How often do you feed garlic to treat ich?

[Terry B]

I have seen several different frequencies for feeding garlic to fish. Some say to feed garlic twice a day for three weeks and then once a month after that. Does anyone know the amount that Dr. Kelly Jedlicki recommended at MACNA XI?
TIA,
Terry B

[naso tang]

i had a hippo tang that came down with some ick after being introduced into my tank. i bought some kyolic garlic, the liquid stuff that comes in a bottle(its water solubule so no oil slick!!) i soaked some frozen brine in the garlic overnight, i fed to the tang for a week and i havnt seen the ick on the tang or any other fish in my tank(i know that doesnt mean its gone)for 4 months. this could have just been a coincidence, but i credit the garlic soaked food with helping the tang fight the ick off. i havnt fed the garlic since the spots went away, i now soak the food in zoe. im not sure if this is true, but can the fish build up an immunity to the garlic if fed every day? thus making the garlic useless when an ick outbreak happens?

[john f]

Tangs frequently get Ich when newly introduced. They also recover by themselves quite often. The fact yours did while feeding him garlic does NOT prove the garlic cured the Ich.
Heck, last night it was a rainy night and I won 5 bucks on the lotto. So I guess the rain helped me win the lotto!


John

[PopeShawnPaul]

That's funny John, your right in a way, but garlic definitely helps. I had a new tang that got a few ich spots and I let him try and fight it naturally for a couple weeks. I fed my tang garlic, and it was gone within a day. I have seen these types of results with my friends also.

If it works 9 out of 10 times, is it still the rain?

[Frisco]

I too had success using garlic oil soaked fish food treating a purple tang that had previously been quarantined and showed no signs of distress. Upon addition to the tank, it started showing some type of spots. The spots appeared to be getting progressively more widespread for the next several days, and I attempted to feed garlic oil soaked food because it seemed like the most benign option available. Lowering the salinity, increasing the temperature, adding copper, or doing anything else that has presented historically as a viable option to treat marine fish ailments did not seem realistic with my situation.

I soaked the frozen food cubes in garlic flavored olive oil for about 12 hours, then refroze it, rinsed it VERY thoroughly, and fed about 2X-3X per day for the next several days. Within a day or two, the spots disappeared. I continued to feed the oil soaked food every couple days for the next month, and the spots never came back. While it certainly might be a bit simple minded to assume such a simple cause-effect relationship, it sure seemed pretty reasonable in my mind given my observations. I've never had any other problems with white spot since, so I can't commment further.

I can say that I think one could argue that there are a whole lot of things in this hobby that nobody understands - arguing that something doesn't work and isn't worthy of further examination just because we don't understand (or haven't yet identified) the mechanism is a bit of a fallacious argument. This has the appearance of being a viable treatment and seems worthy of further discussion.

[john f]

Ok,
Here is my experience.
I tried to use garlic on an Ich outbreak involving 5 or 6 fish in my 135 reef. Used the kyolic brand as everyone at the time said it worked the best. Soaked frozen cubes in it, did not even bother to rinse. Fish all greedily ate it up. Fed this 3 times a day for 7-10 days. I saw ZERO improvement during that time.
Used another treatment and eventually the Ich cleared up, after lossing 1 fish.

What we really need is a study on this. I have offered to assist in both a financial and a hands-on capacity several times. Nobody has ever offered to contribute. I could do it but I am not a scientist and would like some input from scientist types on this board with regards to controls and methodology.
Any takers???????


John

[john f]

"arguing that something doesn't work and isn't worthy of further examination"

I don't think I have ever said this. You must have misunderstood me.
See my above post and you will see I am very interested in further examination of this and any other possible treatments for cryptocaryon.
What I am not interested in are anectodal stories which try and link cause and effect based upon limited experiences.
I have used these in the past myself, as have most others. These stories do not advance the scientific knowledge base.

How many times have you read " Wow, I used additive (X) and immediately my corals opened up bigger and grew faster than ever before" Then that same guy 6 months from now is telling you additive(X) is crap and it killed his corals.

John

[Lobster]

Ich isnt a 'disease' that you can just cure. Its a parasite, and as long as the fish is stressed out and conditions are favorable for the parasite to do its thing, it will. Garlic alone will not "cure" ich.

You have to first correct the conditions in your tank, meaning you must first remove whatever has caused your fish to decline to a state that favors the parasite. This is the stressor. This might be a chemical problem, a harassing tankmate, dietary deficiency, new to the tank... anything, but your first step in fighting ich is to remove this stressor.

Once conditions are again favorable for your fish, <i>then</i> you fight the parasite. Garlic is thought to cause the parasites to leave the host. I've had alot of luck with garlic myself, so I would definitely say it does work, <b>once the stressor is eliminated</b>.

If the stressor is still in the tank, feeding garlic is of little use, because conditions in the tank favor the parasite.

[BOOM BOOM]

It works, no it doesnt, yes it does, LOL :D

Seriously though, from what I understand Garlic will not in any way kill off Ich, BUT, It will raise the fishes immune system to help fight off Ich that is present in the tank. I was also told that Ich is always present in the tank, just like cold virusus being present in the air. If your fish is healthy it can fight off the Ich, just like if you are healthy you can fight off the common cold. The garlic will help keep the fish healthy and it will also keep you healthy. I am no expert and have no proof, just read alot and talk to a lot of people.

[naso tang]

your right john f. its all just a big conspiracy

[Q-ball]

I agree with several of the things said above...I have used Garlic before as well and it did seem to help. Did it cure it? I dunno, but ya know what? My fish like the taste so it's not like there's any harm;) I do think garlic helps, when combined with removing stressors from the fish's environment and simply feeding it good food & alot of it! I think alot of people will agree with me that the best prevention is keeping the fish happy. Just my .02...

Q!!!

[billsreef]

Hi John I like your willingess to experiment. The main crux to coming up with a real set of data is to set up several identical tanks. The next trick is to stock them with Ich infected fish, ideally the same species and same number in each tank. One tank will be your control, this one gets no treatment for the ich and is maintained and fed the same way as the other tanks. The remaining tanks are maintained the same but will be fed garlic soaked foods. Your observations of what fish recover will be the data. Obviously the more you can test the better and more reliable the data.

I did this a couple of years ago with hyposalinity and even some of the so called reef safe remedies. Unfortunately some changes at work have left me unable to perform the same sort of experiments on garlic at the current time, but I'm working on changing that :D

[john f]

Hey Bill,
Thanks for the reply.
I was thinking also that 2 tanks could be controls, 2 tanks could be fed with garlic soaked foods, and 2 tanks fed normal foods but have garlic drops added to the tank water. This way if garlic does seem to improve the Ich we could see if it did so directly or internally through the fish.

The tanks could be small 10 gallon size if the fish were small. I was thinking about blue hippo tangs?

Terry,
Which species of fish would be easiest to work with and what would be the best way to infect all the fish with the same exact strain of cryptocaryon?

John

[MiNdErAsR]

I've never used garlic to treat anything in my reef. My question is, how do all those fish survive in the wild with no garlic available?

[jimhobbs]

Originally posted by john f
The tanks could be small 10 gallon size if the fish were small. I was thinking about blue hippo tangs?

Tangs in a ten gallon?..Would that not create a stress situation; in and of itself? :)

[GOOD (G)REEF]

I believe ich is partly due to poor diet. Well, maybe not poor, but not as well-rounded as the fish might get in the ocean. I've heard of people feeding brockoli to help bring up the fish's vitamin C levels, which helps out alot. Just my $.02.

[john f]

Tangs in a ten gallon??
You might be right Jim.
Have any suggestions yourself?
Small hippo tangs are available all the time at my LFS that are about 1-2 inches in length.
One of the problems in sorting this problem out is that if I place a 2 inch tang in a 55 gallon tank with no other fish and no stressors, he will most likely recover spontaneously from the crypto.
My thoughts were to induce a slight amount of stress with the smaller tanks so the fish WOULD NOT recover by itself.
This then puts the burden on the remedy to affect a "cure"

John

[KW]

I don't know about garlic and fish but when I go backpacking I take along plenty of garlic. Eat plenty of garlic and as you sweat it out it acts as a bug repellant. I wouldn't recomend this for everyday living but, if you are out in the woods who cares what you smell like :)

Maybe it does the same thing for ich as it does for bugs. I don't know. I have no interest in putting garlic into my reef. Thus, I have not read a thing on this subject.

[billsreef]

Hi John,

The thought of garlic in the water having an effect is something worth looking into, however you still need to have at least one tank without any kind of treatment to be a control.

For using 10 gal. tanks possibly damsels might be a good bet, as they are both small and inexpensive.

Good (G)reef

Broccli is usually recomended as a high vitamin C and vitamin A containing food to help ward off and even cure Head and Lateral Line Errosion. Though the vitamin C will help with the overal immune system of the fish.

MiNdErAsR

The difference between the wild and our tanks is that small glass box. In the tank the crypt reproduces and has the same fish to infect. Each one reproduces into roughly 200 more crypt tomites in that small box, pretty overwhelming, hence the need for ich cures in our tanks.

[Phishmon]

those little hippos are perfect
and seen as they are larval caught and raised they
are not the ich magnets they have the reputation for
the ones we get in are great and never get sick

the ones that are ich magnets were exposed to too many chems and are having problems getting back the immune system
thats why I only get the larval raised ones and net caught fish
then there are very few problems


so no worries on the ich

if you fix the stress the ich goes away there is usually no reason to treat for ich

feeding good foods Etc

but shouldnt you be going that already

so basically with good husbandry and no stress you wont have ich problems

[Frisco]

I would like to move the discussion about testing procedures to another thread I started to try and allow the original questions to be answered. Here's a link to the new thread (in the disease forum) and I urge you all to participate! http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=10066

[Agu]

Terry,

My experiance using garlic (McCormick garlic juice) has been inconclusive at best. When my powder blue tang showed spots of ick(?) treating the food appeared to help. After he came down with a full blown case of ick 6 months later the garlic had zero effect. Perhaps the spots being treated aren't ick, the treatment is only effective against light infestations, or it loses it's effectiveness.

