Powerheads Vs. Closed Loops

[benray4fun]

I've heard a lot about closed loops and the use of power heads to get water movement. What are the advantage/disadvantages of both...:confused:
I don't see why some would drill their tanks and add all these plumbing eyesores when a couple of tunzes would do just fine...

[2swift]

Comes down to preference in my opinion.
But there are benefits to both as well as draw backs I myself want to do a closed loop but my power head has not given me a reason to change yet.

[benray4fun]

Good point 2swift, looks like my 802's won't be giving up for a while either. Even then I'll just upgrade to the tunze's, unless someone posts some real facts to consider and justify doing all that extra work.

[drummereef]

I personally think that even with a closed loop system you will still have to suppliment with some type of powerheads in the tank. Most of the big tanks I've seen still implement powerheads in some fashion. With the advent of Nanostreams, Vortechs, and Maximods, powerheads have really come along way.

[benray4fun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8884198#post8884198 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drummereef
powerheads have really come along way.

I'd have to agree...

[Bono]

I've read several times that a closed loop is cheaper than say Tunze's although, when you look at drilling the tank, bulkheads, plumbing and cost of a large pump as well as the increased electric bill, the cost is about the same. The closed loop look is definetly cleaner than powerheads but the install is about 10 minutes with PH's. In the end it really all comes down to personal preference.

[MayoBoy]

I have both. A Tunze for gross movement and an Eheim with a rotator thingy closed loop for randomizing.

[Brisc0]

I started with 4XMaxi 1200's on a red sea timer, moved to a single tunze, then a pair of tunze, now I have a closed loop with Penductors and I have to say that they all did the job just fine. The only pro i give the closed loop over powerheads is the ability to add outlets on the sand in the front, and other places that a powerhead would not work. The other thing is that with a closed loop you don't really have to worry about keeping things like anemones or nudis who are usually impeller bait on a powerhead.

[BigJPDC]

Don't forget you can build a CL that goes over the back (melev style) of the tank, so without any drilling. They are infinitely customizable and camoflageable and do not introduce electricity, heat or suction cups into the display.

jp

[techreef]

I too run a CL on my 90G tank. It's over the top like Melev's design, and requires zero glass drilling. To me, a CL makes much more sense than using PH's, for several reasons.

1) No animal will ever be stuck/ground up/killed/stressed by my water flow system. I've read too many PH stories to the contrary to feel comfortable using them w/ slow moving animals like anemones, mandarins, etc.

2) Only my CL pump adds heat to my water. This may break even w/ using multiple PHs due to the size of my CL pump (a Sequence Marlin) but I'm not sure.

3) It's cheap! $25 max for the PVC parts and solvent.

4) Like BigJPDC said, there's no electricity introduced into the tank either. One more potential problem avoided...

The main reason I chose to use a CL was animal safety and peace of mind for me, knowing that nothing in there would nuke my tank following its death via PH.

[dcombs44]

Here's a modification of melev's over the top closed loop. I run mine on an ocean's motions. I couldn't be happier with the random flow, but I also use 2 maxijet 1200s for surface aggitation and to fill a couple dead spots.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f166/dcombs44/HPIM0442.jpg

[drives300]

The over the back look does not look better than two tunzes in my opinion. Also its not that hard to hide tunzes within your rocks

[dcombs44]

The pipes in my setup are starting to get covered with coralline. They don't stand out near as much now as in the picture. Plus, as I add more rock, they will be hidden better as well.

[Craig Lambert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8885693#post8885693 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by drives300
The over the back look does not look better than two tunzes in my opinion. Also its not that hard to hide tunzes within your rocks

Have to agree. If I were to switch to a closed loop it would be primarily for asthetic reasons. It would have to be drilled to avoid having pipes in the tank.

[dcombs44]

I would've loved to have done the same, but my side panels are tempered. The next tank will be drilled, but my purpose is served quite well for the time being, and like I said, with the coralline growth, it's not as noticeable.

