e-mails received here ~ ~ ~

All of our rock pictures were taken of boxes on the way
to customers. No two boxes of live rock are alike. No picture
on our website is artificially colored. If someone says to us
the most important thing is shape, than I would probably not
steer them toward Fiji, yet, some of the best pieces I've ever
seen are from Fiji. And our rock is not "WS" rock. It is a
small "mom and pop" (family/tribal) operation we support.

We have a curing live rock page on our website, which was one of the
first of its sort on the web, and been much copied now. If someone
chooses to ignore that and do it "their way" ~ 1.035 salinty dips ~
then we obviously can not tell you what will happen, or guarantee our
product will be the same when you decide to alter it. We surely should
not be held responsible, or subject to what borders on slander, when
someone chooses their own methods over "manufacturer" recommendations.

Obviously rock with all the life described above is not "base rock".
Pouring cups of salt into the tank is recommended where, for what?

As I said in private e-mails, I think MG may have seriously stunned
and "set back" the rock, however in time, I am sure it will be good
live rock. It will be longer than had it not been put in water nearly
twice as salty as the ocean, but it will make it, and be good, as many who
obviously know what they are doing have said here in this thread.

In looking at say your 2nd and 3rd pictures the shapes look GREAT to me.
I see a cave or tunnel, lots of relief. The color seems faded but after
double salinity, we should expect that. It will all come back fine.

birdfish

[John Q Reefer]

Gah Thats too bad ya got such a raw deal. Tell ya what, I just dont feel right a rightous person as yourself having to deal with that rock. Tell ya what im gonna do you just pack up all that cheesy rock and ship it to me and ill find a place for it somewhere in my ghetto reef so you dont have to bear looking at it anymore (heheeee snickers) somehow I doubt I shall be getting a PM asking my shipping addy!

that rock will be simply the bomb in 3 months fear not. heh I got 2 cinder blocks, an empty colt 45 can, and a snub nose 38 all covered in coraliine in my tank!

[MarineGirl411]

I personally don't find this funny. I also have been told I did the right thing. If you go to www.drmacscorals.com he gives the directions to do the High Salinity Dip for a couple of mins. Birdfish you also did NOT include all my e-mails in this post! Here is the link to the person that ordered your rock you shorted him 25pounds!
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1009978&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

scroll down to the bottom. I am an honest hard working person. I just don't feel this
was fair. I also was sent a bad snail that you neglected to put on the website.
I also NEVER said I POURED SALT OVER THE ROCKS! This makes me very upset! The live Rock from Dr Macs is Fiji Ultra Premium as well, he says to do the dip. It
came from the exact same place as your rock came from. I DO REMEMBER READING ON YOUR SITE TO DO A DIP THAT CONSISTS OF 1.030 SG! Then
you took it down. I think this is crap. I'm a Christian girl and would not make
things up like this. Yes, I did the dip. I didn't want to chance it. Yes the bugs looked black! Like black spiders and ear wig looking bugs! They were crawling all over my gloves. All over in the rock. I have looked at various hitchhiker websites and I cannot find on there what I saw on my rock. Was it some type of bug from Fiji that got mixed in with my rock? I'm sorry. It doesn't look like an amphipod.

My Rock http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/MVC-103S.jpg

Your Rock On your website
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/fijisuper10.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/fijirocko3.jpg
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p248/GinaM411/fijirock117a.jpg

Look I'm not trying to be a mean person here, but there is clearly a huge difference. There is maybe 5% coralline algae on the rocks I purchased. If those
pictures are straight from fiji, you should state that in your website those pictures were taken IN FIJI not when they Arrived. If I wouldn't have done that dip, I would never of found that coral and sand bed critter eating snail. It was too small for me to see. You did not include all my e-mails. I think that's unfair. I told you that there were 2 pieces that looked okay. The others are huge chunks. I ordered the smaller sized rocks. I still believe this was False Advertisement. I hear Premium Aquatics has great customer service. Isn't there anything you can do or
you're willing to do to help me out here? I did not double the dose of the SG. That's crazy.

[MarineGirl411]

He also told me to keep the rock in a low salinity which people say to keep it at least 1.025. He says 1.021. I'm only at 1.023 so I'm sorry, but I didnt over do it here. I just think you should try to help me out a little bit here. Go read that post where you shorted that poor guy 25 pounds of LR. He ordered 75 pounds. You shipped 50. You told him that was probably water weight. Well, you still shorted him 25 pounds and you were not willing to work with him either. Look, I don't earn a lot of money, I'm not rich like a lot of people or well off. I saved for months and months to get this rock. Then to have it coming in looking like base rock? WendyMC said it looks completely like base rock. She has been reefing for 10 years and worked at various stores that get LR shipments in. I'm sorry, but this really makes me sick to my stomach. You guys might think I'm too upset, but I believe I am not. Neither does Wendy or other people on the forums. I have been trying to set this tank up since april of last year. I just want something with the great coralline algae you have in your pics. That's it. Give me something good. Something at least half ways decent with life. What else can I say except
::::cry

[MarineGirl411]

sorry www.drmaccorals.com go there read their information. They recommended it. I've heard of other people doing it. I did not leave it in there for hours. Just a couple of minutes to get any possible Mantis Shrimp out, Coral Eating worms, and snails. I didn't do it a long time. I don't see how I could have killed all my life. I'm telling you those bugs looked like Bugs that you see outside walking around in the grass or something. Not marine Bugs. ::::::::::Cry I'm just so sad.

[Marko9]

Be patient young grasshopper.....let the reef grow into the beautiful flower of the sea....

[Myka]

You rock looks the same as the Fiji LR I got up here in BC, Canada from J&L Aquatics in Burnaby, BC. I paid $4.59/lb Canadian dollars. Actually mine is 50/50 Fiji/Tonga. The Tonga had more color and was $5.79/lb. Mine doesn't have much life, however I do have a fair amount of coralline. My cycle is nearly over...having a second diatom bloom right now. The photo shows what my rock looked like at about day 2. I am now at day 16, and I am starting to get a lot of color (even under my minimal lighting), and just 5 minutes ago I discovered PODS...LOTS OF PODS!!! Woo hoo!

Just be patient...it will color back up. :)

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/SWtank-Dec222006046.jpg

[dragonforce]

IMHO it looks fine.

[antonsemrad]

MG, I think that your rock is just fine. The vendors really can't win, if someone gets a pest, they complain. If someone gets rock with no critters living in/on it, they complain. And the complaints about coraline aglae, frankly, are just plain ignorant.

What lives or dies depends on how high the ammonia spikes. That, depends on how hot is was during shipping, how it was handled at the vendors holding tanks, and how you handle it.

Putting it in high salinity is somthing that I would not do. But, others may, and that is somthing that only the aquarist (not the vendor) can decide. Some folks like to have bare rock with nothing but the corals that they want living on it. Others, want to save as much as they can.

I think that you should be thankful that you didn't get a bunch of small pieces. More often this is the case.

Birdfish: In my humble opinion, this thread does not make your live rock look bad, I think it looks quite nice.

Ant

[MarineGirl411]

Ok thank you for letting me know how ignorant I am. If you go to the website I have mentioned previous times you will see that treatment is recommended. I can't win here. I guess I'm just one of those stupid people in the hobby that experienced people cannot stand. I'm here to learn. At least I am not the only one that came forth with getting rock that was not as expected. Shorting a man 25 pounds and not making up for it is very very very poor customer service. I will order from Premium Aquatics if I ever do order live rock again. Their customer service is outstanding. I was supposed to get varied pieces in the order thank you. Some larger and some smaller.If you PM wendymc she will tell you. She looked at my rock, she's worked in the business of reefing for 10 years and she agrees with me.

[benray4fun]

Ant has a good point, it sounds like a BIG misunderstanding and an unrealistic expectation of sorts from an inexperienced honest hobbiest.
Hopefully, those rocks will take off for MG, which I expect they will and she will be happily amazed.

On the flipside, the seller probably has never been on the recieving end of a live rock shipment that looks like when reefers get it and should warn customers about the realities that come with that brutal shipping.

The only way anyone is gonna get great reefer rocks without being disappointed is by buying'm through a local fish store or friend and doesn't require the rocks to be out of the water very long.

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you. I hope it will take off too. I might buy a nice piece from my lfs. He has a great Reef Shop. He really knows his stuff. Yes I am a beginner, but I've done A LOT of research. I know it shall never end of course. I honestly have not seen bugs like that on any hitchhiker page. Maybe I just haven't come across the right page. I did a rinse of the rock today. I cleaned up most of the dying stuff. It was horrible smelling. Rotten. Bleh. My question to you guys is, what SG would you cure your rock in? What temp? The people that sent me the rocks said to keep temps at 71 with an SG of 1.021. My good friend Wendy who is a great reefer says to maintain the tank at 1.025 and a temp of 75. What is the best way? Thank you all for the help. I am still learning, but I guess I have to make mistakes to learn. =*(

[antonsemrad]

I guess I'm just one of those stupid people in the hobby that experienced people cannot stand.

I do not think this.....

I am sorry if I made you feel this way.

If you go to the website I have mentioned previous times you will see that treatment is recommended.

MG, I have learned that there are a ton of different ways of doing things in this hobby. Some work, others don't. Different people have different ways of doing things that work for them. This treatment thing, as well as rock cooking are classic examples where you are going to find that there are successful reefkeepers on both sides of the fence.

The people that sent me the rocks said to keep temps at 71 with an SG of 1.021. My good friend Wendy who is a great reefer says to maintain the tank at 1.025 and a temp of 75. What is the best way?

I think that your friend Wendy is giving better advice.
The bad smell is normal also.

Once again, I am sorry if I offended you.

Ant

[Myka]

MarineGirl: You bought cheap rock. If you paid $8-12/lb for that rock...then I could understand being ticked off. But you got what you paid for - if not better! Have some patience...you'll need that a lot more than anything else in this hobby!!!

For the record, I have kept SW tanks for 3 years, and have studied and researched for a good 6 years. I still think I am a novice...being a novice can last a long time!!!

Here's my rock today on day 16...I turned the lights off, and used the flash so you could see the colors on my rock. Can you see how it's starting to color up now? I paid a bit more per pound for my rock than you did for yours.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k43/Myka82/Aquariums/SWTank-Jan62006030.jpg

[phil5613]

first heres the post of the gentleman that got shorted:

01/05/2007 10:47 AM

danieljames
Registered Member

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: ashland city tn
Occupation:
Posts: 2111


Marinegirl....
I purchased what was suppose to be 75 lbs of the deepwater vavau from the same place. They sent me 50 lbs and then he tried to convince me that 25 lbs of water had either drained or evaporated from the rock in transit from tonga, and that this was completely normal. There is no customer service with this place imo. "Too bad" is exactly the attitude i received as well. I was very unhappy with my experience from www.livestockusa.org. Your taking a chance imo when ordering from this company.


__________________
"Humble pie....mmm mmm good"

Hobby Experience: 10 yrs
Current Tanks: 58 mixed, 75 fowlr
Interests: Marine environments

With that why are you fighting that battle? Sounds like a long time RC member that could fight the battle himself. Besides its a complaint but not the same as yours. As long as you are quoting one negative how about any postive posts? I know I have seen posts on this site saying great things about this company.
How about this one and follow the link included to some great pics:
07/22/2006 10:23 AM

Bene'
Registered Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Iowa
Occupation: Internet Technician
Posts: 226


I know it is a little late, but thought I'd chime in. I also couldn't find any solid info or opinions on livestockusa.org, so decided to go for it and then do a write-up. I bought a 75# box of Eva.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/reefpage/eva/eva.htm
*Feel free to scroll past my jibber to the pics at bottom of the page.

In short the service from livestockusa.org was stellar, the rock is better than anything I have seen in LFSs around here, and came out well under half the cost with shipping charges included.

How well it stacks up against PA or some others, I do not know. Anyone care to comment?

Reef_dude76,
When you get your rocks from PA, I'd sure like to see some pics straight out of the shipping box and any details you care to share. I also have more pics than I posted if anyone is interested.


__________________
Benjamin

Hobby Experience: 15 Years Freshwater, 5 Years Saltwater, 3 Years Reef
Current Tanks: 1-40 gallon Freshwater Community Tank, 3-10 gallon Experiment/Holding Tanks, 1- 75 gallon Reef Tank, and over 350 gallons of Rubbermaid
Interests: Reading, Music, Tinkering

Also why buy LR from one site and follow instructions from another? Other then you just shopped price? I see pics of the rock that you got in the box where are the bugs that were on them? This look like alot of other live rock that I have seen shipped into stores you will get die off.