Application was daily for a week soaked into his daily nori. With the fullblown case daily for three weeks, until I finally caught him. The ick was unabated for the entire three weeks. btw, he's now in a q tank undergoing hyposalinity.

Agu

[Terry B]

Boomboom,
Your analogy of ich being similar to a cold virus is faulty. A virus and a parasite have little in common other than the fact that they are both pathogens. Cryptocaryon irritans is an obligate parasite and it is not always present in our systems or water. This has been proven in tests and is a commonly know fact at fisheries. Like Billsreef said: “The difference between the wild and our tanks is that small glass box. In the tank the crypt reproduces and has the same fish to infect. Each one reproduces into roughly 200 more crypt tomites in that small box, pretty overwhelming, hence the need for ich cures in our tanks.�

John,
There are at least three different strains (not different species) of Cryptocaryon irritans, but to date there hasn’t been any difference found between the strains for resisting any particular therapy (i.e. copper, hyposalinity, garlic, etc.). The species used for experiment depends partly on the tank size. Personally, I wouldn’t use any tangs. I would favor a hardier species possibly a damsel. A species that has large clear fins would be a good choice because the telltale white spots would be easily visible. A dark body color would probably make it easier to see the spots as well.
If you want to be sure that all the fish have the same strain of infection you would have to do two things. First, examine skin and gill scrapings from every specimen to determine if they already had a subclinical infection. Second, you could place all the fish in one large tank or several smaller tanks that are on a community system and share the same water. Once the fish are all together you could introduce a specimen that has been examined and known to harbor Crypt. Some form of stress will increase the spread of infection and reduce the resistance of the fish, but ich can spread to fish that are not stressed beyond what nature intended (nature intended the release of stress hormones to be adaptive in nature). It is in the unnatural setting where fish cannot escape a chronic or acute stressor that the adaptive process become maladaptive (including reducing immune fuction).
I haven't yet formed a firm opinion about garlic at theis point. I suspect it has a use in lightly infected fish and sometimes can be helpful in more advancecd cases. However, I still don't think it is as effective as copper or hyposalinity. This could mean a lower success rate and a higher incidence of reinfection.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Can anyone answer my original question?
Terry B

[Rowdy]

Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

My 55 reef has been impecably free from white spot since it's inception. My brother in law's reef on the other hand is constantly infested due to frequent fish additions , my opinion. He has lost several nice fish and has also brought several through mass infestation of white spot. (with garlic I believe)
Well, the other night, saturday to be exact, he brought over a nice piece of rock hosting some extra hardy xenia he's been growing. Naturally, I took the rock out of the cooler full of water and plunked it into a nice spot.
I have two Tangs, a real nice, healthy and vibrant medium sized powder Brown Tang and a nice healthy smaller hippo Tang. I've had both fish in this reef since early June and neither of them have ever shown signs of unhappiness, they both eat voraciously and I feed them a well rounded diet including lots of seaweed. These are my only fish and in a 55 gallon they have enough room to swim, for now, because the reef is designed to be rather open in the front.
This morning, 12/12/00 @ 2:30 a.m. I was checking on my reef before work and noticed that my Tang has several white spots such as one would associate with White Spot Disease or Ich, whatever. I didn't even consider the parasite might hitch in on a rock or the minute water standing on it from the other tank. But this is what happened, I know it. My tanks record has been too good through all of the stresses a beginner can put on his fish. My Tangs have been stressed many times through my rearranging rock work etc., that wet arm all the time faze, that get every speck of algae off of the glass fze... etc. they have never shown vulnerability to white spot. My Hippo when first introduced, got himself stuck to the intake line for my Magnum350 that runs the skimmer and had a giant white round hickie on his side for weeks yet he never showed signs of white spot. What I'm saying is, the theory of the parasite being everpresent might not be dead on. I believe it may have a certain dormancy after it's inception in a system and remain present to one extent or another, but I have no evidence to support it either way.
All of my parameters are dead on and my coral are all happy as ever, there have been no fish or livestock additions for a long time other than this xenia, this is why I attribute the outbreak to that.
Now, I have taken no action yet towards treatment. I do not plan on setting up a hospital tank nor do I feel safe dosing any medication into my reef system. I am willing to try garlic though, and possibly a vitamin concoction might be in order to investigate the self-rid theory. I don't plan on losing these fish either, my brown tang is practically hand tame and will eat from my fingers.
I am willingy to follow advice or experiment myself systematically to further bolster or dispell treatment theories. Right now I count about 6-10 grain of sugar sized spots on the brown tang, none on the blue, yet.
What are your thoughts or comments?
I'll be checking back this afternoon.

[billsreef]

Hi Rowdy,

Sorry to hear about your ick outbreak.

Part of the life cycle of ick is to spend it's reproductive phase on the substrate, as a result is quite possible to introduce ick on something like a piece of rock from an infected tank :( Something that we aquarists often forget about.

I've yet to see a quantitative recomendation on frequency of feeding garlic soaked foods. Based on feeding other medicated foods, and the frequency even us people must take medications such as antibiotics I would assume several small feedings spaced throughout the day would do the best job at sustaining a steady level of garlic in the fish, and thereby give the best chance at effecting a remedy.

Let us know how you make out.

[jimi]

I beleive ick is always present. A tank I had a few years ago had been problem free for about a year. I left a window open one night near the tank and the temp dropped quite a bit. The next morning my powder brown had ick. It continued to get worse and I lost him but I definately believe healthy fish can fight off ick. My present tank has been problem free for over a year. My purple tang and emperor had a small out break of ick when they were added to the tank but quickly recovered. Now 3 weeks ago I added a powder blue ,from Rons saltwater heaven, which now has ick and has showed signs of it from day three. He is eating well and turned on my ozone to run 24/7. This seems to help greatly because no other fish has any on them and the powder blue looks great other then some ick spots he eats great and depite the ick is not breathing heavey or scratching. I have started to feed them garlic soaked foods but may never be able to tell what helped, the ozone, the garlic, variety of food, good water quality, or just healthy specimens from day one.

[OrionN]

John,
There is nothing except anecdotal evidences regarding garlic use in reef tank. To me, there is no evidence that garlic works. There is some evidence that garlic will not harm the reef tank in "low" doses and for a short time.
Personally, I would not use it because I don't seem to need it in my tank even with the heavy level of stocking in my tank. Just be cause a person have a Dr. or MD in front or behind their name does not mean that what they said is correct. Dr. Kelly Jedlicki maybe a vet, this does not cause me to belive in what she said without evidences.

[Terry B]

Rowdy,
I don't have time for an in depth answer right now. I will try to post again late tonight or tomorrow. I think you are right about how you imported the parasite.
Terry B

[dragon0121]

Minh,
I don't think anyone is claiming the garlic is a cure for all cases of ich. It has been clearly stated over and over in this thread that anecdotal evidence shows garlic may work or it may not work. Over the last year, as this discussion has bloomed on the net, most of the advicacy of garlic has been by the hobbyist not by PhD's. If enough anecdotal evidence can be gathered, a foggy picture of what is going on may appear. With little to no scientific research being done on aquariums the hobbyist is left with little other than anecdotal evidence. Many processes that have been studied in nature have been extrapolated into our aquarium environment, but in reality they haven't been studied in an aquarium. Anecdotal evidence is very important, you just have to realize the uncertainty involved with its useage.

[Staceon]

Terry,

Dr. Kelly Jedlicki is the VP of the Louisville Marine Aquarium Society, which can be found here:

http://www.lmas.org/

You can find the contact info for her there if you are interested.

[OrionN]

I just found out that Kelly Jedlicki is not a vet. From the pictures on the Louisville aquarium Society, she seem to keep fish only tanks. I understand, maybe I am wrong, that she was the first person who recommended garlic for salt water/reef aquarium.

[Terry B]

Mihn,
You are right, I was mistaken about Kelly being a vet. She is a Certified Pediatric Nurse Practitioner that happens to have a veterinarian friend that helps her with her research. I have corresponded with Kelly, but she hasn't shared much information with me yet.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Jimi,
Ich is not always present. I won't go into the details now, but it has been proven in laboritory tests.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Rowdy,
The tomont (reproductive stage off of the fish) stage of the parasite will attach to most any hard surface. If you place rock out of an infected tank into your reef then you will import this pest. Fish can be in perfect health and unstressed and still become infected with ich. Stresses fish are more susceptible, but healthy fish are not immune.
Since your fish have only a few spots this may be a good time to try garlic become the infection becomes advanced. If the garlic doesn’t help you should still have enough time to use another treatment. I have used garlic and vitamins by adding them to a portion of live adult brine shrimp several hours (8 hrs seems to be a good number) before feeding them to the fish. I used Kyolic brand liquid extract. Adult brine shrimp are filter feeders so they ingest the garlic and vitamins you add to their water. Then the fish get the additives when they consume the live brine shrimp.
You can also just soak other foods in it.
Terry B

[jimi]

TerryB I wont go into a debate about ick I can only speak from my experiences with it and my lfs who has over 25 years experience very successful at that believes its always present.