[BigJPDC]

White pipes in front of a blue background is a poor choice for comparison.

I used black painted pvc against dark sand and a tinted background and mine is almost invisible, along with the black on the seaswirl return. A PH in my tank would look ridiculously out of place imho.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q180/BigJPDC/All%20Fish/Equipment/IMGP7548.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q180/BigJPDC/All%20Fish/IMGP7863.jpg

jp

[Craig Lambert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8885890#post8885890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dcombs44
I would've loved to have done the same, but my side panels are tempered. The next tank will be drilled, but my purpose is served quite well for the time being, and like I said, with the coralline growth, it's not as noticeable.

Is that an ocean motion? What percentage of your flow is provided by the cl? Looks like it's substantial.

[benray4fun]

Power heads only hurt or kill slow moving animals when aquarist fail to add a prefilter screen. That's an inexperienced beginners mistake, one that I'm guilty of myself...:(
I'd like to see more facts on these closed loops (don't want to pre-judge), but so far, I see that these closed loops take up just as much space (if not more) as power heads, more time, work, materials & planning.
If anyone see's it differently please post and let us know, as I'm open for other opinions and more learning. Surely there are more interesting facts about closed loop systems that this thread isn't aware of, cause if it's purely preference..."power heads" have a closed loop system beat by a mile IMO.

[Alaska_Phil]

My powerheads are mounted on the uplift tubes of small sections of undergravel plate. I perforated the heck of of the tubes so now I don't have to worry about suction cups failing, or animals getting sucked into the powerhead. :)

Phil

[dcombs44]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8886112#post8886112 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Craig Lambert
Is that an ocean motion? What percentage of your flow is provided by the cl? Looks like it's substantial.

Yeah, it's an ocean's motion. I use an internal/external pump that puts out 1506 gph. It is by far where the bulk of my flow comes from. The remainder of my flow comes from 2 maxijet 1200s and a mag 7 on my return.

The OM is a 4 way super squirt that spins opening 2 return lines at a time 1&2, 2&3, 3&4, 4&1. I couldn't be any happier with my setup except, I would've liked grey or black pvc, and I couldn't find any locally.

[dcombs44]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8886499#post8886499 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by benray4fun
Power heads only hurt or kill slow moving animals when aquarist fail to add a prefilter screen. That's an inexperienced beginners mistake, one that I'm guilty of myself...:(
I'd like to see more facts on these closed loops (don't want to pre-judge), but so far, I see that these closed loops take up just as much space (if not more) as power heads, more time, work, materials & planning.
If anyone see's it differently please post and let us know, as I'm open for other opinions and more learning. Surely there are more interesting facts about closed loop systems that this thread isn't aware of, cause if it's purely preference..."power heads" have a closed loop system beat by a mile IMO.


I would say that a closed loop, in most cases is used for aesthetic reasons. They take up less space (in a drilled tank) and give you the option to have flow coming from the front bottom corners. I would say (especially in comparison to tunzes) they are cheaper for the most part. Of course this depends on the pump selected.

[benray4fun]

Jpdc, your closed loop set-up is very clean and very well planned. Good
job...:hammer: :thumbsup:

[dcombs44]

Unfortunately, mine was put in after the tank was set up which made it very difficult to measure things out properly prior to installation.

I agree, very nice job Jpdc.

[benray4fun]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8886712#post8886712 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dcombs44
I would say that a closed loop, in most cases is used for aesthetic reasons. They take up less space (in a drilled tank) and give you the option to have flow coming from the front bottom corners. I would say (especially in comparison to tunzes) they are cheaper for the most part. Of course this depends on the pump selected.

You're right, especially in jpdc's case you can see the planning cause it's very clean. I don't know if he drilled it, but I don't see any real plumbing which is great.