By no means do I want to make you feel bad especially because you are a newbie. I think if you give the rock a chance you will be happy I also would advise you not to try everything that everyone tells you or that you read. Stack that rock creatively and let it grow and defintely lets see a post in afew months to see what that tank looks like

[JotaDe]

Looks like base rock to me, not many decent sized tunnels and nooks and crannies from what I can see.

But it will still look awesome in time. I don't know what you were expecting but I'd have to say it looks avg. to me too. But hey, you got it for a good price so it can't be that bad :)

[Myka]

Uh base rock is dry and white...if you look up at the photo I posted of my rock you can see base rock under the live rock...

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8915237#post8915237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
The people that sent me the rocks said to keep temps at 71 with an SG of 1.021. My good friend Wendy who is a great reefer says to maintain the tank at 1.025 and a temp of 75. What is the best way?

The best way, and the easiest way, to keep the rock and all coral reef animals and plants, is to keep them at standard coral reef conditions. Full strength seawater - that means an S.G. of 1.025. Temperature at about 80 to 82 degrees. Nothing to it. The idea that a reef tank should be kept at 75 degrees is left over from the days the hobby started, when most of the livestock was collected around Florida.

Another thing, the term base rock means two things. One is dead dry rock dug up on land, usually limestone or fossilized coral. This stuff can be as solid as a piece of marble or granite. Florida aquaculture companies put fossilized coral into the Gulf for a few years, then sell it as Florida live rock, which by then it is. The other meaning of base rock is live rock that has nothing interesting about it, but good enough to go underneath the better pieces. At coralreeffarm.com, you'll see they sell base rock separately.

[Mushroom_Mania]

looks pretty decent....just wait awhile it will look even better!!

[reeffer1]

I know it is easy to bash a seller when things are not what you expected, but livestockusa is a good seller in my opinion!!! I have ordered from them a few times and had nothing but stellar service. birdfish is an honarable person and wants to do the right thing if he can. Just because one person has had a bad experiance I would not judge this seller as bad and not use them!! How many people have had bad experiances with PA? I know of a couple, but we all still use them!!!!!

Your rock will be fine give it some time and you will be ammazed at the life!!!!

[kentrob11]

Man I gotta say that you guys must be getting some lame looking rock to say that those are nice shapes. I'm in agreement that they look like round boulders....I've ordered online once from an Ebay vendor (Pukani rock for $3.50 a lb shipped) and while it was void of most color due to shipping at least the shapes were really nice. Saying that the sole purpose for liverock is biological filtration is only partially true. The rest of my 300lbs of rock came from other reefers- IMO the best way to get nice colorful rock....

[JotaDe]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8916237#post8916237 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Myka
Uh base rock is dry and white...if you look up at the photo I posted of my rock you can see base rock under the live rock...

Hmm I didn't know that. I figured base rock was just a large rock that without a lot of negative space to it so you could stack the more premium rock on top of it.

So why does base rock have to be dry and white?

[Lev F.]

Well, if you really want your LR to look what you expected, then it is better to buy it from your LFS. You can hand-pick it yourself for just a couple bucks more per pound. No surprise is the best surprise of all. But honestly, if you want to save $, it is better to buy online. These rocks have been shipped far distances without water, and it is natural for them to fade, Kind of like a coral frag. If you've ever seen softie frags newly shipped to an LFS, they look like blobs of nothing. within a week they color up and look like the corals you expect them to look like. It's not going to look extravagantly healthy if it's been in a box without water for a couple of days. Give it a week or two, you will see the corraline starting to come in, and all sorts of life will appear.

[benray4fun]

Al is dead on, keep the rock at natural reef conditions, just run those filters and clean'm regularly. Also, buying beatiful live rock from a lfs is a great idea to top off your rock, this will help your investment come along faster, but ONLY AFTER THE AMMONIA SPIKE HAS PASSED!

So don't buy any more live rock from your lfs until then, unless you put'm in a separate container while the spike passes, which should take four to six weeks....

Once the spike has passed and you add your lfs live rock (that's what I did), it will help your fiji premium take off with color..."that is when you'll be in disbelief...lmao...:)

I would also recommend you consider

(1) premium live sand (pods, worms, stars, sponges, etc. included) which is next on the list from say www.garf.org or locally and also on the list would be

(2)your cleaning crew (snails, hermits) and

(3)detritus pack (star fishes,etc).

All three of those...help your rocks and the tank as a whole to keep you from having to clean it yourself. There's so much more that you still need to concentrate on to keep your live rock and tank as a whole coming along, that I wouldn't waste any more time or energy.

Look forward to seeing and hearing from you when this happens...move on, keep planning the next steps and enjoy your investments...:) Sooner rather than later you'll laugh at all this...:)

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8915520#post8915520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Myka
MarineGirl: You bought cheap rock. If you paid $8-12/lb for that rock...then I could understand being ticked off. But you got what you paid for - if not better! Have some patience...you'll need that a lot more than anything else in this hobby!!!

For the record, I have kept SW tanks for 3 years, and have studied and researched for a good 6 years. I still think I am a novice...being a novice can last a long time!!!


I'm sorry, but $3-4 a lb, is pretty much average online. It is by no means cheap rock. If you're paying $8-10 a lb, you're getting hosed. Period.

[benray4fun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8918907#post8918907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I'm sorry, but $3-4 a lb, is pretty much average online. It is by no means cheap rock. If you're paying $8-10 a lb, you're getting hosed. Period.

$6-8 a lb is the norm in lfs and $8-10 is for the really good stuff locally, cause the price of shipping is included (someone has to pay for the shipping) and your lfs is not gonna take that hit. You're getting hosed if you're paying that much a lb. online, but not if you're buying locally.
It's best to get the bulk of your rocks online and get few nice pieces locally to save $$$.

Buying from someone that is breaking down their tanks is best, usually it's all covered in coraline and nicely colored. Once in a while this can be found in your lfs...

[MarineGirl411]

I have to say I agree with Kent here. Okay so I need to raise the temps then and the SG? I'm only at 73 degrees and 1.023 sg right now. I didn't want to follow anything else since birdfish said I already had the SG too high against his SG recommendation of 1.021 and temps of 71 for curing. So please everyone, what do I need to set this at now? 80 degrees and an sg of 1.025? Any advice on how to gradually do this? I don't want to harm anything since a lot of people are telling me I did. I did another cleaning of the rock yesterday. It smelled absolutely horrible. I expected as much. My skimmer isn't pulling barely anything. I have the remora pro in my sump. I feel like I need a better skimmer. Oye madre. Malo malo malo!

[MarineGirl411]

Oh yah by cleaning NO I didn't scrub the rock so don't worry. I just removed the dead things on it with tweezers. and rinsed it in a tub of sw with an sg of 1.025. When do you think I should do a water change? I have the sw water change water ready to go right now. I got it ready last night. I wasn't sure if it would be too soon to do it after mixing the sw last night. Let me know. Thanks all.

[JokerGirl]

MG,

If everything need be and you end up deciding to order from Premium Aquatics, let me know. They are good people there but if you are worried about getting bad looking rock, I will go down there and pick it out for you since I live in Indy.

On another note, don't worry too much about your rock. If you look at my post on your thread in the Newbie section, you will see that my rock was very bare when I first got it. It's been about three months and even the pieces that were completely brown/white are completely covered in corraline and life.

[benray4fun]

Mg, there is no perfect salinity or specific gravity as everyone has a different preference.
However just be in the tolerance level and stay where you're most comfortable.
Most reefs stay at a specific gravity of 1.025 and a temperature of 80 degrees..."some slightly warmer some cooler, but that's the norm.
I like to keep mine as close to the real thing as possible, but tolerance is about five degrees either way. specific gravity should be between 1.021-1.026 (tolerance levels) as much as possible.

plan on a water change whenever your rocks ammonia gets at or above 0.25 ppm just to be on the safe side and immediately if it hits 0.50 ppm.

It's definitely a process so plan on being patient and keep planning your next steps as your moving along...you won't be disappointed.

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8920437#post8920437 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
Oye madre. Malo malo malo!

Calm down, wilya.

The Remora Pro or Urchin Pro is a perfectly good skimmer for that size tank. It usually takes a new protein skimmer a few days to start skimming - something to do with traces of plasticiser on the skimmer itself affecting water tension.
You want to move to the temperature and SG found in most coral reefs (1.025 and 80 - 82). Do it over a few days, no rush. I don't much care for the rock you were sent - it'll be hard to build an interesting reef from seven or eight rounded blocks, all about the same size - BUT, the rock will come alive, really. Do not worry about having put it in hypersaline water, it was probably no harder on the critters and plants still hiding in the rock then traveling in a box without water for a few days.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8921088#post8921088 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al
Calm down, wilya.

The Remora Pro or Urchin Pro is a perfectly good skimmer for that size tank. It usually takes a new protein skimmer a few days to start skimming - something to do with traces of plasticiser on the skimmer itself affecting water tension.
You want to move to the temperature and SG found in most coral reefs (1.025 and 80 - 82). Do it over a few days, no rush. I don't much care for the rock you were sent - it'll be hard to build an interesting reef from seven or eight rounded blocks, all about the same size - BUT, the rock will come alive, really. Do not worry about having put it in hypersaline water, it was probably no harder on the critters and plants still hiding in the rock then traveling in a box without water for a few days.


Al, the problem is that theyre hand made. some work fin, some are junk.

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8921222#post8921222 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Al, the problem is that theyre hand made. some work fin, some are junk.

Most protein skimmers are. That's why they're so expensive, considering that most are made out of a little acrylic and PVC. There's a chance that MG got a bad one, but I think it's more likely that it just hasn't broken in yet.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

Wow this is really something, eh? I apologize for the length, but the incorrect record demands straightening out.

First I want to say we are truly very sorry that MG is not completely happy with her rock. Second I want to say that it does not look like our "fanciest stuff", that is usually shipped.
Third, like all customer comments and feedback we take it very
seriously, and for instance, the photos will be sent to Fiji.

That said, I'd like to point out that the MG's pictures do not look like the rock she received. Not to dis MG's photo skills, but the (probably digitally determined) exposures are very dark (underexposed) and very light (over exposed). What you lose in either case is color. Over and under exposed photos do not show the true story. We wanted to see a more true (real) representation of what MG's live rock looks like under proper lighting, so we took MG's pix and used Photoshop to adjust only the lighting levels ("auto levels" adjusts for the under and over exposures automatically, to some degree, but it can only do so much). It does, however, result in a far more accurate depiction of what MG received rather than the raw, incorrectly exposed images posted here. And when done, the rock looks more than twice as colorful as the images that were posted here. If the exposures had been accurate to begin with (not MG's fault), it would be even more colorful than simple "auto levels" adjustment working with poor exposures. So what is being touted as what was received is not 100% accurate.

As a life-long photog, who learned it in the darkroom with black and white, I have taken a thousand live rock pictures. 800 went into the trash. It is amazingly hard to take a good picture of it. On MG's in-the-box shot where newspaper covers half of the box (the 'good' pieces?), there is a strong yellow cast, which is usually incandescent lights overhead. The way to remove blue/violet from the spectrum is to use a yellow filter or lights. With fluorescent lights for instance, a Series 7 80B filter (yellow) is required to remove the blue cast of fluorescents. That this is a factor is visible in Photoshop where you can see what is showing up in the spectrum. The blue/violet end of the spectrum is flat-lined. There ain't nuthin' there. It is not MG's fault, it's just how light/color works. But, I think MG knows that the pictures look worse than what she is looking at (as "auto levels" proves) and no effort has been made to make that clear to the fine folks reading this. I'm not sure that is fair to them, or us. Often the pieces are packed upside down so the uncovered with coralline side (bottom) is facing up, as shown in some of MG's pictures. This is to protect the "best stuff" during shipping.

Note we have a photo gallery that has many dozens of pictures
in an attempt to show the range of possibilities.

The bottom line is that in our view, MG has has not been altogether forthright, possibly to garner support for her position. A number of the things publicly posted are patently false (either not things that were ever said, or, things that were never on our website) and nothing more than creative novel writing. They are simply a twisting of words and facts for effect. Has it been the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, first time, everytime, all the time? Unfortunately the answer is "no". Here are some examples of some statements made either to us privately (Example #1), or to this forum (Examples #2-7) ... let's look at some of the statements made by MG ...