[dragon0121]

Jimi,
Sadly all that experience at the LFS hasn't taught them the life cycle of a very well understood, obligate parasite. To put it simply, without a host (read aquarium with no fish) C. irritans will not survive. It has no dormant stage and won't just hang out in the tank indefinately. Now, if the system alway has fish, then yes, sorta, kinda, Ich is always present, maybe. These characteristics of this parasite are very well understood in the scientific community, it's the hobbysts that keep spreading mythinformation. The tank doesn't have ich, the fish do, to a point, then you have the other stages of ick where its in the sand briefly and in the water column briefly. If no fish are present the reproductive cycle is broken, end of ick, period. If you add another fish with ick, boom, it is present again, and now you have a host to keep it alive indefinetly. TerryB spends a lot of time trying to explain this to people, and they just don't seem to understand the fact that if you remove the fish the parasite eventually dies. TerryB has always recommended proper quarantining and treatment of fish so that ich is not introduced into the aquarium, thus it is not always present. :)

[Bomber]

Dragon, well said. Jerel

[jimi]

Yes, That was well said and you are correct obviously fish have to be present. But there is more to ick then just a 21 day life cycle and its gone. There has to be a dormant stage or how else could a tank with fish ick free or no signs of ick for around a year suddenly have an ick outbreak after a stressful night? If ick is such a well understood parasite there would be a million cures for it not just a few ify ones.

[Terry B]

Jimi,
Just because you don't understand all the ways that ich can be imported does not mean it is some magical or mysterious disease. Ich can be eliminated from a system by leaving it fishless for a minmum of 30 days or treating the tank. No dormant stage has ever been found and its life cycle has been studied extensively. This is an old wives tale or superstition that is perpetuated by those that do not fully understand this parasite. If you sincerely want to know more about it I will provide you with the information or suggest were to get more information. Yes, it is possible for a low level or subclinical infection to be ongoing for a period of time. This in no way disproves the fact that the parasite is NOT always presnt. Most of the time people just don't realize how it is getting in their tanks.
Terry B

[billsreef]

Jimi,
There are 2 good and consistant cures for ich, do you really need millions. The problem comes in when people do not properly quarantine fish before adding them to thier reef tank, and thereby ending up with an ich outbreak in a tank that also contains inverts. Those reliable cures will also kill inverts, no one as yet come up with a consistantly reliable cure that is invert safe

[Rowdy]

Update: 12/14/00

After the first day of seeing spots on my Brown Tang, (I noticed about 6-10 on sides and fins), the Tang began to become spot-free. Today he looks as though he is fine with no spots and none of the strange behavior he was exhibiting like backing into holes and rubbing etc. His appetite never faltered and he looks happy as can be. I never noticed any spots on the Hippo, his only tank mate. I hate to get too excited as I know this might just be a stage, like the quiet before the storm so to speak.
I never altered his diet to include garlic and the tank routine is same as usual. I am starting to wonder if this fish isn't on a self-help kick or whether or not I'm about to have an ich outbreak. I guess I'll be patient and see how this thing works out on my own. I don't want to add garlic if I can help it. I'll update when I get home later this evening if there are any changes.

[Terry B]

Rowdy,
Occasionally ich clears up on its own. However, it is part of the natural life cycle for the spots to fall off only to come back worse than ever a few days later. This is probably what you are seeing. Why are you hesitant to add a little garlic to the food?
Terry B

[OrionN]

Terry B.
Why do you thing garlic work for Ick, and not harmfull to the fish or other inverterbrates in the tank? I just ask and see if there is anything out there I missed and did not read.

[Terry B]

Minh,
Garlic was first raised as a crop for flavoring food in Asia, but it is now popular around the world. It is reportedly useful as a tool to combat high cholesterol, high blood pressure and many other conditions in humans. To date there have been more than 2,000 scientific studies on garlic including testing it for applications for chemoprevention, and as a antimicrobial, antifungal, antiprotozoal agent. It has also been tested for antioxidant activities and immunologic activity.
Garlic has been used in veterinary medicine for a variety of ailments. Dr. Angelo Colorni, of Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research LTD, investigated using garlic on fish for its mild antibiotic properties. (Histopathology of sea bass Dicentrarchus labrax experimentally infected with Mycobacterium marinum and treated with Streptomycin and Garlic
(Allium sativum) extract. Aquaculture 160; 1-17.)
I am telling you all this to establish the fact that using garlic for a medicinal purpose is not a new idea or coming from left field. The evidence for its effectiveness as a treatment for fish ailments is largely anecdotal at this point, but we have to start somewhere. The mounting anecdotal evidence warrants further investigation. I suspect garlic may prove to be useful for maladies other than Cryptocaryon irritans. I tried it myself on a fish that I suspected was infected with internal worms. The fish has begun to gain body mass and has recovered its normal coloration. Does this in itself prove anything? Of course not, but it does motivate me to take a closer look.
Terry B

[jimi]

Maybe I was'nt making myself clear on my opinions of ick. I am very aware of the reported life cycle of ick and have read many articles on ick. I do not think it is some mysterious creature but what I mean by always present is if you quarentine a fish and do not treat it just wait to see if it has a break out, it does'nt and you add it to your main tank and some day something goes wrong you can have an ick outbreak. If it does'nt have a dormant stage can anyone explain what happened to my powder brown years ago? Does anyone out there honestly quarentine live rock or live sand which can transport cyst? Just curious anyone else out ther use ozone? I have had excellent results using it for ick. As I mentioned before I recently, over three weeks ago, added a powder blue which did get ick and still has some but NONE of my other fish have any sign of it. The powder blue does not even seem to mind the ick its colors are excellent, it eats like a horse, and does not scratch at all. I think the ozone reduces the number of ick in the water so it does not over come the fish until the stress is gone and they shake it themselves. It worked for my other fish over a year ago, plus it produces super clean water.

[OrionN]

Thanks Terry.

[dragon0121]

Jimi,
A perfectly healthy fish may have a low level case of ich. No outward signs of infestation and because the fish is healthy the ich will not get to plague proportions. The ich goes through its normal reproductive cycle and keeps reinfecting the fish in the tank, which are healthy enough that no visible damage occurs. I know that both my Coral Beauty and my Naso tang showed a little bit of what appeared to be ich when I place them in my 180g. I fed them well, with selcon soaked food and a varied diet, and the outward appearence of ich disappeared. But I have no illusions about whether the fish have ich, if I stress the tank via too many fish, incompatible fish, or a small disaster I fully expect that my fish will come down with ich. No dormant stage need be present, just the fish and the ich, and the cycle continues merrily on its way! :D

[jimi]

Dragon, I agree with you partially. If the life cycle is continuing the ick should become visible before it drops off. If it is not becoming visible it cant be feeding off the fish.

[dragon0121]

Hi Jimi!
Do you take your fish and examine the gill plates and inside the gills? I believe this is the most common area for ich and it would not be at all visible to us outside the aquarium. Maybe TerryB can jump back in here (much more knowledge about this than me :) ) and fill in where the ich is surviving and why it's not visible. But they have studied this progression most definitely in fish, and with out a doubt ich is not always visible to the casual observation.

[Terry B]

Jimi,
Yes, fish can be infected and still not manifest visible spots. This is called a subclinical infection. The only way you can detect it is by examining scapings from the gills.
This is most often seen in the early stages of the disease when the less resistant fish have visible spots. The fish without visible spots are usually still infected, but just in the gills. It is possible for the parasite to continue its life cycle without seeing visible spots on any of the fish. The majority of the time if the tank is infected you will see spots, but not always.
Terry B

[jimi]

ok, I did not want to go into a debate but if a fish has ick in its gill plates or inside its gills and is not noticable on the outside sooner or later according to most articles I have read it would be at infestation levels in under a month or at least noticable, again I ask can anyone explain what happened to my powder brown or powder blue for that matter which was at my lfs for at least a month or more under uv/ozone/copper? If anyone out there doubts the integrety of my lfs, Ron's Saltwater Heaven, I believe a few of reef central board members visited his place a few weeks back and can tell you he has some of the most healthy livestock they have seen.

[john f]

Actually Terry B has in the past vigorously fought the notion of subclinical infestations being common enough for long periods of time in reefs.

He appears to be willing to conceed the point finally.


John

[Terry B]

JohnF,
I have not changed my position on the subject. You either misunderstood or misread what I have said.

Jimi,
If it is a matter of integrity who is right then you doubt the integrity of people like Dr. Edward Noga, and Dr. Angelo Colorni! Dr. Noga is one of the top two aquatic specialists in the USA and Dr. Colorni is considered the worlds leading expert on Cryptocaryon irritans (saltwater ich). They both would NOT agree with you based on controlled laboritory tests! I will have more to say about this late tonight or tomorrow. Gotta go.
Terry B

[jimi]

Just because they are Dr.s does not mean squat. It does not mean they have the experience some aquarist may have. If you go to three doctors for a medical condition you will get three different answers based on what they think.

[john f]

Jimi,
Let me just save you the trouble of getting into it with Terry and summarize his basic positions:

1. He knows more about crypotcaryon infection than anybody who posts to this board. You cannot possibly have a valid opinion or belief about the subject unless it agrees with his!

2. He is smarter than everyone who posts to this board.

3. In the unlikely event he is proven wrong, he can always blame it on Dr Colorni!

4. If you have any question about any of his positions, please refer to #1 and #2.


John

........I'm sure one of the moderators who back him up will jump in now to tear me a new one :)

[jimi]

Thanks John, enough said.

[Ironreef]

I don't claim to have experiance with ick. cuz fortunatly I rarely/never get it. Good husbantry is the best methoid. But refering to being a DR. one who studies something under a controlled environment should be able to fiqure out the life sapn of something simple as ick. it's not like research for AIDS. Seems to be pretty simple reshearch for a labratory doctor. Measuring the lifespan of a single celled parasite should be simple . JMO

[Bomber]

Terry, you mentioned feeding garlic to live brine. What proportions were you using? Something like one tsp per qt of water? More? Less? Thanks Jerel

[Twinspot99]

Interesting debate. I was just telling one of my LFS re using garlic as an alternative treatment. I like to make one small comment re: Terry B's reply to BoomBoom. Virology 101 :Virus is an ultimate parasite. No flame intended.:)

[hcs3]

why bother with garlic, or any treatment for that matter. if you do things properly, you'll never have a problem. it really is that simple. why make it so tough? simply put, if your trying to cure/prevent illness, your doing something wrong.

henry

[Terry B]

Jimi,
Are you trying to compare your expertise and that of your local fish store with the experts I have sited? These people are not just doctors they are specialists in fish disease. Do you believe you know more about this subject than they do? If this is what you base your contention on then your argument couldn’t be much weaker. I am fully prepared to debate you on the subject. I have already offered to supply you with the information or resources to study the subject. Apparently you would rather just bury your head in the sand and cling to your beliefs. This gives me the impression that you have a “don’t confuse me with the facts attitude.� If you really want to debate the subject then lets do that. If you simply resent facts based on scientific eveidence then there is little I can do to help you understand Cryptocaryon irritans more fully.