I'm just saying all the power heads are just drop, plug'n play. Unlike the closed loop system. If you were to take all the necessary plumbing in the tank along with the pump and add up the total volume, it would actually take up more space if the tank is not drilled..."correct me if I'm wrong."

[dcombs44]

I agree with you. The pump of course takes up space, but it's not in the tank. From the looks of things, he did not drill his tank, he just used black pipe with black background to camoflauge his closed loop. The only thing taking up tank volume would be the pipe which in his case would only be one single pipe (see picture). The returns are on the bottom, and most of his pipe is under the sand taking up virtually no space in the tank with no drilling. He did a very nice job. Now my tank on the other hand :) The pipe is a bit unsightly, but all in all, still doesn't take up much space, and I have powerheads anyways. I originally wanted to go with as clean of a look as possible but just couldn't accomplish it and have my tank inhabitants thrive like I want them to on my budget. I don't mean to come across as arguing, I am just giving imput from my experiences, hoping to help in your decision. Best of luck!

[fishdoc11]

IME powerheads are easier to install but a PITA to clean every couple of months especially if you don't have a good way to mount them such as magnets.

You don't have to clean anything on a closed loop but the penductors(if you use them)every few months and the pump once a year or so. This takes less time than cleaning even well mounted powerheads just once if the CL is designed well IME.

If you use black PVC and clear fittings CL's are much less noticeable.

Like has been stated I still have to use a couple powerheads in addition to my CL and return to get the flow I want.

hth, Chris

[Ursus]

I've always been partial to closed loops, but unless you're going to take your time with unlike me, then I would just use power heads for flow.

If you're going to do a CL, def. get your tank drilled for it and get a good pump like a Reeflo Dart or something. They're quiet and efficient. I'm using an OR 6500 on an non-drilled tank and it is noisy as ****. I'll be removing the CL and using maxi-mods soon. My next tank will def. be drilled for a CL though.

[techreef]

another point in favor of well-designed CL systems over PHs is that they will produce non-linear and non-planar flow, unlike PHs. I understand that the better PHs like Tunze and Seio's produce a non-linear flow, but (just guessing here) it's still planar. Corals reportedly respond better to the most randomized flow patterns that you can accomplish. My CL manifold sits entirely outside of my tank, on top of my tank, inside that rim of plastic that holds the top of the glass walls together. I have a canopy on my tank, so everything is hidden, except for 1" of black PVC pipe from the 9 nozzles coming off of the manifold. These nozzles break the surface of the water, and point down at something like a 30-degree angle from horizontal. I've got the nozzles pointed so that the flows coming out of the nozzles collide with other nozzles' flows, thus creating a randomized water flow pattern throughout the tank.

Currently we're discussing on Dudester's tank thread how my system may eventually become non-random after running for some set period of time. But that is a discussion on whether or not my system could delete the need for a SCWD in the CL setup, not whether or not it's better than PHs.

Touche! :rollface:

[barbra]

my system may eventually become non-random after running for some set period of time.

That's exactly what mine did, running 2 maxijets and a CL with 4 exit points. It took a couple of months before I noticed it happening, but it happened. It didn't occur to me that it might happen until after it did, and then it all made perfect sense. Now I pull the plugs off the wave timers and put them back in another spot every few days and it's cured the trouble.

[JPMagyar]

When done right, as in Steve Weast's (http://oregonreef.com/images/photos/p_002_l.jpg) world famous tank, a closed loop is invisible, safe for all inhabitants, and most importantly allows for pump maintenance without disturbing the interior of the display.

BUT, I ran a closed loop for 2 years before switching to Tunze's and personally I am sold on the ease of setup, controllable alternating current, broad flow pattern, and most importantly the cost of operation for Tunze Streams vs. closed loops, but in my heavily stocked SPS tank I have found that the Tunze's required frequent cleaning to keep their optimum performance, and I would think that burying them in the rocks to hide them would not be possible unless the rock work was easily movable. Finally I would note (and this is based on circumstantial evidence only) that my corals seemed to improve in color and health when I added the Tunze Streams to the tank. I believe their health improved because the nature of the flow pattern created by the Streams was so much stronger but broadly patterned and pointed directly at the corals versus merely smashing against the sides of the tank.