MG 1) "I showed others on Reef Central and they totally agree with me."

Obviously this is not and was not ever true. A falsehood.

MG 2) (Re: Dr. Macs rock) "It came from the exact same place as your rock came from."

Not true, and how could you know? There are 4 shippers in Fiji. They all collect in many different areas amongst the many islands.

MG 3) "I DO REMEMBER READING ON YOUR SITE TO DO A DIP THAT CONSISTS OF 1.030 SG! Then you took it down."

We will take and cover any and all bets with no limit (!) that such a thing has never been on our website. We have archived versions every few months, for years, and server records, that we can provide to prove that. When you say we said something that we never said, or that we took something down that was never there, bells and sirens go off in my head. A falsehood, again. We have (and will) never recommend a hypo-saline dip.

MG 4) "If those pictures are straight from fiji, you should state that in your website those pictures were taken IN FIJI not when they arrive."

I said the pictures were taken in transit. Apologies for not being more clear. They were taken in Los Angeles as the boxes were opened on the way to customers as part of our quality control program.

MG 5) "He also told me to keep the rock in a low salinity which people say to keep it at least 1.025. He says 1.021."

According to a $10 book I feel none of you should be without, "The Marine Aquarist's Manual" by Hans A. Baensch, published by Tetra 1983, page 71 has a graph that should be of import to reefers. It lists the average density (SG) of each ocean: Pacific=1.021, Indian=1.023; Caribbean=1.024, and Red Sea=1.027. It also lists average ppt and temps for each ocean. 1.021 is not "low" for the Pacific, from where your rock came.

MG 6) "The people that sent me the rocks said to keep temps at 71 with an SG of 1.021."

Another falsehood. We have never suggested a temp of 71. Our curing page states 73-75 are our preferred temps, and states that though this seems a little low, the idea is to provide a buffer against summer overheating, and increase oxygen levels (and ORP), all of which help the cycling process. Also note contrary to some other posts here, in Tonga the water is 72dF.

MG 7) "There is maybe 5% coralline algae on the rocks I purchased."

This is clearly false too.

We feel for MG's disappointment, however, it's not as bad as she's been making it out to be, and, we are sure, in short order, she will be amazed at how her rock looks. Hopefully, she can post pictures here in a month or two and show us all how it looks.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I will respond to the "alleged shorted customer" post seperately.
Suffice it to say, I have tried for 5 years to get Tonga to ship 50 lb. boxes. They won't, yet, except for branch rock. That customer
(thanks for posting it!) received a partial refund to the account
from which it was purchased from, last March 3. The *total maximum* disputed amount is 12 pounds not 25, and is far closer to ZERO. But, as with most disgruntled customers, the tendency to exaggerate is seemingly irrestible. Fortunately we can count them on one hand. No one EVER told us they were shorted 25 lbs., and that customer's initial e-mail states it was 19 lbs. short (and that was before our partial refund), not 25. We have all correspondence for verification.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Finally (WHEW!!) I would like to thank all the informed intelligent
folks who knowledgeably participated in this thread, some of whom I would really like to have a beer with!

birdfish
:bum:

[jimbo045]

Looks av, like base rock. JD

[reeffer1]

Thanks birdfish, I like hearing from you!!! Like I had said before I have and will order from you again! Hopefully others will not take MG experiance as the norm with your company, because it is not the norm.

MG your rock will be fine, If you are that unhappy with it sell it to a local and order again. Even though you had a bad experiance I would try livestockusa again. I have seen lots of rock from other online retailers and non has compaired with theirs.
The divers must have had a little to much rum the day they packed your box.

[Herndog]

of live rock in 16 years and I would be disappointed if I expected what was in the pictures on their website. I would have to see in person to really say much more. You got several boulders and for a small tank that just doesn't look as good. Take a chisel and hammer and break it up a little.
After that put it in your tank and leave it alone. Let your skimmer do some skimming and maybe use a filter sock for awhile and clean it alot. Quit pulling the rock out and cleaning it. Just leave it alone. Give it a few months and see what comes out. It will amaze you. Well if you didn't kill everything with all the pulling out and cleaning.
I do think it is ugly rock in the pics and devoid of near as much growth and coraline(purple algae) as I would expect in Super Duper Premium Fiji which I have bought before. If you are showing the bottom of the rock it looks right but if that is the top it looks like what LFS would sell as base rock. I would give my LFS $3-4 LB for that rock.

Mike

[benray4fun]

Mg, I'd just like to tell you that coraline algae grows best under pc or t-5 lighting. Metal halide burns coraline and in fact is too much light for it, so if you're looking to get more coraline keep your M-H's to a minimum.
Also, I just posted a thread about this for us to learn more, so read up when you get a chance.

Birdfish, enough said..."I'll take that beer now"...:)

[xtm]

I can't believe people make such big deals about rocks.. LOL rocks are rocks. The name "Super Ultra Premium" is only for extra revenue. It IS the same rock.

I always buy the FUGLIEST and CHEAPEST base rocks from my LFS.. like $1 /pound.... heh in 3 months, the acros have encrusted all over them and they are gleaming with thick purple coralline.... premium super fiji, fugly LFS rock...what's the difference? They will all get smothered with coralline in a few months.. :D

[MarineGirl411]

LOL. HOLY COW. I'll I have to say is this makes me so completely upset that it makes me sick to my stomach. I have written you Birdfish and you have not written me back in private to discuss this matter. Lets see those pictures!!!!!!!!!!! Lets see your new pictures of what it really looks like hmmm???? I have tons of pictures. You want more? I'll give you more. I've got tons of pictures. You are not sorry. If you were sorry you would try to help me by correcting this. You would at least send me an e-mail personally and tell me how sorry you were that this stuff wasn't the best. Lets see you want to get quoted too? "Second I want to say that it does not look like our "fanciest stuff", that is usually shipped." Well, if it's not fancy like your website shows then tell a person. Show a person what they actually should be expected to get. Obviously you are disappointed in the rock I got, so how come you would not tell me that privately in e-mail? Also, how come you cut out things that I have e-mailed you and twist your words???? I am a good hard working person here. I am honest. I have a digital camera with good photo quality. I will take several more pictures for you if you like. This rock is base rock. More than one person agrees with me here. Doesn't your website say quote "I recommend curing in a garbage can, using a backpak skimmer at a temp of 71-73 degrees because I prefer cooler temps when curing?" Well first off, I knew that temp was too cold to begin with. I left the temp a little higher than your website stated. Why don't you post your website here somehow for us for the last few months back where you DID tell people to do the dip? NO, you didn't say 1.035 you said 1.030. Where else would I come up with that? My photo pictures are not crap. I will take as many pictures as everyone likes. Please, if you want them, I have them. The newspaper I promise was not covering anything special!! LOL! HOLY MOSES DEAR FATHER IN HEAVEN HELP ME! Why would I lie? WHY?!?! What would be the point???? I have nothing to gain from this? Nothing at all! I spent almost an entire paycheck on this. Yes when I ordered the smaller piece box I was told I'd get smaller pieces and maybe a few larger ones. I know that only actinic lights should be used during the curing process. I started off slow. I didn't use the MH. Even though I am a beginner, I have done my share of research.

[HBtank]

Not a big deal.

Rock looks perfectly fine to me.

You obviously have not seen very much rock in person, but if you had, you would know what is realistic and normal with live rock. You seem to think you will get an instant coraline covered tank... Not that simple.

There are many reasons it loses color, even from the last shipper to you.

In the end it will be pretty bleached comapred to any photo once you clean it and it sits in your tank for even a day.

Your situation seems perfectly normal.

[MarineGirl411]

I've read a lot. I've been to A TON of reef meetings and I'm sorry, but I trusted you. Also, I'm sorry but I spelled a word wrong up there because I was so upset. I meant
to say "All I have to say." I a little note here I have recently been informed of is that LR only comes in 2 times per week. They are all held at LAX. They sit there. Someone whom I trust recently got a shipment of Fiji with spiders in them. Okay, everyone is telling me they're reef bugs. LOL I'm sorry no. They were black spiders. I'm not the only one who has seen this. Well known websites, whom I will not mention, all do this. The rock sits there. So, I don't doubt my rock sat there. Somehow spiders got into the rock. Whatever. I was grossed out by that alone, but when I saw the rock. My heart sank. Please tell me, how do I attach corals to rocks that are shaped like boulders? How can I Aquascape with that? Please, give me some advice. I'm not a stupid person. I know what's good, what's not. I've seen many many many lr shipments. I'm sorry, but this is not good rock. Base rock is not void of all life as you state Birdfish. E-mail from birdfish "No one ever complains about the "bad guys" coming in with it.
So, don't worry, except that it will be hard to identify all you find
on your live rock ! :)" That was in response to my question about the bugs and spiders. Here's more "Bugs" are usually amphipods, very good to have in the tank....
The brown thing I can't get a size on from the photo, but looks
like a retracted zooanthid if small, or a cucumber if larger, and
neither a threat. The snails are not whelks. I am not sure which
type of mollusk they are, but they are not whelks. I don't see
anything here that is alarming." Not whelks, hmmmm....not alarming? The snail I sent you a picture of was a coral eating snail! The Cucumber or retracted Zoanthid, lol was a sipunculan, the snail you said wasn't a so called "BAD GUY" was a Vexillum (Costellaria) exasperatum.

Also here is what you state on your Live Rock Curing page You should be somewhere around 1.020-1.021
and the low '70's ... 73 or 74 degrees F. is fine.
75 degrees is OK, but I like it cooler, so daytime
heating doesn't overheat the water.

When the rock comes in, you should inspect it.
Using a putty knife, or screwdriver, or maybe
a preferably gloved finger, search for
soft spots.

70? That's pretty low.

Here is what you state about Coraline Algae Though purple coralline survives a week out of water, little else does. So if my pictures were so bad, where is all this coralline I was supposed to get? If it ships so fast why was there about 5% on my rock?

[HBtank]

I see much more than 5% on the rocks shown, even with the poor quality lighting. MUCH MORE.

Looks over 50% to me, with much of it bleached.

Try posting a pic with the lights on.

You realize some coraline is green right? Brown? Red? etc.. I see lots of green coraline on yours, good stuff, mine eventually mixed with purple. All of it is good, I like a mix...

[HBtank]

Some reality:


My expensive hand picked live rock a month after I put it in:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Mikecdj/Tank2.jpg

3 months later

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Mikecdj/Tankmid.jpg

8 months later... (many new surfaces JUST exposed..new tank)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/Mikecdj/000_0716.jpg

You should see it now..

[MarineGirl411]

Also you state that base rock is this," Hi Gina,

I think we have a problem of definitions.

Base rock is devoid of all life. ALL LIFE. There is NOTHING on base rock.
It is rock that has been out of the water for months with no trace of ANYTHING
living on it. That is what base rock is."

This is not true as we all know. Base rock is still seeded with life. Anyway, this completely blew my mind tonight to see this post on here. I really want to try and get this rock problem solved. I don't know why Birdfish you will not write me back. I've written you 3 e-mails and WendyMC my friend who has been reefing for 10 years has even written you. Why do you neglect to write us back? I want to be as civil as possible. You are quoting things that I did not say. I am just so frustrated with this. Anyway, I'd like some advice on how to get these boulders ready for my attaching corals? I'm not trashing a vendor. I am a good person, that had a very bad experience. I didn't get an apology. You guys kind of got an apology. Yes HB I have seen many live rock displays. I've seen LR when it first gets shipped in. My photo's portrayed the truth. Why would I do this? Why would I even start a thread about this if I wasn't telling the truth? There is no reason. I'd love to be happy, but my heart broke as I saw my $240.00 go towards this. Birdfish, you must not have read the entire thread because many people here have agreed with me. Looks like base rock. Doesn't look good. Looks average. You never state on your webpage that's what the rock looks like when it's first placed in the boxes from Fiji. You said a person can expect wonderful shapes, colors, feather dusters, corals, etc on their LR. Hey, just give me a good quality piece of LR and I'll be happy. I'm willing to work this out. My high SG dip did not kill much life I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble. Very advanced reefers have told me this. I asked if I did something wrong. Some of them do the same thing. It's not like I left the rock in there for hours 10 min, 6 min, etc. Only a couple mins. I am keeping my actinics on for 4 hours a day while increasing up to 6 hours. To some rock may be just rock, but Live Rock in my System is part of my main filtration. LR in anyone's system should be the most important filtration system. Then my skimmer. So, I want to be as nice as possible, but I have to tell you its very hard when you switch my words around Mitch. This is just an awful deal. Can't you try to make this right? I'll post and send all the pictures you want. I've got more. I just want this done right. What happened to my smaller pieces Thank you everyone for reading and I am sorry, but this just really frustrates me. Please, I'm not a dumb kid. I'm an adult. I know what I saw and what I didn't see. Thank you. PS, If anyone has any tips on how to make this rock not look like boulder and how I could maybe try to aquascape send me a PM. Or post here even better. I just want this entire thing solved. Thank you.