John,
Apparently shared knowledge is of no use to you if it comes from an acknowledged expert. It would be nice to set up a live public debate between you and Dr. Noga (Aquatic medicine specialist and professor) or Dr. Colorni. I can see it now. My opinion on this subject is based in verifiable facts. You on the other-hand promote raising the temperature to 86F as a cure for ich, despite the fact that valid studies have proven otherwise. At the very least, there should be an overwhelming amount of anecdotal evidence to support the effectiveness of a treatment as some sort of foundation.
I suppose you would suggest to scientists that they should accept every opinion that is ever expressed despite the fact they are based on little or no verifiable evidence. If people follow that kind of thinking a lot more fish will end up dying from Crypt. Quinine, quinacrine, Methylene blue, Malachite green, freshwater dips, coral vital, raising the alkalinity, cleaner wrasse, UV, formalin, acriflavin, Metronidazole, antibiotics, Melafix, and wide assortment of so called reef safe treatments have all been heralded as cures for ich. Some of these treatments have no effect on the disease at all, and the others are only partially or inconsistently effective. Why don’t you advocate these treatments while you are at it?
Go ahead and disagree with me, but at least be prepared with some sort of references to site. I give references to support my opinions just like people give references to support the books they have written. I see one underlying word through your comments and flames. It is called jealousy.

Landescaper,
I have not seen a definitive answer on the minimum dosage required to be effective. Jedlicki uses one 1500mg gel cap per fish up to 3 times a day. That sounds really high to me, but she doesn’t seem to think she is overdoing it. So far it seems like everyone is making up his or her own feeding resume. I took a guess at it like everyone else and added about 6 drops of liquid garlic extract to a cup of brine shrimp water. BTW, the brine shrimp were very concentrated in the cup. I have asked for other people to tell us how much garlic they have used, but I haven’t gotten a lot of responses. BTW, I am not convinced garlic is a cure for ich, I just think it warrants investigating.

Twinspot,
The way in which Crypt is transmitted and its life cycle are vastly different that virus’. For one thing ich is not airborne like a cold. The analogy between ich and the common cold is like comparing apples to oranges.
Terry B

[jimi]

Terry B I will not debate it anymore with you but seeing as you know everything and because you know everything it cant only be based on what others have wrote but has to be your experiences as well, Right? I just want one question answered if ick has no dormant stage, what happened to my powder brown years ago that never showed any visible signs of ick and had no new additions to the tank for about a year?

[Ironreef]

one theory is your fish can have ick. But if its healthy it won't affected= fish sliming it off so you would never see it. The fish is just hosting it.This makes ppl think it always in the tank?? then it can be stressed from new additions,water quality ect... the fish may get weaker and give the ick a chance to spread and the fish can't slime it off. making it weaker ect....

[john f]

Right Ironreef.

But this is what many of us have been claiming for some time. Terry continues to ignore the fact that many reefers have Ich outbreaks after long periods of NO additions to a tank, including live rock, corals, or sand.

In earlier debates he downplayed the idea of subclinical infections as being significant. Now he seems to acknowledge they may play a role in some of these unexplained outbreaks.

I recently added a Sailfin tang and 2 butterflies to my 135 reef which had not had any other additions (including corals or sand) for at least 5-6 months. The tang and butterflies had been kept in quarantine in a large garage system for several months with no signs of infection. The garage system has NEVER in 6 years has a fish with Ich housed in it.
So how in the world is it that my sailfin tang developed Ich spots after about 3 days in the new tank? I submit this tank has Ich present subclinically and has for many years been able to sustain this parasite despite the fish within going for years sometimes with no outward signs of Ich.

I don't doubt Terrys' assertion that if I removed all fish from this system for a few months the parasite cycle would be broken. This is not a practicle option for a 10 year old reef setup with several fish. I would have to destroy the entire tank to catch the fish.

Not to mention every new fish addition would have to be quarantined in hyposaline conditions for a month, and all new corals and live sand additions would have to be quaratined with no fish present for at least a month.

I keep many SPS corals. Most reefers do not have a quaratine setup sufficient to house an Acropora for 1 month without stressing the coral before it has even made it to the main display tank. This approach would require every reefer to own 1. A display tank 2. A coral quarantine tank set up as a regular reef tank (lights, live sand/rock, etc. 3. A large quarantine tank for fish only to be kept in hyposaline conditions.

So the most practicle way to approach Ich is for most reefers to assume it to be present and to minimize stress so the fish can fight it off. This is the part that gets under Terrys' craw, and is also the reason we need to have REEF SAFE treatments for Ich so when we do experience an outbreak, we can stop it without tearing apart our tanks.

John

[Terry B]

Jimi,
Since you asked for an answer in a civil manner I will respond. To begin with, a UV light does not cure ich. It can be used to control it by killing much of the free-swimming stage. The problem is that all of the free-swimming stage must flow through the UV before it comes in contact with a host. The tomont stage hatches, for the most part, during the night when the fish are less active and close to the bottom of the tank. This makes it relatively easy for the parasite to find a host quickly with such an easy target. UV lights are more effective at preventing ich from spreading from one tank to another when all the water must flow through the sterilizer before it reaches the next tank when these tanks are connected by sharing the same water. The same can basically be said about ozone. Most stores that routinely keep copper in their systems do so at sub-therapeutic levels. Copper must be maintained at the correct dose on a continuos basis for several weeks to be effective. If the dosage falls below what is necessary for only a few hours it can lead to reinfection. It is very likely that your tang already was carrying the parasite in its gills when you purchased it, especially since it was in a system with UV which can greatly reduce the number of parasites in the tank, but most likely not get them all. With the stress of being moved and chilled the tang then began to show spots.
Healthy fish are more resistant to ich, but they are not immune to it. All it really takes is one fish in the tank that is already infected for the parasite to continue its life cycle and reproduce. Once the population of parasites has increased enough, even the healthiest of fish can be overcome. It is also known that fish that have previously been challenged by Cryptocaryon irritans and recovered have an increased resistance. The resistant fish are more likely not to manifest white spots. It is possible for a subclinical infection to maintain a precarious balance with the fish for a period of time.
The statement that “ich is always present� is erroneous. It can be eliminated from a system and the fish can be cleared with proven methods. However, reintroducing the parasite is easy, especially if you do not practice quarantining every new fish. The parasite can be imported in ways other than bringing it in with a new fish. It can be imported with water (example water used to transport an invert), in live brine, through nets, live rock, and sand (not an exhastive list). Tomonts will attach to most any hard surface including pumps, filters, etc., etc.
Fish do sometimes appear to get over ich without treatment. I suspect that most of the time if they have not been treated the infection has just become subclinical and can manifest again in the future. I would say that generally if the parasite were in the system you would have an outbreak before too long.
It is not surprising that infected fish can continue to eat well and not seemed to be terribly bothered in the early stages of infection. IMO, this is generally the case. The fish usually don’t become really ill until the ich has completed more than one life cycle. Good water quality, a healthy diet, low stress environment and the garlic can all help. Interstingly, the originator of the idea of using garlic for ich thinks it is a better preventative than a treatment. I believe most outbreaks would have been prevented by simply quarantining all the fish to begin with. To be 100% sure you would have to quarantine anything that goes into your tank, but most hobbyist won't have an outbreak if they just quarnatine the fish.You could also treat all new additions with hyposalinity as an added preventive measure or at least examine a sample taken from the fish. Maybe someday someone will come up with a reef safe and effective treatment (magic bullet), but for now we have to deal with reality and the available effective treatments.
Terry B

[Bomber]

Guys, I don't get this. Ick has no dormant stage. The research was done long ago, it was published. Jerel George Dr. Marine Zoo - yep that's me.

[john f]

Landscaper,
I'm not sure who you think is claiming a "dormant" stage of Ich. I don't think the majority of persons in this thread believe that.

Long lasting subclinical infections I do think happen.

John

[jimi]

TerryB You did not answer my question about the powder brown. The powder blue maybe because I cant guarantee this fish was ick free for over a month only 2 weeks I can definately say he was spot free at my lfs. As far as resistance to ick as I mentioned before my emperor angel and purple tang both had small outbreaks when I first added them over a year ago. I have had no sign again until I added the powder blue which showed the worst infestation at about day four or five now he has maybe 5 total visible spots left and he will be in there a month tues. None of my other fish have any visible spots which according to many articles on ick should not be possible. Subclinical and dormant sure seem to be the same if they were not any tank that has ick would be at plague levels in two months overcoming anything in the tank. If the ick is maturing on the fish and still going through its total life cycle even "subclinical" would infest the tank in short order. You may have to read back a few responses to read about my powder brown. Also John had a thing with his butterflys which would indicate dormant in my opinion.

[Bomber]

John, you are right on the money. Long lasting subclinical infections are almost a given. For all practical purposes we have given up trying to completely eliminate ick from our systems. The collected fish, rocks, coral, you name it, come in with it. We have one system with rampant ick right now (thus the garlic questions). I can almost guarantee that by doing nothing it will not be noticeable in a few weeks. However, let me put a new fish in there later, and it could be covered in a few days again. Ah, the cycles. Anywho, I really wish someone could come up with something. I really hate to see them looking like this. We have a band of about 20 pet peppermint shrimp that are getting their fill. Thanks again, Jerel

[jimi]

Landscaper I pretty much agree with you. That is why I like to use ozone when I add new fish not only does it keep your water super clean ,which a u/v does not ,it seems to keep the ick from getting to a number that even healthy fish could not fight. Again clean water is worth its weight in gold when fighting infections or infestations.