Just another opinion. :rolleyes:

Viszlat,

Joe

P.S. The closed loop had four outlets including 2 Sea Swirls, and used an Iwaki 100 for the pump.

[BigJPDC]

thank you for the compliments, I should have pointed out that the first picture is missing the pvc which leads up and out of the tank - hugging the MegaFlow. A Mag 9.5 sits on the floor behind my stand, connected to the inlet and outlet by plastic tubing.

This is a much better shot where you can see the in tank plumbing.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q180/BigJPDC/All%20Fish/IMGP8555.jpg
Something I like about this rig is that I now have all three outlets aimed to give a circular flow, like what you would do with a swimming pool. It is fun to watch the CBB chase food around and around the rocks and junk doesn't have a chance to settle on the substrate. In my research I believed that this was the most critical flow to establish.

benray - you are absolutely corrrect in that all the plumbing takes up more space, but nobody should be looking behind my tank anyways. I had to move a plant and a chair just to take this pic. =)
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q180/BigJPDC/All%20Fish/IMGP8553a.jpg

jp

[zemuron114]

CLs need carefull planning to get the right flow. If you do a CL right it is perfect for flow. However, PHs are good for flow that a CL cant hit, like a corner of the tank or something. Whenever i ugrade to my big tank i will do a surge device.. this cant be beat for power and flow. I will also of course add some tunzes (my new favorite powerhead :)) on a controller. It is personal preference and if space is limited then CLs aren't your best option. :)

[Waxxiemann]

I was thinking about this thread and it occured to me that for almost the same price as a Dart, OM 4 way and all the plumbing, you could have 2 Vortechs and have almost 2 times the flow.

Just my 2 cents.

[benray4fun]

Like I said Jp..."nice work," thanks for going out of your way to upload and show us. And..."yeah" nobody should be looking behind Jp's tank!...lmao
Now that I look at it, it's still a lot of plumbing and IMO just as much space is taken inside the tank as two power heads. Also, I don't like the chances of the pump going bad and leaking on the floor, that would
just be a nightmare...:eek2:

[mntl]

I have a smaller tank (20/20/12) and getting random flow without having 4 pumps on controllers (mini streams?) was becoming and issue. Another problem was wattage in the tank adding heat, so limiting the # of pumps was another priority. I finally went with a wavy sea on return (700gph from sump) i use a wide round outlet, so not a ton of direct force. In 3 years this is the first time i have been able to hit every spot in the tank without blasting any specific spot. The problem i had was, i did not like how my return or powerheads would point in one spot and blast that one spot, i was tired of having multiple pumps blasting multiple single points. Now i just turn up the speed that the nozzle moves (side to side) and everything gets hit but nothing gets continually blasted. Before i had 1300+gph in the tank and flow was direct and still missing spots, now i have 600 (after head loss) and the flow hits the whole tank but pounds nothing. Plus, no need to drill holes if your tank is already full. Only gripe i have is the portion outside the tank is not very small, but the lack of equipement visible in the tank and controllability makes up for this imo. there are even brackets to mount a tunze to it, make it pulse and move side to side :) .

--just my .02c

--mntl

[benray4fun]

I just wanted to get a comparison between closed loops and power heads. I basically see that it's the same thing, just routed differently, also, it comes down to personal preference..."I see that now." Either way your just getting water movement in the tank and either way you go you can't go wrong. It's just a matter of simplicity (power heads) or
complexity (closed loop systems) hobbiest have different problems and therefore have different needs to their solutions...

[BigJPDC]

I think powerheads just got cool again.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1009835

jp

[lpkirby]

I like my CL because my temp went down 2 degress by getting rid of all the PH, I am using a Dart for my CL.