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933692#post8933692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
Also you state that base rock is this," Hi Gina,

I think we have a problem of definitions.

Base rock is devoid of all life. ALL LIFE. There is NOTHING on base rock.
It is rock that has been out of the water for months with no trace of ANYTHING
living on it. That is what base rock is."

This is not true as we all know. Base rock is still seeded with life. Anyway, this completely blew my mind tonight to see this post on here. I really want to try and get this rock problem solved. I don't know why Birdfish you will not write me back. I've written you 3 e-mails and WendyMC my friend who has been reefing for 10 years has even written you. Why do you neglect to write us back? I want to be as civil as possible. You are quoting things that I did not say. I am just so frustrated with this. Anyway, I'd like some advice on how to get these boulders ready for my attaching corals? I'm not trashing a vendor. I am a good person, that had a very bad experience. I didn't get an apology. You guys kind of got an apology. Yes HB I have seen many live rock displays. I've seen LR when it first gets shipped in. My photo's portrayed the truth. Why would I do this? Why would I even start a thread about this if I wasn't telling the truth? There is no reason. I'd love to be happy, but my heart broke as I saw my $240.00 go towards this. Birdfish, you must not have read the entire thread because many people here have agreed with me. Looks like base rock. Doesn't look good. Looks average. You never state on your webpage that's what the rock looks like when it's first placed in the boxes from Fiji. You said a person can expect wonderful shapes, colors, feather dusters, corals, etc on their LR. Hey, just give me a good quality piece of LR and I'll be happy. I'm willing to work this out. My high SG dip did not kill much life I'm sorry to burst everyone's bubble. Very advanced reefers have told me this. I asked if I did something wrong. Some of them do the same thing. It's not like I left the rock in there for hours 10 min, 6 min, etc. Only a couple mins. I am keeping my actinics on for 4 hours a day while increasing up to 6 hours. To some rock may be just rock, but Live Rock in my System is part of my main filtration. LR in anyone's system should be the most important filtration system. Then my skimmer. So, I want to be as nice as possible, but I have to tell you its very hard when you switch my words around Mitch. This is just an awful deal. Can't you try to make this right? I'll post and send all the pictures you want. I've got more. I just want this done right. What happened to my smaller pieces Thank you everyone for reading and I am sorry, but this just really frustrates me. Please, I'm not a dumb kid. I'm an adult. I know what I saw and what I didn't see. Thank you. PS, If anyone has any tips on how to make this rock not look like boulder and how I could maybe try to aquascape send me a PM. Or post here even better. I just want this entire thing solved. Thank you.

Sorry, he is right, base rock is compeletely dry and devoid of any life. It can only be seeded with some live rock.

[MarineGirl411]

I know coralline is green and brown. Thank you for the input.

[MarineGirl411]

No, I'm sorry that is not true. Have you ever read The New Marine Aquarium?
The Conscientious Marine Aquarist, Or the Natural Reef Aquariums book by John H Tullock? Base rock is still seeded with life. Check out those books. The will tell you.

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933693#post8933693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
Sorry, he is right, base rock is compeletely dry and devoid of any life. It can only be seeded with some live rock.

Not true. Base rock can also mean very uninteresting live rock.
Coralreeffarms sells it for $2/lb.
http://www.coralreeffarm.com/store.php?product=base_rock

[Herndog]

it will be a mess and you will really run into some strange critters. Drop it about 7 feet to concrete. Throw the left over real small pieces in your sump/fuge. I have boulders in my 75 like that. I threw in some tonga branch to break up the look.
Forget about it and move on. To some people here $240 is nothing compared to what they have wasted on crappy equipment. I do remember when it was a lot of money to me so I appreciate your complaints.
It will look fine in a couple months but as I said I would break it up.

Mike

P.S.- The pictures on the website are false advertising compared to what you got in my opinion. Show pictures of what you will get not what it could look like in the future.

[tkeracer619]

I would get some shelves at the lfs, spend some time aquascaping, and let it be for my own sanity.

I think the rocks look just fine for the price paid.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933693#post8933693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
Sorry, he is right, base rock is compeletely dry and devoid of any life. It can only be seeded with some live rock.

No, its not. Base rock is just that, base rock. Its generally pieces of live rock with no coraline on it.

Dead rock, is dead rock, or dry rock. Base rock is most certainly not dry or dead.

[tkeracer619]

:hammer:

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you. If this doesn't get resolved privately and nicely I guess I'm going to break it. What kinds of wonderful things should I expect to find in there? $240.00 to me is a lot. I'm not well off, it takes me a long time to get money saved to pay for things. I want to know if Birdfish saw the rocks himself that I purchased? In person? Thanks everyone for the support and for everyone's opinions. I don't believe this post is a waste of time. I think it is very informative for others. Sorry if I have angered anyone. This just makes me want to cry. I ordered smaller rocks. =*(

[MarineGirl411]

Al, Rich, and everyone thank you. I'm not as blind in this hobby as some may think. Thank you.

[benray4fun]

MG, stop whining and reading; and start getting some experience in this hobby. You don't need to cry over anything, you're over reacting..."your rocks are gonna be fine."
People in this hobby just can't believe everything they read, cause just like what works for those authors may not work for you. You have to make your own way through this hobby and take a little from some and nothing from others.
You and your rocks are gonna be fine..."can't wait to hear from you in the future."
It sounds to me like you're gonna come along fine and be a very good reefer very soon..."good luck to you."

[RichConley]

Benray, the product she recieved wasnt the product she ordered. Why shouldnt she be agravated?

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8935884#post8935884 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
No, its not. Base rock is just that, base rock. Its generally pieces of live rock with no coraline on it.

Dead rock, is dead rock, or dry rock. Base rock is most certainly not dry or dead.

"Base Rock is a generic term for aragonite rocks which have no bacterial organisms or coralline algae growing in or on the rock. Base rock is used often used as filler rock in the marine aquarium as it is much cheaper to purchase than live rock."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_rock (http://)

Anyways, the problem is obviously that some people (such as yourself) use the term for "low life" live rock, making it confusing.

But, through out all my research, base rock when used as a noun is almost always describing what you call "dry rock" that can be seeded with live rock. Why this is not something you have heard is odd.

It's semantics, but the seller WAS correct, and you got to learn something. ;)

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8933877#post8933877 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Al
Not true. Base rock can also mean very uninteresting live rock.
Coralreeffarms sells it for $2/lb.
http://www.coralreeffarm.com/store.php?product=base_rock

They are using the term "base" as an adjective for any rock under the rest of your rock. Of course if it were applied to live rock, it would be the ugliest, or "base live rock".

Refer to the post above for the "accepted" definition of "base rock".

Anyways, my point was that the seller was NOT wrong as she stated trying to make him look incompetent.

[tibbs2]

I don't see a problem with the rock. Fiji rock isn't that interesting in terms of shape. If you want shape, get Tonga or Marshall Island rock or go to a site that sells WYSIWYG rock.

Maybe this post should be moved to vendor experiences forum.

[webbstock]

MG = I would stop worrying about your LR. It is exactly like the standard accepted LR from any online supplier. Live rock always looks crappy when it's shipped in, live rock always has hitchhikers. As for terms like "super premium" "small" etc. they technically and legally have no meaning (just as "jumbo" shrimp has no legal meaning).

As everyone has stated on here, in a few months the rock will look great. If the pieces are too large, break them up. I do it quite often to mine and the results are nice, plus you create rubble for either your sump or a rubble field in the tank.

Just remember that before you publicly slander an individual/company you had better be 100% positive about your statements. I think this thread would have been better and more useful to you if you had simply posted the pictures and asked if this was normal for LR and left it at that.

Lastly, don’t believe everything you read/hear. The major downfall of the internet is that anyone can post anything, just as some experts aren’t.

Remember as another member on here once said. “Nothing Good Ever Happens Fast (with reefkeeping)”

[WendyMc]

I think this can be chalked up to a learning experience. Not a pleasant one. How many of us can attest to ordering something online which did not arrive as the site portrayed? This is what happened to MG, and she has expressed her frustration and dismay. Please also keep in mind that the original intent of this thread was for MG to ask hobbyists' opinions on whether this would be considered 'good' ie quality rock, or 'bad' ie don't keep it in your system because those shapes are neither conducive to the healthiest beneficial bacteria population nor are they conducive to the highest quality/number of pods one could have. This dense, mound, boulder-like shape can be used as a 'filler' or a 'base' in the bottom of a large reef structure. It can and will be populated with some beneficial bacteria & pods and even color up with time & the right conditions. This is all true. If MG had a large enough tank, she could follow these suggestions, go to her LFS for 'cherry picking' nicer shapes to stack on top of these. Given her limited space, and budget which she blew on rock which at most looks 1/4 like what the seller's website represents, this is not really possible. I have a few ?'s to ask of the seller:

1. Why are the shapes of most of MG's rock so unlike what is pictured on your site?

2. Why don't your photos represent examples of the actual product you have to offer? Are these from rocks you were shipping some months past? Why are there no boulder-like mounded shapes pictured in your Fiji Ultra Premium section of your website? This would have forewarned MG of the types of shapes she may be receiving.

3. When was the last time you actually looked into one of these boxes for quality control?

I believe you are actually a decent seller w/a good & solid track history. If you weren't there would be more complaints about your company. I have a feeling that if you knew the quality of rocks put in MG's box you would not have shipped them to her. The real issue has not been addressed by you. I think things have gotten so blown out of proportion & the personal attacks have to stop. MG is neither trying to slander your company or falsely portray the actual product she received. She is simply very disappointed and defending her decisions which keep getting questioned. She is not a professional photographer with years of experience in the field of capturing the details of each shot. She is doing her best to show what she is talking about. The simple matter of the difference in type/quality of shapes your advertising medium portrays and what she actually received (with the exception of only one piece) keeps getting pushed to the side here and clouded with talk about coraline algae coverage - which everyone knows will regenerate with time - and whether or not the high saline dip shocked the various life forms within the rock. Also possible to regenerate with time. It is duly noted that one should follow the recommendations of the seller if one would like the seller to be receptive to complaints about the product. In all of the research she has done, she found what she felt was good protection against bad hitchikers. NOTHING done during the acclimation process affected the shapes of the rock received - can we focus on that for once?

And for individuals who have posted negatively about MG's complaints I have another message: Have you forgotten what it was like when you started your 1st system? The amazing highs and lows brought with each new discovery? Why are you criticizing a conscientous new hobbyist instead of attempting to educate and promote good reef keeping practices?

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8949297#post8949297 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WendyMc
This dense, mound, boulder-like shape

Agree.

The least a supplier can do for someone buying a box of live rock is to provide the customer a variety of shapes and sizes so the customer can build a reef - a structure through which water can flow and the animals can take refuge in. This box of rocks is more suited to building a stone wall.

I'm not saying this is a deliberate practice of this supplier - I'm sure that livestockusa is not, for example, aquacon - but it happened at least this one time.

And some advice to anyone breaking live rock into smaller pieces: first, wear eye protection, second, live rock is very brittle - you may end up with some smaller, useable pieces, but most of what you'll get will be rubble.