[RobertK]

Subclinical and dormant are not the same thing. Subclinical means the fish is infected (e.g. in the gills) but you just can't see it. Dormant would mean that the parasite is sitting around in your tank for an extended period of time waiting to infect a fish. Noga's book says that tomonts (the phase when the parasite is off of the fish and dividing into new parasites) have been observed to survive and release theronts (new parasite particles) as long as 72 days after leaving the fish. Does anyone know if a study has been done that inspects gill biopsies of apparently healthy fish to document the presence of subclinical infection?

[Bomber]

Jimi, Ok I give up. A lot of people have been pushing me back in the ozone ;) direction. I've even recommended it. I had an extremely bad experience with it when we were in Orlando and have been afraid of it ever since. I'll look into it again and we'll see what happens. Maybe I'll start a ozone thread this afternoon and see what happens. Thanks again, Jerel

[RobertK]

Originally posted by landescaper
The research was done long ago, it was published.

landescaper,
Could you possibly cite the reference and give us a summary of what the research showed?
Thanks,
Robert

[Bomber]

Robert, I should have known I would get into this. This is very old info for us. I'm at home right now, but I'll ask around at work tomorrow. I'm pretty sure someone should know. Jerel

[RobertK]

Hey Jerel, if you don't feel like getting into it that's cool. Whatever. I just couldn't tell what you were talking about when you made that statement I quoted. There's so much hearsay in this hobby that its always nice when someone can back up their opinion with scientific research.
Robert

[Bomber]

Hi Robert, I'll check at work tomorrow. You know the name that comes to mind on this is Martin Moe, opps, and another great mind, Dr. Mike Howell. Now I'm on Northern Lights searching for ozone. Why is it that no matter how much you do or have, it's never enough! I want a ozone generator and I want it now. ;) Jerel

[Terry B]

Hi Robert,
Nice to hear from you again.
The following statements are snippets taken from a two part series I wrote that is awaiting publication with FAMA:
In the wild, heavy infections appear to be rare. This is due, in part, to the relatively low density of hosts compared with that in marine aquariums as well as the short time frame in which the free-swimming stage of this parasite must find a host or die (24 hours). The ability of theronts to infect a host is greatly reduced after six to eight hours, dropping to zero at 18 hours (Burgess, 1992).
The time that is required for tomonts to release theronts can vary considerably taking from 3 to 72 days with the peak between 4 and 8 days. This may be a strategy for survival. However, when excysting takes more than two weeks the number of theronts and their ability to infect is greatly reduced (Colorni, 1992).
Cryptocaryon irritans live embedded in the host’s epithelium and a fish can be infected for some time without any noticeable harm. Theronts invade the epithelium quickly and the wound can heal over rapidly. As the trophont grows the telltale white spots begin to appear and become larger. In general, the initial infection and even reinfection with the second life cycle do not do a great deal of obvious tissue damage. Mortalities usually only occur after successive, severe reinfections (Colorni, 1992).
There is evidence that fish can acquire some immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans after surviving an infection. This increased resistance is not complete and can cause outbreaks after long periods of time. It is possible for a low level of infection in an aquarium to remain in check until something happens to reduce the resistance of the fish. A stressor can weaken the immune system to the point of allowing the population of parasites to greatly increase. This can also happen when a non-immune fish is added to the system. The parasite can gain a foothold on the new acquisition. As the population of Cryptocaryon irritans in the aquarium increases so does the likelihood that the established residents will be overcome.
Ultra-violet sterilizers and ozone have also been used to combat Cryptocaryon irritans. UV could be used to prevent the spread of parasites between systems, but it is not as effective at eliminating infections within an individual aquarium (Gratzek et al., 1983).
Is “Ich� always present in a marine aquarium? The answer to this question is more complicated than the question itself. A better question would be is it often present? Yes, it is often present living in a delicate balance with the inhabitants of the aquarium. Sometimes a stressor such as a temperature drop or fighting between the fish can be enough to tip the scales in favor of the parasite getting the upper hand and overcoming the fish. More often than not, if Cryptocaryon is present in your aquarium it won’t be long before the infection is obvious.

I wrote the articles I am refering to above close to a year ago. As anyone can see I have not denied the possiblity that a low level infection can exist for a period of time. However, I do feel that this is largely overplayed by some hobbyists. It is more often the case that an outbreak is caused by a new infection rather than a low level infection that already exists within the system. I also firmly believe that ich is NOT always present. It is clear from studies that this obligate parasite can be cleared from the fish and the system. In the case of wholesale operations that have a continual flow of new specimens coming through their systems this would be much more difficult to do.

Here is some additional information:
Wedemeyer’s work is a good place to start a study about this subject. Maybe try “Effects of rearing conditions on the health and physiological quality of fish in intensive culture.� Wedemeyer makes some statements in his report about obligate and facultative pathogens and the difference. He also touches on why obligate parasites are not always present.
Here are a few quotes from G.A. Wedemeyer.
“Obligate pathogens will not normally be found free in a hatchery water supply unless aquatic animal life is also present to serve as a reservoir of infection. Thus, diseases caused by this group of microorganisms will not normally occur in hatchery fish unless other fish, amphibians or eggs infected with obligate pathogens also reside in, or are introduced into, the water supply.�
“ In either case, it is important to note that although obligate pathogens cannot live indefinitely after being shed into the water, they may still survive and remain capable of infecting fish for a number of days or even weeks depending on water chemistry.�
“Disease due to obligate pathogens can be stress mediated as well, but are somewhat less frequent because these microorganisms are NOT ALWAYS PRESENT in rearing conditions.�
HTH
Terry B

[RobertK]

Hi Terry,
Thanks for the preview of your article. It sounds like the Colorni 1992 article might discuss subclinical infection (?). The Wedemeyer reference you mentioned apparently rebukes the idea of dormant cryptocaryon (beyond 72 days at least), but I'm still curious if any studies document the phenomenon of subclinical infection persisting for long periods of time.
Robert

[Rowdy]

After approximately a week from first noticing spots, my two fish have now gone through several stages. The Powder Brown lost all noticable spots and regained them as of yesterday with obvious lumps where the parasites are attached. The smaller hippo still has on and off stages with no larger spots to speak of as in the Brown.
I decided to buy the Kyolic last night and dosed a saturated .5 tsp of OSI flake (their favorite food) @ 8:00 pm. They ate it quickly and seemed not to notice the garlic. This A.M. (2:30) I dosed same amt. and noticed the larger spots already gone from the Brown and nothing on the Blue. I plan on continually dosing this treatment in this manner for approx. 30 days, or longer if need be.

Great debate everyone, thankfully I don't have much input regarding white spot and don't have much to offer, sorry.

Opps, I nominate this to be tagged for the archives if it hasn't been done.

Regards,

®owdy

[Bomber]

Terry, of course you're right on the money. This is the theory we've always practiced. "Ick" is not present in our rearing tanks. However, on a side note - We've noticed a certain amount of immunity response also. With some fish being able to handle an outbreak better than others. Unfortunately, the tank reared being less able. Thanks again, Jerel Off to work now.

[dragon0121]

TerryB,
Thanks again for all of the good information on this topic. At times it must look like an uphill battle and a thankless task, but, education can be painful at times! :D

[JSM]

I have a Regal tang that shows signs off and on. After I first got him he had a bad outbreak of ick, but recovered. Every 5 or 6 months he starts flashing/scratching and I see little white spots on him, but they go away in a week or so. He never stops eating and doesn't act sick except for the flashing...now my question is, does he have a subclinical infection during the months that he acts fine and I don't see white spots? All parameters in my tank are very steady including temp and S.G. and I don't have a clue what would make him break out in ick unless someone picks on him and I haven't seen it. Will he continue on this way until I catch him and treat which I doubt I can do without totally taking down the reef or will this eventually go away. I understand that if there's a stressor he will keep getting it but like I said I have no idea what that would be. No other fish seem to get ick when he does, maybe it isn't ick and I'm dealing with something totally different. I have seen some spots on him that look like his color has faded in those areas, but they go away within a couple days.

Janna

[Terry B]

Janna,
It is possible that the tang has a subclinical infection that flares up whenever the fish is stressed. It is also possible that you have been reintroducing the parasite from time to time. You cannot just treat the fish that manifests symptoms and expect to free your system of ich completely. All exposed fish would have to be treated. Tangs seem to be more susceptible to infection. Why this is true I am not sure. One theory is that they produce less mucus to repel free-swimming theronts. I think it has something to do with the fact that most tangs do not get a good enough variety of green foods in captivity. In the wild there seems to be a variance in resistance between species of fish. Yes, it is also possible that you are not dealing with ich. Hobbyists tend to believe anything that causes white spots is ich. I think ich is the most common cause of white spots but not the only cause. Ich or other parasites can certainly cause multi-focal depigmentation. Are the faded areas large or small? IMO, most fish with ich eat just fine until the advanced stages of infection. There is a long list of things that cause stress in fish. This tang has a reputation for being an ich magnet, but I wonder about the possibility of an opportunistic or facultative parasite being responsible part of the time.
What is the diet like? If you could catch the fish you could try a formalin dip. Have you tried feeding the tang garlic? Are you soaking the foods in Selcon and Zoe on a regular basis?
Terry B

[Rowdy]