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you for the support and help. Yes, it is a learning experience. Unfortunately not one I was hoping for. I do not believe I was slandering the seller. I am sorry if it sounded as if I was. I just wanted some help from the seller. Things he had said about me, were falsified. That angered me and I let my emotions run freely. I am honest. I would have no reason to lie to anyone here. What would be my point? I wanted to share my concerns and problems I knew I would face. I first started the post as "is this good rock or bad lr?" In my opinion, the rock didn't look like the shapes that were posted on the website. I wasn't expecting the exact shapes, but something similar as their website medium depicts. Various shapes and sizes. Not large mounds. The shapes in the boxes on their site were varied, open, would provide great aquascaping opportunities, and would allow for a good pod populations to flourish. I informed the company of the size of my Aquarium. A 40 gallon breeder. I asked for their advice on the rock to purchase. I was led to the smaller box of Fiji Ultra Premium. Not the large show pieces. That is what I am referring to when I say the smaller pieces. I wanted people who had been in the hobby, to let me know their opinions, before I was slammed for expressing mine. I don't see how I can mash the rock without bits going everywhere as you mentioned Al and still keeping a semi decent structure. I do not feel as though I have been whining. I'm expressing my feelings and thoughts on the subject at hand here. Rich thank you for the support. I really appreciate it. These shapes are going to be very hard to work with. Al, how do you suggest I break them apart? A hammer and chisel? Where should I start? In the middle of the rock? What life forms should I be looking out for? Thank you everyone again. I believe that my reading has helped me. I don't believe everything I read. I do, however, always hope for the best possible outcome and try to do as much unbiased research as possible. I read as many books as I can get my hand on. I didn't want to go in this hobby blind. I belong to 2 local fish clubs. 1 specifically for Reef Keepers. The other is for Reef keepers and Freshwater keepers. I've been doing my research since April of last year. As I had stated before, I am not well off and need to save for quite a long time before actually making my purchases. Can anyone please suggest a good way to break this rock? I'd appreciate it. I'm aquascaping for a mixed reef. I hope some, can be a little forgiving of a new hobbyist. I'm here because I love the animals. I want to provide the best possible life for them. I want them to be able to move around freely, yet feel very secure and happy. Thank you all.

[Al]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8951590#post8951590 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
Al, how do you suggest I break them apart? A hammer and chisel? Where should I start? In the middle of the rock? What life forms should I be looking out for?

If you're doing this indoors

a) put down a big sheet of plastic, a large garbage bag will do
b) put your least interesting rock down in the middle of it
c) put another sheet of plastic over it - a clear garbage bag is good.
d) carefully wipe clean of any oil or dirt the blade of the chisel
e) strike at a deep indentation or other weak point
f) watch out for flying sharp edged bits of rock. Like I said, wear eye protection
g) if you get any useful smaller pieces from this, sand off any sharp edges

When you're done carefully rinse and dry any tools that got sea water on them

Probably peanut worms will have tunnelled deep into the rock. Here's an article on them
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-04/rs/index.php

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you Al. Maybe I will attempt this as soon as I have some time. I was worried about sharp pieces. Thank you.

[Myka]

This makes me want to break my rock! Hahaha!! But my rock is too small to attempt such things!

[benray4fun]

This is what I'm talking about MG, get down and dirty...ha, ha get the experience and read as much as you like..."just remember it's not law!"

Also, vendors are in this hobby for $$$ and that's the reality, so if you don't want to be disappointed like many of us have been..."hand pick in person only." If you remember these things you'll enjoy this hobby from now on with little disappointments.

[MarineGirl411]

Ben Ray will do. Thank you. Unfortunately I don't think it's fair that the vendors are in it for the money. I think they should also be there for providing the best product and making their customers happy. You know? Lighting in this hobby is ridiculously expsensive. It would be very nice to hand pick your own rock. I guess that's what us hobbyists just have to do. It's too bad so many of us have to be disappointed.

[stewie24]

I've learned my lesson before. Never order from no "mom and pop" shops that you can't find reviews on. I've ordered from a place like that before and got burnt in more ways than one from that place.
Right or wrong about the rocks 2 things to note:
It seems birdman is actually trying real HARD to convince the members of RC that MG lacks camera skills and the paper was covering the nice pieces.. what a load in the pants. Go back to page 3 and look at his "lengthy" post (assuming to defend himself) making excuses of the rock that HE sold. Its called customer support buddy. Don't sell stuff then not be able to back up what you sell. thats the craziest thing i've ever heard. That place customer support sucks and there's nothing you will be able to do about it. The ONLY thing you can do it call your credit card company and see if you can get credited because of a product not being correct and the company's unwillingness to return the product.
I'm not an idiot by any means and sure, that rock will color up in time, but thats not the point. You spend that much money for something, it should be "as advertised". Those rocks do NOT look nice by any means.
As far as the dr mac and this place collecting from fiji. Hello??? its not like we're talking fiji and carib rocks here, it all came from the same place and its the same kind of rock. No excuses.
This place must get whats left after all the other companies get their picks cuz it sure looked like beat big boulder sized rock to me.
It just burns me off when someone spends money like that and then gets screwed.
Next time order from Premium Aquatics. I've ordered rocks from a few different sites before and premium aquatics uncured marshall island rock is by far the best rock i've seen or had. Interesting to note that it was 95% + coverered in coraline. Not all purple either. There was green, red, and orange.
Good luck with your rocks.
Stewie

[gman0526]

"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned,
Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."

William Congreve, The Mourning Bride, 1697, act III scene 8
English dramatist (1670 - 1729)

Good luck from now on... let's say you now have a first hand experience to share with others. ;)

[benray4fun]

No one likes to hear stuff like this, but for those that been in the hobby long enough..."we know thats the reality."
That's another reason to keep coming back to reefcentral and be kept up to date...:)

[jmkins]

This box of rocks is more suited to building a stone wall.

Took the words right from the tips of my fingers.

I know its been said before, but if you are going to restock your rock and use these bricks in your sump you should look into pieces from local sources like other reefers. If you have a local reef club forum on RC check there first.

I can highly recommend rock from PA since I have personally handpicked all of my own straight from their holding tanks. It would have a far cold trip out to you though and likely would be colorless by the time it got there.

Good luck with getting this resolved.

[MarineGirl411]

Hi,
Thank you Stewie. Thank you everyone. I really appreciate the support Stewie. I felt like I was alone for the first part of the thread. The structures are very disappointing. I paid that much for it, so I believe I should have gotten something similar to what's on their website. It is a lot of money. I'm not sure yet, what I'm going to do. I'm waiting for it to cure. It's just so big and it's mounds. In the future I'm going for Clams, LPS, with maybe an SPS in the future. I just don't see how I'd attach those corals and clams to this. I'm waiting. I'm just stuck right now. To top it off, my Aquamate refractometer stopped working! That really made me mad. I'm having bad luck here. Do any of you know where I might be able to get that thing fixed? It was another bad purchase from me. I am now using a deep six. I liked the Aquamate. Any suggestions? Yes, hobbyists shouldn't have to deal with experiences like this. It's very frustrating. A bad start.

[RichConley]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8945053#post8945053 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HBtank
They are using the term "base" as an adjective for any rock under the rest of your rock. Of course if it were applied to live rock, it would be the ugliest, or "base live rock".

Refer to the post above for the "accepted" definition of "base rock".

Anyways, my point was that the seller was NOT wrong as she stated trying to make him look incompetent.

HbTank, just becuase wiki says something doesnt make it true. Pretty much anyone can go in and type in wiki. Read some of the coral stuff on there, its absolute garbage.


If its dry, its dry rock. If its live rock with no coraline, its base rock.

Thats how everyone I know uses the terms, and everyone I've ever met.

[MarineGirl411]

Me too rich.

[::PixelFish::]

MarineGirl, I wouldn't worry about the colors and lack of coraline on the rock if I was you. I've ordered rock from reputable online vendors shipped overnight that looked the same as your rock. I've also bought rock online that was shipped UPS ground and it ended up looking the same as exspensive overnight shipped LR. In the end with the right conditions, both the premium and cheap live rock ended up looking great with the right amount of care. It is dissapointing to open your live rock and find that it looks nothing like the pictures on their websites, but in the end it works out.

I do agree with you that the shape of the rock is absolute crap. You got 66 pounds of boulders. It doesn't matter if you are a professional photographer, a boulder is a boulder no matter how you photograph it. Even the cheap live rock I bought off Ebay from Oceanpro, which many people on RC will attest to being one of the worst live rock vendors, had better shapes than what you recieved.

Next time you buy live rock do it from somebody like Premium Aquatics, Dr Mac or Liveaquaria. If you're not satisfied with your purchase they will make it right with you.

[MarineGirl411]

Hi,
At this point I do not care about the lack of coraline. It would have been nice, but it will come back. I am upset about the boulders. How can I aquascape? I'll try another vendor so I won't get these boulders. Very very disappointing. Pixel thank you for your suggestions.

[danieljames]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8909442#post8909442 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by birdfish

First, no one ever heard "too bad" from our company.
Second, no one ever got a box of Vavau with 50 lbs..
It can't be ordered that way. 75 lb. boxes is it, though
they may vary 5 lbs. either way (and we promptly refund or
ask for the balance). I would like the link to that thread,
if MG can reference that?
birdfish

I ordered 75 lbs, and got right at 50. I got a refund of appx. $20 (pretty close. I don't have the exact number. I can look it up if you dispute this.) I emailed you within an hour of returning from the airport, stating what the box weighed. You then tried to convince me that the weight difference was water evaporation. I said ridiculous. You then explained that boxes are routinely weighed with other boxes on a pallet, with the pallet weight being deducted. I asked the gentleman at southwest airlines when i was there to weigh my box BY ITSELF on their daily calibrated (per sw airlines) digital scale. Again, the box weighed right at 50 lbs ( I told you this).
Southwest airlines found this very amusing birdfish, and i told you this. I PROVIDED YOU WITH A NUMBER TO CALL SOUTHWEST AIRLINES BNA YOURSELF, TO VALIDATE THE WEIGHT AND SPEAK WITH THE EXACT EMPLOYEE THAT WEIGHED THE BOX ORIGINALLY, BY ITSELF, within two hours of receiving the box. The manager on duty from SW airlines WANTED to talk to you regarding the weight.

You declined to call....

I would also like to say that i was not unhappy with the shape of my rock. It was decent rock, but i DID NOT receive the amount i paid for, and was not refunded the full amount of missing rock, even after I provided a number to the exact person that weighed the rock at the airport. Why you would not call SW airlines and verify the weight and resolve the issue is beyond me.

[::PixelFish::]

MarineGirl, you can try and break the rock up pieces to make it easier to aquascape.

Don't drop in the floor or else you'll end up with tons of small little pieces of live rock. Take a chisel or as in my case, my husbands large screwdriver :p and try to chisel off bigger pieces of rock with a hammer and something sharp. Wear gloves and safety glasses because the rock does break into sharp shards when you hit it.

Good luck.

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8964363#post8964363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
HbTank, just becuase wiki says something doesnt make it true. Pretty much anyone can go in and type in wiki. Read some of the coral stuff on there, its absolute garbage.


If its dry, its dry rock. If its live rock with no coraline, its base rock.

Thats how everyone I know uses the terms, and everyone I've ever met.

Sorry you're not used to being wrong, but you are. I said there was middle ground, but you seem to not see anything except your own way. With that in mind, i have to respond.

There have even been a couple threads since this one I have seen showing how the term is used, much less the countless times in every thread I have ever seen the term used.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1015838 (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1015838)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1015631 (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1015631)

Anyways, I have a feeling that no evidence will ever superceed "your" perfect opinion, Rich can never be wrong. Wiki is wrong, I am wrong, everyone in those threads are wrong. I guess we all have been fooled and look like idiots, and Rich and Marinegirl are right, because he says so... At least I presented something to back myself up. :rolleye1:

Anyways, no mas para mi, this is a petty argument.

[amphirion]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8918907#post8918907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
I'm sorry, but $3-4 a lb, is pretty much average online. It is by no means cheap rock. If you're paying $8-10 a lb, you're getting hosed. Period.

Here in quebec city, the live rock is very expensive. For me, the rock you got was very good for the price. here, we get the same as you but at a much higher price. I paid my fiji live rock 10$ each pound for my 110g reef tank (1000$ of liverock)

When you look at a liverock picture on a website, don't expect to receive the same thing. Their goal is to sell their stock. To sell it, they won't put a picture of usual live rock they receive; they will put the most beautiful pieces to attract customers.

Your rock is fine, just keep good water and in 6 months, you will have pink rock!:rollface: My rck is full of coralline. I tried many methods to speed it's growth but the only one that really worked for me is Time.

[MarineGirl411]

DanielJames. I am very sorry this happened to you. It's completely unfair .

[RichConley]

HBTank, if you're right, then whats the difference between Dry rock, and Base Rock?

[danieljames]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8965212#post8965212 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MarineGirl411
DanielJames. I am very sorry this happened to you. It's completely unfair .

This happened quite a few months ago girl. The bitterness of (imo) being burned has passed. I'm sure your's will as well. It seems some have done business with birdfish and have been completely happy.

Pixxelfish's suggestion of breaking the rock up is a good one. It won't harm the rock at all, and will give you more shape to work with.

[HBtank]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8965532#post8965532 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
HBTank, if you're right, then whats the difference between Dry rock, and Base Rock?

I don't have the burden of proof. You do. I have provided plenty to support myself.

You are the one dealing in finite answers and not accepting multiple definitions. I have already stated that it can be confusing using nouns that have adjectives in them, and that all the definitions are correct in their own right. But there ARE "the most commonly accepted defintions", which I have been reffering to from the start. You are the one saying that in no way is "base rock" ever considered to be dry live rock, which is ENTIRELY 100% WRONG.

Anyways, there is no difference between those terms, as I just said. And there does not have to be one, this is language, not math.

My only point was to defend the seller's accused "incompetence" by showing that his definition is in fact the most commonly accepted definition of base rock. And not wrong in any way, as YOU keep saying.

That's where the burden of proof lies, YOU supported her accusation.

[EnderG60]

Ok first off at this point I dont know where your gonna get better rock for under $4 /lb....BUT

I dont know what your all are thinking, that rock looks like crap and MG you have every right to be mad. That picture is absolutly false advertising, and while yes over time the purple will grow if you were expecting to get it due to that picture and didnt thats just wrong.

At least other sites show the fiji rock for what it is...grey and shapeless. And the first pics of your rockwork are horrid, you cant do anything better then mundane with that.

MG absolutle at least try and bash up those rocks, at least then you will have some smaller pieces to do something with, and might even get some actual shapes.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

We are very sorry MG didn't get the shapes she wanted. Usually we hear "I couldn't have picked better pieces". I have zoomed in and scrolled around in extreme detail, and it is fresh live rock with
life. (As live marco forms indicated)

I'm sorry I am 2 pages (!) behind on this and have some catching up to do. Geez, I just turned my back for a second !
And BTW I thought that was a "cool cat", not a bum ! :):)

First let me say my last post was not an answer to MG's problems.
It was an answer to some false things being posted here.

We will do something to attempt to ease MG's pain.
But it will be done based on the facts, not the flurry or the fury.

We have been working on it. It takes time. Research, analysis,
international communications, answering posts ... it all takes time. There is no "wiggle your nose" instant easy solution to this dilemma. We will do something though. There's more to it than has met the board.

It is very important to us all of our customers are happy. The only
thing as important, is that they keep the facts straight on the way.

more regarding this later.....
birdfish
see below
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry of the "off-topic" but since it has been brought up here....

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Dan ... Did you not receive the below e-mail last year?
This was my last correspondence, I never received a reply.

Did you ever get by to read our "Rock Weights" article?

Original E-mail starts now:

3/10/06
Hi Dan,

I guess I wasn't clear. I did not say the rock evaported 20 pounds, ever. From the first moment, we said the rock weighed 68 lbs when it was in Tonga. That difference of 7 lbs. was refunded to you last Friday - a week ago - within 48 hrs.. It was refunded to the name you originally payed with. I asked yesterday if you received this and still haven't seen an answer. So the difference we're are talking about is 13 pounds in my mind, since day one, not 20. We've already refunded the 7 lbs.. How could or would I suggest 20 evaporated? 13 lbs. is at issue.

Dan wrote:
Those three pieces of rock drained 20 pounds of water from Tonga to me? That's say...conservatively over 10 gallons of saltwater?? Ridiculous. I know full well after 10 years in the hobby what a gallon of saltwater weighs. I fully expected some fluctuation in weight. The rock was weighed in Tonga, and over 10 gallons of water evaporated out (?)

Dan - In the above you suggest 20 pounds of water is 10 gallons
and that you know what a gallon weighs. Your figures equal 2 pounds per gallon. A U.S. Gallon of water weighs 8.6 pounds. Imperial gallon more. ONE GALLON = 8.6 lbs.. So I respectfully submit that it appears as though you have a problem with weights and measures.

I would suggest ONE gallon may have evaporated out of the rock between Tonga and here in 48 hours. That is 8.6 lbs. So if we add 8.6 lbs. to the 55 you say it weighed there~ that's = 63.6 pounds. Your first e-mail said you weighed it on a bathroom scale, now it is digital. Interesting evolution. Let's say any (bathroom) scale is off a couple percent. Now the 63.6 lbs. plus another pound or two from the scale being off a percent or two = 65 or 66 lbs. We have refunded from the 7 lbs. difference (a week ago) from 75 down to 68 lbs. So now what we're really talking about is a couple pounds difference !!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Today's additional thoughts.....

The legal weight, and always correct, is the invoice, on the exporters and importers documents, which we have and can provide, not the airbill, where you got the 50 lbs. from in the first place. As written on top of your box the invoice for your box was 30.8 kilos (68 lbs.), just 12 pounds from the "bathroom scale" weight first claimed. (orig e-mails retained)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

we darn sure didn't say "too bad"!
:)
birdfish

[danieljames]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8968660#post8968660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by birdfish

The legal weight, and always correct, is the invoice, on the exporters and importers documents, which we have and can provide, not the airbill, where you got the 50 lbs. from in the first place.
birdfish

I see. Southwest airlines is in the business of shipping to make money. When i see the man put the box on the scales at the airport, and it weighs 50+(55 i believe was the number) on his scales, you can bet that's what the box weighed that i received, because it's cash on delivery for services rendered. What the importer's and exporter's documents say I'm assuming doesn't mean a whole lot to SW when they are charging me for shipping an item that has not been paid for until delivery.

As far as my bathroom scales and digital scales, you forgot to include my email that the digital scales referred to were SW airlines scales, not my own. Perhaps you can post that one.

I suppose the reason why you would completely disregard what my box weighed at the airport, after i asked you to call the SW airlines rep who wanted to speak with you, and stick to what was written on the box in tonga, is very simply money.

I paid for 75 lbs of rock. 55 was delivered. 7 lbs was refunded. That leaves 13 lbs that imo i got stuck for. Not alot of money, but I'd prefer to receive what i pay for.

If you placed a prepaid order for a 75 lbs box of rock from tonga birdfish, and picked it up at the airport in your area after the man weighed it in front of you at the airport on scales that they use for the very lifeblood of their business, and it weighed 55 lbs, would you call your supplier and ask what gives? If the supplier then states that it weighed 68 lbs when he shipped it, and he'll refund 7 lbs...you would just let the remaining 13 go and just continue doing business with this person? I doubt it.

[danieljames]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8968660#post8968660 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by birdfish

The legal weight, and always correct, is the invoice, on the exporters and importers documents, which we have and can provide, not the airbill, where you got the 50 lbs. from in the first place. As written on top of your box the invoice for your box was 30.8 kilos (68 lbs.), just 12 pounds from the "bathroom scale" weight first claimed. (orig e-mails retained)
:)
birdfish

It took me awhile, but I think I understand your point of view now birdfish. The airbill means nothing to your company concerning how you charge potential purchasers of live rock. The actual weight of of the box they receive in their hands has nothing to do with the amount they are charged. What your supplier in tonga has written on the box is the amount you consider valid...end of discussion.
This is the root of our disagreement.

[MarineGirl411]

Okay, everyone. I want to keep this thread going. I don't want mods to shut it down. When I meant it looked like base rock, I didn't know it would turn into an argument. I'm sorry about that. The type of base rock I was referring to was Live Base Rock. Not dead dry base rock. I have found online that it is sold both ways so technically both of the parties are correct. Every book though, that I have picked up, states that base rock has little marine life on it and is used as a base for a reef structure with nicer pieces placed on top. That is the type of base rock I was referring to. I'm going off of these books I have purchased and still have. The Natural Reef Aquarium, The New Marine Aquarium, and The Simple Guide to Mini-Reef Aquariums. I thought I remember reading it in the The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert Fenner as well. Those other 3 for sure, but the Robert Fenner I'll have to look at more tonight to make sure. Anyway, what I meant was it looks like Live Base Rock. Lets not get this thread shut down. Please. It's very important.

[MarineGirl411]

Birdfish, yes please ease my pain. Why would I say anything false? Why? I want nothing but the best for my tank, these fish, and my corals. I'd never say anything false. I'm not that kind of person. I've written you again with no response back. Why won't you at least write me privately to say sorry about this? You haven't even addressed me specifically. Just MG. Please, address me. My name is Gina. Birdfish, how can I place corals on these rocks? How can I place clams? How long does it take to do this Research, analysis, international communications, answering posts for me? You've seen what I recieved. What type of analysis? Also what type of research? I just want this resolved in the best possible way.

[aquarius77]

I dont think it looks like base rock, i really dont think its all that bad looking, it just looks really dense to me. I personally see some pics on the site that look like what you got, but in the same token i see rock that looks nice and porus in other pics right next to it.
If it weighed, then i think altho its not first choice stuff (in your eyes), it could be confused with the rock they have pictured.

You could bust it down maybe, or stack it open and accent it with something more porus that you can find locally.
I bought my rock at various LFS. If 20 pounds is gonna evaporate... its gonna be their 20 pounds!

[MarineGirl411]

Yup, not sure if I want to break it yet though. If I do, I'm afraid birdfish will not want to help me. So I'm gonna wait and see if he's willing to help me a little first. Well, there is 1 piece that is usable. The other pieces are boulder like masses. I can see it being a base in say a 100 or 200+ system being on the bottom of the nicer shaped rock. I think it would work great for that. For my 40 breeder, it's just too big and boulder shaped. I was expecting smaller pieces from what I had asked them. I asked them what size box they recommended. The Large show piece box, or the regular box. The regular box I was told would have small, medium and maybe a large piece. I think if they had it at their store, they would be able to mix and match better for people. Since they don't do it themselves. So maybe they can get it sent to their store from Fiji. Then they can pick the various shapes for people then send it out? Might be a good idea. That way people can get a variety. Since they don't see the rock people are getting from Fiji, I think it's hard for them to tell what people are getting. I do not doubt they have happy customers. I had been recommended by other RC members to them. So I trusted them. I guess, I just got a really bad batch. Again 1 piece is usable. It's smaller. Looks more branchy. It's very fragile though. A piece of it broke so I put it in my sump. Oye. I will have to post some more pictures soon. Hopefully, I will capture the rock better.

[aquarius77]

Good Luck with it.
I think it will all work out, keep us updated.

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you. I hope everything will work out. Still haven't heard anything from Birdfish/Livestockusa.org. =(

[colettem]

Marine girl - just wanted to say I sympathise with you. If you're paying for rock that has got the words "super" and "premium" in it you shouldn't expect to get the boring rubbish rock that you got sent. I would have been disappointed too. Usually getting a shipment of the best Fiji rock is just fantastic - you pull it out of the box and "ooh" and "Ahh" over the different shapes and organisms. Often you get plenty of stuff you don't want like worms or crabs but theres not much that can be done about that. Any decent seller would ensure that each box has a mix of sizes and shapes - not just big round boulders like you got. I think it may be a bit unrealistic to expect all the rock to be covered in purple coralline but to suggest that you have deliberately photoshopped your pictures is just plain insulting. I hope the people reading this thread realise what a rubbish service you have got and take note. Given the profit margins on these things the seller could have quite easily sent you some extra fantastic peices of rock or given you a refund rather than publically insulting you.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

Are we having fun yet? Welcome to the People's Court. :)

There are many issues that need addressing, the rock, rock weights (later), and what is being said about us here. I apologize.
It was not our choice.

A lot of the Fiji out there is boat rock, and ours is not, hence the difference in appearance. Ours does not sit for weeks as live
macro life forms (worms, snails) prove. That is also why you have to wait for your order when you place it with us.

As we in the industry have said for decades: "Anyone who thinks the customer was always right was never in the tropical fish business". :)

First and foremost in my view, there is never any acceptable reason to rant publicly without being 100% factual. No matter how angry one is, one must be honest, and factual. To do otherwise is abusive. This is no place for fiction and drama. You can not say "anything you want or need to" that disparages a person or company. A single false word is little more than holding a knife to someones throat, and terrorism when done in a forum like this, no matter how mad you are about some injustice, perceived or real. We do not negotiate with terrorists here.

You can't honestly fix a customer's problem until the customer is honest about the problem. If you have an honest problem, you deal with it honestly.