Hey everyone,

I just got home and began daybreak in my reef......WOW does my powder brown have spots! The hippo is about the same, a few spots here and there, but the brown has become host to a whole lot of parasites. I fed them the third 1/2 tsp of garlic SATURATED OSI and they gobbled it up quick. I have fear that my reef may soon be fish-less, and I'm not one bit happy about it. How could I be that damn stupid.... kicking myself..hard. Anyway, the garlic treatment really hasn't done much yet. I am trying to keep confidence that this will work but it's faltering. I went ahead and fed my corals also and the fish ate all of the residual as usual.
My coral food is a home mix of clams, mussels, shrimp, fish, and other seafood steamed lightly and ground in its own juices then frozen. At feeding time I shave off some of the food and add some brine for the fish to snack on mostly then I add a little dried phyto plankton and some tank water and target feed everything in the tank with a pipette and bulb syringe. I do this every third day or so depending on how the coral look. (branching frogspawn, branching torch, hammer, grren nepthia, many asst. zooanthid and other polyps, xenias of different var, multiple shrooms, a few candy corals, a few different leathers, and others.) Anyway, the fish get a good bit of this as well and go nuts when I get near the tank with the pipette, which they did as usual. So not much change there, just your average run of the mill spots and some scratching, and flashing. So far I haven't seen any "panting" and I hope I don't. Someone post a warm happy Kyolic success story to cheer me up will ya.
Oh, I was thinking, my brother in law, who's ich I am now battling, has no spots on his fish as of yesterday when I stopped by. He uses kyolic to battle ich, but has lost a few fish, some to a possible petco velvet infection.
I was wondering if this brand of ich might not be tolerant of the Kyolic since he has used it for some time now.
Also, who has any plan B ideas should the garlic fail? I just can't see setting up a hospital tank for a few months while the ich dies off in my reef. Also, what's the best hosp. tank remedy should I crack up and go that route? Copper, marycin, Iodine dip, freshwater dip, etc.? Who has a tried and true? Anyone?

[john f]

Rowdy,
Send me an email and I'll give you something you can try.

John

[Bomber]

Robert, these two were offered at work today:

Cheung, P>J>, R. F. Nigrelli, and G.D.Ruggierri. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish. Brown. J. Fish Dis. 2:93-97

Colorni, A. 1987. Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control. Aquaculture 76(1-2):236-237

In the mean time, I ordered a Emperor UV this morning. I got really tired of borrowing from work. Jerel

[Terry B]

Rowdy,
I think the garlic needs more than a couple of days to begin to work. You really only need to keep your fish in quarantine for 30 days before you return them to the display. You can go 6 weeks as an added precaution. The only two tried-and-true methods of treating ich are copper or hyposalinity. I prefer hypo
Garlic treatments are getting some good reports from hobbyists, but I am still a bit skeptical. The originator of the idea told me that they use gel caps at 1500mg per fish per feeding. They feed the fish garlic soaked foods 1 to 3 times a day for 7 to 10 days. I have to think it is safer to feed garlic for at least three weeks. I don’t think that most people are using 1500mg per fish. It sounds high to me. If you will only use a reef safe treatment then your odds of success will be less. I think it is OK to try garlic, but it is a good idea to have a back up plan ready. This means biting the bullet and doing what it takes to treat the fish correctly. Maybe you should start a thread on how to catch fish in a reef. You will be surprised at the good ideas some people have. I am not recommending Kick Ich, but if you insist on trying a reef safe treatment some people have said it worked for them. From what I have seen, K.I. is about a 50-50 proposition. After all is said and done, I hope you will always quarantine your fish before placing them in the display.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Hi Jerel,
I don't want to change the subject of this thread to UV lights, but I was wondering if you have seen this.
Ultra-violet sterilizers and ozone have also been used to combat Cryptocaryon irritans. UV could be used to prevent the spread of parasites between systems, but it is not as effective at eliminating infections within an individual aquarium (Gratzek et al., 1983).
Terry B

[Aaron Shelley]

I am setting up a new reef and plan to add all the fish first so that I may create a hyposalinity environment for 30 to 45 days (if this is suficient?) before I bein adding SPS corals. What specific gravity is recommened? What is the minimum duration after the addition of the last fish? I'll also run UV during this process since I already have it.

Thanks!

[billsreef]

Aaron,

If you are setting this tank up with LR and LS you will need to use hyposalinity in a seperate Q tank, that is the best way to go about things any way. The fish need to be Q'd for 4-6 weeks.

[Aaron Shelley]

Makes sense! I forgot about the critters on my rock and in the sand.

Now about that specific gravity...:)

[Canadian]

Meh...

Until someone provides some 'real' scientific data that shows exactly how garlic supposedly aids in curing crypt I'm not gonna buy into the garlic hype. This hobby is wrought with anecdotal trends that are accepted on blind faith.

Even in human medecine, accepted 'cures' regularily become disputed and disproved...that's the beauty of the scientific method. At least there's an FDA to evaluate things for human consumption. Our hobby operates on trends, assumptions, anecdotes, and a few hobbyists who conduct a few 'tests.'

We see this all the time in this hobby- Homeopathic, natural, and herbal remedies that become a fad for humans make their way into our hobby...it's a natural progression. I mean look at Tea-tree oil. For crying out loud, it's in everything!!! I can get shampoo with melaleuca in it...what the **** good is that?! Probably none but it's popular because people want to believe in these cure-all remedies. Now you can get Melafix! What's in it? Melaleuca (Tea-tree oil) of course.

Hey, what if I told you that cayenne pepper makes a great cure for the common cold in addition to helping you loose weight? I could give you some BS 'scientific looking data' that supports my hypothesis, and in a year or so there would be cayenne pepper in every damned fish food on the market.

I'm not saying that garlic doesn't 'work' and that it's not a potential tool for hobbyists, but I'm not gonna buy into this until someone gives me some real evidence.

The best cure for crypt you ask? Abstinence! Oops...that's not for ich :D

[Terry B]

Hi Canadian,
I don't blame you for being skepical about garlic. I feel the same way. You are right about the way people jump on every new thing that comes about. You have been around the message boards long enought to know how often I have been slammed for speaking out against the use of a long list of so-called cures. Over the years I have lost count of how many things have been promoted as curing ich that were inconsistently effective or totally useless (remember the S word?). Most of these treatments fade away with a little time, but there will always be a few people that will claim one of them works.
I have to admit that garlic is the first one to really get my curiousity going. The others have mostly been a bad joke. I talked to the originator of the idea of using garlic for over an hour a couple of days ago. It didn't take me too long to discover that a lot of things being said about garlic and attributed to her are false rumors. She hasn't even thoughtly tested garlic as a cure. She believes that it works more as a preventative that a cure. As a matter of fact, she told me that she uses a combination of copper and hyposalinity for badly infected fish. Neither one of us knows if it will really cure ich. My understanding is that garlic is effective at killing some internal parasites (I have only tried this once, but the fish regained body weight and its normal coloration came back). Perhaps fish that have been liberated of internal worms are better able to fight off other pathogens (makes some sense to me).
There isn't even an agreement as to how garlic is supposed to work. I have an article about garlic ready that will go in for publication this week. I have much more to say about it there. We are all hoping for a reef safe cure for ich. All I am trying to do is gather as much info as I can and taking a closer look. I suspect garlic may useful for light infections and maybe prevention. This would make it a useful tool. IMO, the jury is still out and may be that way for a while.
Terry B

[Green Lantern]

I have one question regarding quarantine. When you put the fish in do you treat it under the assumption that it has ich or other parasitical disease or just for observation. I have quarantined all of my fish before going into my tank and have never had any disease but I've never done anything to them in quarantine other than feed and change the water.

Troy

[RobertK]

Thanks for the references, Jerel. Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to get to the library to track them down for a month or two.

I'm with Canadian on this garlic thing, I wouldn't give it to my fish until I saw something more definitive than anything that's been posted here. Mabye Terry's forthcoming article will have more scientific info, but then I guess he wouldn't have started this thread if there was enough data out there already.

I'd still like to know if there is scientific study that documents long-standing subclinical Cryptocaryon infection. Jerel, is that discussed in either of the references you provided? Terry, do you know?

[Bomber]

Hi Robert, I didn't take the time to read these (lazy and lack of time). They were both offered by Mike. I'll double check with him this morning.

Hey Terry, I'm hoping to drop the count down to a level that the fish can fight off by themselves. I keep saying "No more fish". We were out yesterday and came home with a candy bass. So you can imagine where he is now!Because if this, we get intermitent outbreaks. We have 350gal in circulation, the pumps are moving 1500-3000 gph at any given time. I talked to Heather at Emperor yesterday. She's sending us a HO model that's not out yet to test. It's 160 watts. I figure there won't be much left after this. We have Atlantic blue tangs that never show signs, but a Atlantic long nose that gets everything. Go figure! Anywho, take care Jerel

[JSM]

Terry,

Yes, I soak their foods in Zoe, Selco and Vita-Chem, I take tunes every day with one or the other. I put a sheet of nori on a clip everyday and in addition to that I feed a variety of frozen foods, all soaked in Vitamins overnight in the refigerator, and I feed spirulina and plankton gold flakes from BSD as well as Vibra-Gro and New Life Spectrum, which BTW, the tangs go nuts for. Obviously they don't get all these foods everyday but they have a well rounded diet. The faded color spots are not real big, maybe the size of a dime and they seem to fade in and out. Any ideas? I doubt I can catch him and I haven't tried garlic yet, but I'm going to. I feel so bad when he flashes, I'm just not sure what to do for him. And the fact that it happens every 5-6 months has really got me stumped.

Janna

[jimi]

Andrew,
Its funny you should mention pepper.From what I have heard Stop Parasite which is suppose to be a reef safe parasite cure all is pretty much tabasco/ hot wing sauce. I believed it after I looked and smelled it. Has anyone here tryed it?