MarineGirl received a reply from me this week saying we were working on her problem (trying to keep up with it) and would be in touch shortly. Her friend received 3 responses from our office this week (which it is clear were passed on). Plus there has been a public post, for a total of 5 responses this past week. Hardly what has been characterized here. This is typical of the constant unfortunate mis-characterization of the transaction, for the sole purpose of swaying public opinion negatively. (Manipulating)

We are really sorry you didn't get your dream box. Virtually everyone does, as besides this, we hear weekly that "the rock is as good or better than what we show on our website" (and see pictures). Every kind of rock, every time. Where are all the other "bad rock" threads? We have literally tons of extremely happy customers. No one has done a fraction as much to show
live rock variation as we have. As one astute person has pointed out, there are some boulders on our website. Another sharp cookie noted there is Pistachio (green) coralline on your rock.
Proving once again, that all of us are smarter than any of us! :)

We understand and sympathize with your disappointment with the shapes. And we will do something to try to make you less disappointed. But you have to be honest about everything, all the time, meanwhile. Why send e-mails saying you don't want to slander us, while you do and are.

I have not responded completely in private because you chose to make this public, and you have made it clear it is not altogether safe to say things to you. You have the uncanny ability to "quote" things that were never on our website! Without the facts there can be no truth. Without the truth there are no facts.

Each day this past week you have gotten on this board and lamented how we didn't give you *the small pieces* you ordered, in one way or another. Is that honest? Now let's have another look at what you really wanted, what you ordered, and what
really transpired. The most grave concern was that you got large pieces. Since you talked and communicated with Mrs. Birdfish, I am going to hand it over to her .....

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Dear Miss Gina,

I would like you to remember back to when you were first
ordering your live rock. Just think back for a moment,
with a clear head ... to our first e-mail communication.

Your message stated the following:

"I am going to be ordering the Ultra Fiji Premium
Large Pieces. ... ... I would like some Large pieces,
but also maybe some smaller ones."

Now, what did I tell you when I responded? Okay, in case
you don't remember off-hand, I will refresh your memory for
you ... I was very firm in what I said ... I told you that
the "large pieces are very large" ... remember? I think you
do remember, as you have stated recently the following:
"I informed the company of the size of my Aquarium.
A 40 gallon breeder.
I asked for their advice on the rock to purchase.
I was led to the smaller box of Fiji Ultra Premium.
Not the large show pieces.
That is what I am referring to when I say the smaller pieces."

I think your memory was refreshed by your dear friend Wendy,
as she and I had three e-mail correspondences last week ...
and I sent her a copy of the e-mails between the two of us.
She had been under the impression that you were
"recommended the box of small shapes, and that is what you
purchased" ... so I sent her a copy of our e-mails in order to
clarify this, as the "smaller" pieces that you ordered were only in
RELATION to the Fiji Large pieces we carry, which I explained to
you were "very large" ... so what she had been feeling you
ordered ("small shapes") actually was a misconception. We
appreciate the time Wendy took in trying to bridge the gap in
communication.

You have asked what kind of research was done recently in
regard to helping you ... some of this research and analysis
was the retrieval of the actual correspondence record, which
I located in attempting to clarify the situation with Wendy.
The reason you were not contacted personally, is because there
was communication with Wendy, who, in essence was
representing you. Please do not take this personally, but we
actually WERE addressing your issue. Wendy has explained that
you are dissatisfied with the size and shape of your live rock,
and, from your posts here, it is quite clear that the size/shape
issue is at the forefront of your displeasure.

For those reading this, and, for the sake of this letter
to you, Gina, I will recap some of your comments made here.
These comments are listed in the order in which they were made.
In an effort to make myself more clear, I have capitalized the
word "smaller" or "small" in all of your messages.

"I ordered the SMALLER sized rocks."

"I was supposed to get varied pieces in the order thank you.
Some larger and some SMALLER."

"Yes when I ordered the SMALLER piece box I was told I'd get
SMALLER pieces and maybe a few larger ones."

"What happened to my SMALLER pieces?"

"This just makes me want to cry. I ordered SMALLER rocks. =*("

"I wasn't expecting the exact shapes, but something similar as
their website medium depicts."

"I was expecting SMALLER pieces from what I had asked them.
I asked them what size box they recommended.
The Large show piece box, or the regular box.
The regular box I was told would have SMALL, medium and maybe
a large piece."

We cannot express to you how very sorry we are that you did
not receive the size and shape of pieces you had in your mind.

If we had known that you wanted SMALL pieces, we would have
told you that we do not carry them, as we have to many people
who come asking us for smaller sized rocks.

But, that's not what you said ... that's not what you said you
wanted.

As much as you would like to believe that you ordered "smaller"
or "small" pieces, you did not. I truly feel for you. Perhaps it was
an enthusiastic mistake, perhaps you were thinking small as
opposed to medium ... although that is not what I said. If you
were to think "small" at all, it could only be "smaller" ... as in
RELATION to the Large pieces, which I told you were "very
large" ... the next size down, or smaller, than "very large" is still
large.

Just in case this was not absolutely clear to you, I re-stated this
again in our second round of correspondence.

I will re-cap the entire correspondence here for you, with
peripheral information in regard to shipping, etc. deleted so we
can just focus on what was said in regard to size. I would also
like to point out at this time that our website has always stated
in regard to our Fiji live rock that "large pieces are not
uncommon." We do not carry a selection of small pieces and they
are not an option when placing your order.

Your Initial Inquiry:
"I am going to be ordering the Ultra Fiji Premium Large Pieces. ...
... I would like some Large pieces, but also maybe some smaller
ones."

My Reply:
"The large pieces are very large ..."

Your Second Inquiry:
"If I ordered the other box of Fiji would I also get some larger
pieces as well? Or should I just go with the large? This is going
in my 40 gallon breeder aquarium."

My Second Reply:
"As for the sizes within a regular versus large pieces box ... you
would more than likely receive some larger sizes in the regular
box ... a *mix of medium to medium-large* pieces. It would
probably be better for you than the Large ..."

Since you initially were going to order the Large box; and since
you stated at first that you would like some "large pieces" ... and
since I had explained to you that the "large pieces are very
large," with your response persisting in "would I also get some
larger pieces ... or should I just go with the large?" ... how in the
world would I have ever got the feeling you wanted small pieces?

I clearly stated that with the regular box that you would "more
than likely receive some larger sizes" ... I did say a mix of medium
to medium-large, but I never said small. Nor, did I
say "smaller" ... and even if I had used the word "smaller," it
would have only been in relation to the Large, which I had stated
were "very large."

Now, this may appear all rather redundant to you, but the point
is that you have stated, over and over again that you did not get
what your ordered ... that you ordered "small" or "smaller"
pieces, and this simply is not the case. Granted, we would have
liked to have seen some more medium pieces (since that is what
would have made you happy), and yes, more shapely pieces
would have worked better for you ... it is because of this that we
will do our best to help you, but not because you ordered "small"
or "smaller" pieces.

For the purpose of this letter and for the readers here who may
feel that the words small and smaller have no merit, I ask you
only to read how many times one of both of these words have
been stated in Miss Gina's repertoire.

Now, I don't mean to repeat myself, but I just want to make sure
you understand that this was YOUR statement and not mine:
"... I would like some Large pieces, but also maybe some smaller
ones." Yet, you have stated here the following, "I was told I'd
get smaller pieces and maybe a few larger ones." What was my
answer to this when you were ordering? I said, "The large
pieces are very large ..." in other words, large is "very large" ...
so smaller than "very large" is still going to be large.

How do you expect us to feel when we read the following? ...
"This just makes me want to cry. I ordered smaller rocks. =*("
or, "The regular box I was told would have small, medium and
maybe a large piece," or "I was expecting smaller pieces ..."

We feel for you, truly we do. You were expecting smaller pieces,
we have no doubt about that now. But, it wasn't because of
anything we told you. And, we try to show as many examples of
the Fiji live rock as we can on our website, but we can't possibly
show them all. Each box is unique ... however, we do agree with
you that the pieces you received are bulkier than you wanted or
than what you were "expecting" ... but that has nothing to do
with what you were told.

The truth is that you did not order either "small" or "smaller"
pieces ... anything having to do with "smaller" was only in
relation to "very large" ... which is still large, or, as I said,
medium-large.

If we could just go forward from here, it would serve us both very
well. However, it is our belief that it was first important to make
sure that you understand what you ordered and that you did not
order small pieces. Perhaps now, with this knowledge, you will
feel a little better about the situation. Other issues in rectifying
this situation will continue, but first and foremost, the basis of
your order during the ordering process was put to the test with
your statements and this needed to be clarified.

I apologize for the length of this letter, but, in all fairness to
our customer and to the members of this forum, it seemed that
this matter needed to be openly discussed. Thank you.

(Mrs. Birdfish)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Another view (with some light shined on the subject) :

<img src="http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-10/1093947/gina1-lightingadjusted-cropped.jpg" width=511 height=240>


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

more later....

birdfish

[lukekempf]

It looks alright to me. Not going to get much better than that for the price you paid.

[::PixelFish::]

"research, analysis, international communication..."

Sorry but what has all this babbling got to do with a customer getting a box of bad live rock?

MarineGirl, break your live rock up and buy some nice pieces from another vendor when you can afford it because you're going to wait for a long time to get resolution.

[MarineGirl411]

Yes, initially I had asked you if the Large box pieces would be too large for my Aquarium. I will not deny that I asked you that. Why would I? I have made very clear that I am a hard working and honest person. I have NEVER said anything that wasn't posted on your site. ANYONE from RC can go to your website and look for themselves. You did inform me that the large show box pieces would be about 4 large pieces of LR. It would be too large for my aquarium. Yes, you did tell me that I'd receive various sizes. It has made me cry and I am being 100% honest. I started crying at work, then I cried at home. Ask Wendy if you don't believe me. You included small sized, medium and large in your e-mail to me. Honestly, everyone why would I lie about this? WHY? What would be my point? I'm not getting anywhere. Customer Service should always be a number 1 priority with any company. I got a box of bad rock. Many people here agree with me. I am not saying everyone, I am saying many. Yes, Wendy did write to you because she felt I was getting nowhere. I feel horrible about this. I will never order online again because of this. I will go to my LFS and see what LR I can find there. I will save my money and this time do it right. I am not a vindictive person. I'm looking for rectification. I don't believe this should be equated to "The People's Court." You state,
"There is never any acceptable reason to rant publicly without being 100% factual." -I miss Gina agree with that and I was not ever doing this. I was being factual Kathleen and Mitch.
"No matter how angry one is, one must be honest, and factual. To do otherwise is abusive. This is no place for fiction and drama. You can not say "anything you want or need to" that disparages a person or company. A single false word is little more than holding a knife to someones throat, and terrorism when done in a forum like this, no matter how mad you are about some injustice, perceived or real. We do not negotiate with terrorists here."

This is truly and honestly a horrible thing to say to me. I don't even understand how you could put me in the same ballpark as a terrorist. This really hurts my feelings. That in itself is so utterly abusive. I have never said anything of the sort to equate to, what you have just stated in the above. How could you? You have now recognized the injustice here that has taken place on behalf of your company. You admit the pieces are not the "best quality and they are bulky." My father called to speak with you and you will not even speak with him. I am not a kid. I am an adult. I've been through life. This is a horrible thing to say to a person. I am upset. I got a bad box of LR which you have even stated was not good. That was my point. I really hope no one else EVER has to go through this again.

[MarineGirl411]

Also, please tell me, how do you know what's inside your box of live rock you send out? Did you look in my box before sending it out to me? My LR came in from LAX. Not Texas.

[blot60]

Oiy Vay

[tibbs2]

The problem is you should be ordering rock by how much the average rock weighs or the average length or width.

"Small", "medium" and "large" can be interpreted differently by each person and are relative terms.

Not really the vendor's fault that your definition of "small" is not the same as the vendor's definition of "small" or "smaller".

Chris

[Peter Eichler]

Holy drama! There's really nothing wrong with that live rock and it's hardly base rock, let it go already...