[Bomber]

Robert, Mike suggested anything by Gratzek, J.B., I believe he wrote
1992 Fish Diseases and Water Chemistry
last time I checked you could find some of his stuff on the Waikiki Aquarium site. Jerel

[Rowdy]

After all is said and done, I hope you will always quarantine your fish before placing them in the display.
Terry B

Terry, I rarely buy fish and know enough to quarantine them before adding them to the reef tank. My ich came from a piece of LR with some xenia on it that my bro in law propped for me. He just brought it over in a cooler and I was just like...oh great, thanks man, plomp, right on in the reef. I knew he was having an ich problem for awhile and it never even crossed my mind. Dumb, I know, but it was just one of those things.
Also, I have little to no faith in Kyolic as a cure, but I'll give it a shot seeing as no one has reported any negative effects from doing so. I might have a problem setting up a quarantine at this point and it would definately have to go through a mini cycle at the least.
I think my fish would kill each other in the 10 gallon anyway.

I have a sump about to go online, I was wondering if I used new make-up water and put a UV sterilizer in-line from the tank to the sump, could I feed a Q tank from the sump and discharge back into the MT without infecting the sump with ich. It seems like this would give me time to let the ich die off in the MT and not cycle the hospital until I'm almost ready to treat the fish with copper or hypo. because it would be feeding from the MT until then.
Do you think a UV sterilizer is effective enough to kill enough ich along with say a mag 350 and micron in the sump?
I dunno, I'm sick with this mess though, over a damn piece of xenia..sheesh. I'm open to ideas. Thanks everyone interested.

Regards,

®owdy

[Bomber]

Roudy, I think I followed that. Am I right here? The main loop is, water goes from the main tank to the UV then to the sump. From the sump you're going to a hospital tank and them directly back to the main tank. If I'm right here you're reinfecting the main tank from the hospital tank. Somehow the UV has to be between the main tank and your hospital tank but without reinfecting your main tank. Dang if I can figure this one out. Jerel

[Outerbank]

Just my two cents on UV sterilizers--I am convinced that they don't work worth a darn in our reef systems for the treatment of parasites. Does anyone have any real data that supports the use an UV sterilizer to treat parasites?

Scott

[Bomber]

Sure:
Gratzek, J.B., J.P. Gilbert, A.L. Lohr, E.B. Shotts, and J. Brown. 1983 Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifilis in a closed system fish culture recirculation system. J. Fish. Dis. 6:145-153.
Scott, most people seem to buy way underpowered UV's and run their flow rates way too high for the units they have. Jerel

[RobertK]

Hey Jerel, I just found that same article while doing a literature search with the info you provided and was about to post it too! Here's the abstract:

Gratzek J B. Gilbert J P. Lohr A L. Shotts E B Jr. Brown J.,
UV light control of Ichthyophthirius multifiliis in a closed fish culture recirculation system, Journal of Fish Diseases 6(2). 1983. 145-154.

Abstract
A closed fish culture recirculation system consisting of 36 twenty-gallon aquaria in series with a rotating plate biofilter, a diatomaceous earth filter, and an UV light sterilizer was evaluated for the effectiveness of UV light in preventing spread of I. multifiliis. Water from the aquaria, the reservoir, and a valve 29 cm beyond the UV light source was analyzed bacteriologically to assess its effectiveness. The spread of I. multifilliis from one aquarium to another was controlled with 91,000 mu-W s/cm-2 of UV light. No significant differences in the bacterial counts from the water of the reservoir or the aquaria could be demonstrated when the UV light was either on or off, although a significant difference could be demonstrated between the sterilizer effluent and the reservoir and aquaria.

[Bomber]

Robert, most of this material was written with aquaculture in mind (what we do). However, I can't see why it won't apply to marine aquariums. Thanks for printing the abstract. Thanks again, Jerel

[Outerbank]

Robert,
Were they measuring bacteria or Ichthyophthirius? Also, I am a little confused--if there was no differences in the counts within the aquarium, but only the effluent of the UVS, then it sounds like it was totally ineffective in decreasing the aquarium levels of the "bacteria" that was measured. Correct me if I am wrong, but the way that it is worded sounds like the effluent was of a lower concentration but not the aquariums--big deal.

Also, is there any report on number of infected fish, after all, this is really what we are interested in, or even cured fish? I think that UV may kill this organism, but not effective enough to make any significant difference unless you have a killer UV on a tiny tank.

I am not by any means questioning you, but trying to see if the study is worth anything other than the fact that it killed/removed a few bacteria. If that is all, you could probably show the same thing with a powerful protein skimmer.

Scott

[RobertK]

Scott,
I don't have the whole article, just got the abstract off an online search. Maybe Jerel could answer your question better than me, he obviously knows more about it. The way I read it the key sentence in the abstract was "The spread of I. multifilliis from one aquarium to another was controlled with 91,000 mu-W s/cm-2 of UV light." To me this suggests the application you had in mind might work. I think the part about the bacteria was mostly reassurance that the UV is not going to whack out your biofilter.
Good luck,
Robert

[Bomber]

Scott, "was controlled" is "legalese" for the spread and eventual elimination. If you can read the entire paper, this is clear. There are other papers to back this up. Once your biofilter is established the UV has little effect on it. Again, the most important factors are size of the system, and desired flow rates. Which will decide the size of the UV (keeping in mind that some are constructed better than others).
In other words, don't put a 8w UV on a 100gal tank and expect anything.
Robert, Bingo! A good example is, one of our systems is +/- 2500gals. The loop is; overflows, sump, UV, chiller, tanks. 320w UV with a flow rate of +/- 2500gal/hr. From this you can judge to turnover rate of the system. This is a very busy system using a combination of 10 and 20gal tanks. It serves two primary purposes for us. A holding area and a hospital area. Jerel

[Edited by landescaper on 12-20-2000 at 09:55 AM]

[billsreef]

That study and personal experience are why I feel that UV's are ineffective for use in a single tank application but are a necessity for to control spread in multitank systems. When properly plumbed and sized all the water entering into your tanks has passed through the sterilizer, this is that nice sterile effluent water, creating a barrier between the tanks.

[Bomber]

Bill, I'm curious about how you were using your UV's. We have a 80w dual on a 300+gal with a variable flow rate of 600-900gph at home. I'm curious because you hear "worked great for me" - "didn't work for me" a lot. Now I'm wondering what others are doing differently. Thanks again, Jerel

[Terry B]

Dragon,
Yes, it does seem like an uphill battle, but people are learning and that's what a message board is all about. Hey, I learn things on the message boards to. I also learned that when you have an opinion on a subject there is always someone that will dislike you for it.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Greenlantern,
In the past I have just observed the fish for signs of disease. This is partly due to the fact that medications can be stressful or even suppress immune function. Now that we can use hyposalinity and garlic it is easy to make an argument for treating all incoming fish. Hyposalinity should clear the fish of ich (which is not always visible) and garlic seems to help with internal parasites (I do have a couple of sources to use as references). I think it is reasonable to keep your new acquasitions in hyposalinity for three+ weeks and add a little garlic to the food each day for a while.
Terry B

[Terry B]

Rowdy,
I agree with Billsreef and the others. If you have a powerful enough UV with the correct flow rate and ALL the water must pass thru the UV before reaching the next tank it could work. I woulndn't depend on it though unless you can be sure that it meets the aforementioned requirememts.

Here is a quote again:
Ultra-violet sterilizers and ozone have also been used to combat Cryptocaryon irritans. UV could be used to prevent the spread of parasites between systems, but it is not as effective at eliminating infections within an individual aquarium (Gratzek et al., 1983).
Terry B

[Shia]

Sorry but there are to many replies for me to read. I was wondering what the answer to the original question was, how often do you feed garlic to you fish?

[reef_ayuh]

I actually just read/skimmed this entire thread. My Hippo tang has a mild case for the second time in two months. Last time I lowered my S.G. to 1.020, raised temp to 82-84, and fed garlic daily for about a week or more. Ich cleared up. It's back now, about 6 weeks later. I really raised hell with the tank this weekend. Added two pieces of live rock - cycled - , did a water change, cleaned two powerheads, really scrubbed the glass, etc. The S. G. must have changed about 6 times trying to get the right level combined with the water change. I should have known better than to do all this at once!!:hmm2: this is what you were asking: As for the amount, i did read 1500 mg per fish at one point, but I don't remember the exact product. I used fresh garlic cloves, and crushed up about a half clove and mixed with flake food. Some small chunks in the tank seemed to be ok. I had found a link in a previous thread about ich that discussed garlic and it's benefits. I thought I bookmarked it, but can't find it now. If I recall, the general gist was that eastern cultures have used garlic in their tanks for decades. It also stated that the particular chemical that seems to have the most benefit is generated/released when the clove is damaged/crushed. That's why I went with crushing as opposed to extract or minced. What ever you do, don't use garlic salt or garlic flavored oils. Do you have ich now, or just studying?

RA

[naesco]

Reef ayuh is right except you did not feed long enough to stop the ich cycle.
The idea here is to get as much garlic extract (from the clove or bought but not garlic juice as it is diluted) into the fish. Feed dry food nori, flake and shrimp which have been soaking in some garlic extract for 20 minutes. Feed only garlic soaked food for at least thirty days. Feed 3-4 times a day.
The bits of the natural garlic are OK as long as they do not fall on your coral (irritant).
You might want to consider setting up a QT during this treatment period so that you can have the option of using hyposalinity or a chemical treatment like Greenex.
There is another lengthly thread re: Moorish Idol which is a good read..
Thank you

[reef_ayuh]

Naesco, I think you're right on. Gotta go the distance. (Cake is playing, what inspiration) What is strange, I fed a little garlic early this week after the 3-4 week hiatus, and then the ich re-appeared. I'm not trying to contradict myself here, I still think the garlic is an effective treatment - especially when combined with the other changes - SG, temp. I also have a cleaner I brought home with the Hippo. The Hippo actually looks better tonight. Generally speaking, he is still pretty skittish, although he will pull at Sea Select algae from my hand. I have also noticed the skimmer works MUCH better with the lower SG. I read an article in Fish magazine that backs this up. I have a ten gallon I could set up in an hour if things get way out of hand, although I don't like the thought of trying to catch the Hippo. Sounds like more stress he doesn't need right now. I would go hypo before copper. I made a vow to myself when I set up the tank to not use any chemicals. At risk of being flamed, I think it is impossible to eliminate ich from the tank. One reason being that ich is obviously existing on the reef, in "perfect" conditions. Also, I had a visible breakout only after stressing the fish. The first time was two days after bringing him home. I haven't added any fish since my first bout.