[MarineGirl411]

Okay everyone, thank you all that have supported me. Thank you all that have viewed your opinions. I appreciate everyone's input. I really cannot take someone that would put me in the same ballpark as a terrorist. I haven't killed innocent people. I haven't hurt anyone. I will not feed into this anymore. I just want to thank everyone. I will be in the process of deciding what to do. If I decide to break the rock I will post my pictures so everyone may view. This is no longer in my hands because I cannot handle being attacked like this. I have given this up to the Man upstairs as I cannot handle this. My integrity has been put on the line. I've been drug through the mud. I am not a liar. I am an honest person. Those who know me personally can attest to this. I didn't fabricate ANYTHING. Again, I've always been and will always be 100% truthful. If birdfish replies on the board, I will reply, back. For now, Thank you. I will keep everyone updated.

[birdfish]

Hi all,

First to clarify some mis-information posted, we never suggested the photos were put in photoshop by the photographer.
We said we (and you) have to do so to see what it really looked like.

Here is another one of the original photos taken by the customer right after it was received, with only lighting adjusted to see more accurately how it really looked.

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-10/1093947/MG.jpg' >

Had the color not been burnt out by flash overexposure there would be much much more color visible than shown here.

For those that think this is cut and dry, here is the story so far.

Two to three times as many people thought that this rock was worth the <$3/lb. or okay (or better), than didn't.

We appreciate (almost :) ) everyone's opinions. Thank you all very much.

We have had many customers that would have loved the rock.

I'd like to cover a few customer service issues because I think
they're important. One thing is that our "customer service" does
not merely take action if there is a problem, it starts before you
order. In this case, this person attempted (twice) to order XL's.
The person was talked out of that, based on other info they were
giving us. They would have received half as many pieces twice as
big had we not done so. Many companies would not have cared enough to do that in the first place.

Second, when the shipment was enroute, the customer was
e-mailed at 9 p.m. local (our) time with a "heads-up" on the shipment's arrival, and how to pick it up, so it wouldn't sit overnight.

Third, MG's father called and left a message on our office answering machine after closing on Friday night (7 p.m. local time here), although he did not state who he was. He called again during business hours Monday and talked to our office. The only thing that "refused to talk to him" was our machine (but it did listen), which typifies the accuracy of what has been put forth here by the buyer. He asked why the rock was dead.

Now, nowhere on our website does it say we sell small rocks, so any definition is a moot point. As shown in our prior post, it was clearly stated the regular box is medium-large to large sized pieces. The word small pieces/rocks was not there, is not on our website, and never was. We send people away all the time who are looking for small pieces. There are plenty of guys selling softballs and baked potatoes. We don't.

As for seeing our rock, we see it all the time, and probably a greater percentage of it than most other sellers. I spent so much time at LAX I have jet fuel in my blood, and I like the smell of it. :) As an example, another customer who also received a box of this particular Fiji shipment, sent pictures when it came in, and again yesterday. It looked very like those here when it came
in, and now it looks fantastic, less than 2 weeks later.
He got a live starfish. So how long does rock sit when there
are live starfish?

Many moons ago when I was customer service director for a "Fortune Second 500" company, I learned that customer service problems can only be solved after the irate customer has stopped ranting. They have to let the steam off before you can arrive at a reasonable and fair solution. Rarely an irate customer may feel that the ranting must not have been sufficient or a solution would have been forthcoming. Also the more fiction, the harder it is to find the facts. You can't solve the problem until you have all the facts. If a customer is complaing they ordered blue, when they really ordered and got red, sending blue is not the solution. Then it will have supposed to have been green.

Finally, for now (there are several very important issues others
brought up that we would like to address), we have offered this
customer a couple of possible options to help remedy the situation.
And, if possible, we hope that something can be agreed upon to make them happier.

birdfish

[benray4fun]

Birdfish, I really don't think you need to say anymore...

Obviously this live rock was bought by a novice who expected way more than reality will allow...."please forgive already."

In time MG will see and experience what we all have with live rock orders and that's inevitable as we all know..."THANKS EVERYONE"

[MarineGirl411]

One thing is that our "customer service" does
not merely take action if there is a problem, it starts before you
order. In this case, this person attempted (twice) to order XL's

You know what? This is a complete flat out lie. I tried to order XL 2 times? Really? How come you never charged my card? I didn't try to order XL anything! I asked for your advice on if I should get the "large show box pieces." It was not extra large and I never tried to order it. I am being honest with you. Why don't you write me these things in e-mail? You've never once said, "Gina you tried to order extra large pieces and we would not fill it for you because your tank is too small." First off, I would NEVER order X-Large pieces. X large pieces for a 40 breeder? I'm apart of 2 Reef Clubs, and I am a member on many other forums. Do you honestly think I'd be that irresponsible to order X large pieces? If you said I tried to place the order 2 times what happened with that? I am honest. I'll let anyone look at my credit card statement. I have absolutely nothing to hide. As for you giving me a heads up on the rock and when it would be in, you told me it would be in the following afternoon. As late as 1:00. It arrived at 7:30 that evening and I was not aware of this. Your company informed me you would let me know, but even though I figured I wouldn't be informed, I went on the Southwest airlines Website. Saw it came in at 7:30pm and by the time I checked, they were closed. Now that is the honest to God's truth. I picked it up at 5:30am that morning right on the button. I can provide the Southwest air lines receipt if you wish. Right when they opened is when I picked it up. So it wasn't sitting long.
I was there when my father left the message and tried to get a hold of you. He tried earlier and there was no answer. He kept trying then left a message. He stated who he was and that he would like to talk with you about my shipment. He gave you his phone number and where to contact him and let you know it was very important. He was not rude and is a great dad for trying to help me. He can give you his cell phone information if it is so desired. He did not ask why the rock was dead. He stated that his name was Richard, his daughter's name was Gina and he needed to speak with you about my shipment and how the rocks were "boulders." Then he talked with you Kathleen. You told him to tell me to calm down and that you are working on it. He told you there were spiders in my shipment, you only stated that's what you heard. No apology. He informed you that these pieces were not like the pieces on your website media that you portrayed. That they were so large they resembled boulders. You told him it wasn't your best shipment and you can see from the pictures what I and he was talking about. That yes, they indeed looked like bulky boulders. He read your post back to me and asked you why you compared me to a terrorist. You said absolutely nothing to that. Why wouldn't you answser me or him? Why won't you still answer me? I am very open to what you have to say about this. Please, let me know why you stated this. I feel very sorry for the Fortune 500 company that you were a customer service director for. I've dealt with irate customers myself. Many times. I have always been very considerate and helpful. No matter how vile or how they cursed at me. That is the truth. I've never once yelled at you over the phone. I never once e-mailed you something that was vulgar, vile, or equal to how you responded to me. How would the irate customers I have dealt with, feel if I referred to them as being like a terrorist? You should be ashamed of even saying anything like this. How would the families of victims that have been struck by terrorist's feel by your statement? If anyone wants to buy this rock for the price I paid for it, I will sell it to them. Gladly. I'd just warn them before hand that they look like boulders. My camera skills have nothing to do with the shape of this rock. I never tried to order X-Large pieces. Never. I asked your opinion on which rocks you would suggest for my 40 breeder, before I place my order. I would LOVE to see where I "tried to order X-Large pieces 1 time or even 2 times." I never tried to place an X-large lr order. If everyone goes to Livestockusa.org to view their photo's they do not even have an Extra Large section to purchase their rock. Or that type of rock. When I went on the website before, I was able to pull pictures off the website and save them to my computer. Wendy noticed today, that you went through and added some boulder like rocks to your website. You also put up a program that would not allow someone to copy the pictures off your website. Why? Why would you do this? I let everyone know that I would respond, if you posted here. This is what I am doing. I feel and many feel you sent me a bad box of rocks. I never said everyone agreed with me. I said quite a bit did. Yes, you finally did write me after 1 1/2 weeks to try and offer suggestions to helping me with my rock. I really appreicate it, even though it was very late. Break the pieces was one example. Trading for frags was another. Or you could send me some small LR. I do not trust your company after this. I am a novice, I am not arguing this Birdfish or Benray. Just see you posted Benray. I'm not saying I'm not a novice. I am not claiming to be an expert. Wendy who has been in the biz of reefkeeping for 10 years, a reef store owner who has been in the business 20 years, and many people on the forums have agreed with me that this rock does not provide me with the shapes that were portrayed on your website where I could place corals. I've seen quite a bit of LR come into the reef stores and pet stores. None of it looked quite like this. I'm not the only one that thinks this, as you have seen. I wasn't expecting dream rock. I wasn't expecting anything out of the ordinary. I was just looking forward to getting all the various shapes you offered on your website. Keep in mind not the exact shapes since some seem to think I thought I was getting those pieces. I know they were not those pieces.

I'm not trying to be high and mighty. I' not trying to act like I know everything. The facts are, I got boulder shapes period. You are lying about things I supposedly said or did. I will stick up for myself, when I am being wronged. I believe most people in my same position would do the same. Thank you all for your help and advice. I really appreciate it. This is not in my hands anymore. Thank you Father.
I'm sorry for making people upset. That wasn't the intention of this thread. Thank you.

[MarineGirl411]

I feel like I just cannot trust Livestockusa.org to try and make this right. If you can (they can) and are willing to replace the rock size boulders, with some nicer varied, and smaller pieces, I will do my research and will work on trying to get this resolved. I really don't feel, I can trust a seller that would compare me to a terrorist and one that would say I am lying and tried to place 2 orders before for X-Large rock. Not mentioning other things that have been posted before. I've been through too many tears, too much stress, and worrying. I'm sorry, it just is very unsettling. I have not lied. I'm not whining. I'm just stating what I feel. Please no one get upset with me for this. Please. I would really like everyone's advice on what I should do here, what they would do if they were me. Please go back and read the posts. Then reply with your own message. Please put yourself in my position. How would you feel? What would you do? I'm just completely worn out by this. This experience has caused me to never want to order anything online again. Nothing at all. I even questioned if nothing happened, how would I afford to buy all new rock that would benefit my system? Months and months of saving and eating noodles. I'd do it if I had to. I just might have to. Please everyone, please please don't be angry with me here. I'm just a hard working American like you all out there , that has to strech their budget , if allowing, to
make way for your passions. They way it should have started off. Let me know what you all would do. I just feel I cannot trust them after what all has been going on here. Would you?

[Boat Racer]

I would sell that crappy looking boulder shape rock to a LFS and then try another vendor.There are many here that have gotten great rocks elswhere.

Its the bad side of people that come through the internet in insulting and mean manors.I sux that some have treated you like they have.Some of yall need to grow up and treat people as you wish to be treated.

Things will work out in the end cheer up.:)

[Bono]

I pity the poor LFS when your first hermit dies.

[kizkiz]

What a great read.
amazing how opinions can differ.
2 things i want to add.

1. MG - please start using paragraphs!! I didn't even bother reading your last few posts as they were doing my head in. sorry

2. base rock - in the good old UK it refers to dead rock such as tufa, lava, etc. Never heard of it mentioned anywhere on the 5 or 6 forums and many clubs and shops i visit as anything else.
I agree with whoever it was who said about semantics. you guys have been arguing the same side really. lol

[Kayadad]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9002740#post9002740 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Bono
I pity the poor LFS when your first hermit dies.

agreed.

I too did not read the last two posts as this thread is becoming repeative. I think your rock looks OK! It sure is not the best loooking rock I've seen, but it does not look too bad. Rocks come in all shapes.

[MarineGirl411]

Thank you
I will use paragraphs from now on since it is offensive.

[MarineGirl411]

If I get a hermit that dies, then that is fine. Thank you for your post. If you spent almost 250.00 for something that wasn't as portrayed, I think you'd be a little upset.

[MarineGirl411]

thank you boat. Bono, I think if you spent about almost 250.00 and didn't get what was portrayed on a website, you'd be upset as well. Also being put in the same category as a terrorist, is just plain mean and shows no customer service skills. So I'm sorry for everything I've done once again.

[Bono]

Every single person on here has spent money and not received what they expected or equipment that has not worked as advertised.

I have purchased Seaclone and Berlin Skimmers, Rio pumps, cheap heaters etc, all of which were advertised as high quality and turned out to be junk.

I've purchased from Aquacon (complete disaster) and recently purchased 4 dead lettuce nudibranch's that I now have a credit for but I must purchase addition livestock and pay shipping to use my $26 credit. I went to my LFS and purchased 2 recommended peppermint shrimp that were devoured by my hawkfish in 10 seconds.

I'm truly not trying to bash you and I completely understand your disappointment. When I'm PO'd, I lexplain it in the Vendor Forum and take it as a lesson learned.

[Agu]

Enough, take this private !

Closed.............