RA

[naesco]

TerriB who is an expert on ich said that ich in the tomont form can hang around the tank for 30 days so you have to treat continually during that period to have any chance at success.
I use garlic extract because it is easy to use but have used squished garlic cloves in a pinch. The fish love the garlic pieces too. If you buy the garlic extract make sure you don't buy garlic juice because it is diluted.

[reef_ayuh]

Huh, ich surviving without a host fish. Imagine that.....

I actually thought he or someone else on that side said 72 days. Either way, reducing stress is the key.
I have to admit I might try the extract if I can get to the health food store when they are open. Much easier to deal with.

Thanks for the replies, RA

[TerryB]

Ich does not survive without a host it dies. Generally this may only take a couple of weeks but 30 days is the established waiting period. Although tomomts have been shown to survive as long as 72 days that does not mean they were viable or still had the ability to infect a fish or even hatch after such an extended period.
The problem with garlic is that it often does not clear the infection. Many times it will help relieve the symptoms for a time as the infections merely becomes subclinical. All it takes is some time or for something minor to happen and suddenly you can have a full blown infection again. I think this is what you are experiencing. Over all I think garlic works about 50% of the time and even then the infection often comes back. I certainly don't see anything wrong with soaking the foods in garlic for a period of time, but that doesn't mean you have actually cleared the infection or solved the problem.
Yes, I do suggest that people feed the fish garlic on a regular basis for at least a month when they are using it to combat ich. Since the garlic often does not really cure the infection it is a good idea to go 6 weeks and then still feed them garlic soaked foods once a week after that until you no longer see any white spots (not even occasionally). I would say that sometimes garlic seems to help, sometimes it just postones the inevitable (using a proven cure) and sometimes it doesn't seem to help at all. You are probably having the same experience as the guy that has the Moorish Idol. Right now he is playing a balancing act. The ich is not gone, but it is not totally out of control either. It may all come apart on him two months from now. There are lots of treatments for ich that work inconsistently including garlic, but only two that are dependable treatments: copper or hyposalinity.
Terry B

[reef_ayuh]

TerryB,

Thanks for the reply. I know you are very passionate about this subject, and I appreciate your input. One question I have is, when you are using a Qtank for your new fish, do you setup for conditions that eliminate ich? In other words - Do you only do hypo/copper when there's a problem, or for every new fish? I am still reading about this subject, and I guess I know deep down what I may have to do to fully eliminate the problem.

Happy Reefing, RA

[Shia]

At one point I put my foxface in my Q. tank, and he looked more stressed out in there than in the main setup. He refused to eat and I felt bad for the poor little guy so I put him back in the main setup and he completely fine. Started eating and everything. Now in a situation like this how can I Q. my foxface without putting excess stress on him and basically helping the parasite? My main setup is 180 gallon, my Q. tank is 10 gallons.

[gonzach]

I have read through this entire thread and many others like it and I find it crazy that no-one has even suggested neon gobies. I have been very successful in eliminating parasites... copper works fine for me, (in low dosages) FO tank but much much more important, (in a reef setup with fish) is that you aclimate at least 1 good pair of neon gobie fish. 1 gold , 1 blue preferably together if possible, they do tend to fight if same exact color & genera (*unless you have a very large tank). Forget the cleaner shrimp for cleaning since they are not that effective, pretty slow in cleaning & little effect at all I have found in past, also cant survive copper if FO setup, the neon gobies are 'extremely' diligent in there duties and have time and time again cleaned all of my fish (naso, hippo, powder blue tangs) of parasites without copper (even when little ich present) have 2 in my reef tank. Even with a major outbreak in my FO tanks, I never had to use too much coppper at any time... less than .010 and then removed 1 week later with polyfilter pads and copper sponge . The bottom line is... add some neon gobies ASAP! to your reef and FO only tanks & you will find that they truly are the best 'proactive method' in preventing major ich outbreaks. I have been amazed at what these little guys can accomplish in days, even in the worst conditions. I went on vacation and my main pump stopped working on my 180 gallon FO tank while I was gone. I get home & find no water circulation for 5 days straight! Amazing the fish are all still alive, The water is yellow, yuch! tons of algae buildup, I replace the pump and begin circulating the water. This is Day 7 and the fish are covered with ich! I do a few small water changes add just a little copper each day , around 25 drops each day.. not to bother the fish too much, but after 2 days of treatment the ich was completely gone most credit to the neon gobies in removing most all new parasites before they could become cysts.. and very fast in doing so! I have not seen any ich again and only had to treat for 3 days! This is the second time I have been successful in saving all of 15 fish in a major outbreak. If a reef & fish only setup you should try adding the neon gobies as soon as possible for preventative measures. Hope this helps.

[vlamingi3]

where can you get kyolic garlic for fish

[Shia]

GNC

[Addicted Reefer]

To all:

A little late to the forum but i have some questions i think you can help with. I am going to give some back round. I have never had ich in the tank until 2 days ago. It has been running for over a year. I was putting in a refugium and accidently left the heater unplugged stupid me. When i came home the water was at 70 degrees. I have since added another heater to late but i learned from my mistake. Now my flame hawk has ich. I only have two other fish in the aquarium. The marron clown shows no signs and is happy as ever, can not tell with my convict goby sometimes it looks like it has spots but he is digging in the substrate constanly they tend to move so i am not sure if its just stuff from the bed. I added green x over the two days. My salinity is at 1.026 which is high but normal for the ocean right. So my questions are

1. Does Green x work it contains malichite green but i saw that mentioned before as iffy. Probably a matter of opinion but i think i am going to discontinue its use it did work for me before though or it could have just fixed its self. If its bullsh@t in your opinions should i do a water change and then try the garlic. If i use garlic should i soak it in vitamins as well.

2. The flame has 3 spots so probably a light infection . I was thinking about buying a cleaner shrimp or two and trying the garlic but i will take it out if everyone thinks its better. The fish has been in several different reefs for years and this would probably really stress him to put him in a 15 gallon with no structure.

3. A hospital should have no substrate i have cc but will remove its a very thin layer on bottom 1/4 inch , no rock and no carbon unless not using copper. Can i put in base rock probably a dumb question or should i use pvc. Should i use water from the tank it came from to copper or is that counter productive. I know the hospital has no biological filtration its just a whisper so do i need to worry about stressing the fish further by throwing it in there. Does salinity matter for the copper i know unless it is really low it won't stop it on its own.

Sorry for the 20 questions but i have killed enough fish in my reef career and i don't want to lose another.

[gonzach]

yes

[Addicted Reefer]

Thanks man i am trying the vitamins with garlic when i get home from work. About a week of dosing is good a couple times a day? Small amounts i assume.

[gonzach]

yes

[Addicted Reefer]

gonzach,

I only have a flame hawk no flame angel on day i will. My tank dropped to 70 degrees i took out my wet dry for a refugium and added a new peice of rock i was begging for a case of ich. I am going to check the water tonight when i get home i am not sure were they are at i tested right before i took the wet/dry and they were no nitrite/nitrate/ or amonia. I also added red slime remover a week before i don't know what i was thinking doing all the changes the week after. I really messed up thats why i feel so bad about it. He has been really healthy up till this point and still eats like a champ. I pray he comes threw it okay.

[gonzach]

yes

[websiteworld.com]

I am 100 percent sure that ick is always present in an aquarium. My dad told this to people over and over again. In freshwater aquariums sudden or drastic water temperature changes will cause fish to get ick especially Swordfish, Mollies, etc.

So if anyone is in doubt about this point, doubt no more.

[TerryB]

websiteworld.com,
Wow, this is an old thread. It is still one of the best threads that have been on this message board. I believe it started back in 2000 and nobody has posted on it for over a year now.
As to ich always being present, such a statement is contrary to scientific fact. You may be interested in reading a series of articles on saltwater ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) beginning in the November 2003 issue of Advanced Aquarist Online magazine. www.advancedaquarist.com
Happy reading,
Terry B

[ATJ]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
I am 100 percent sure that ick is always present in an aquarium. My dad told this to people over and over again. In freshwater aquariums sudden or drastic water temperature changes will cause fish to get ick especially Swordfish, Mollies, etc.

So if anyone is in doubt about this point, doubt no more.
Whether freshwater "Ich" is always present in freshwater aquariums is irrelevent to this forum. The is Fish Disease Treatment within Marine Fish Forums so we are dealing with Marine "Ich". Marine "Ich" is totally unrelated to Freshwater "Ich" - they just look similar.

As Terry points out, the scientific evidence (and there is loads of it) demonstrates that "Ich" is not always present in our tanks - see: Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria? (http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html#always) My own experiences also support this and my 9 tanks are free from "Ich".

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by ATJ
As Terry points out, the scientific evidence (and there is loads of it) demonstrates that "Ich" is not always present

Obviously you've forgotten that less than 3 generations ago, people were still using outhouses. We don't know as much as people would like to think in this information age. Also, scientific evidence states the earth is millions of years old, however many people can give evidence that shows otherwise.

[TerryB]

websiteworld.com,
The diffference here is that all the sceintific evidence is contrary to your idea and you can't give a single bit of sceintific support for it. Give us some references to the scientific journals that will support your contention! We know there isn't any.
Terry B

[websiteworld.com]

Scientific evidence also states the world is millions of years old, however many disagree.

[OrionN]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
Scientific evidence also states the world is millions of years old, however many disagree.
Just because some fanatic disagree does not mean that it is not true. What was the base for the disagreement. Just because the good book said that the Earth, and the universe only a few thousand year old does not count.

Regardless, Marine ich life cycle is fully understood. They can be eliminated from a system if we leave it fishless for a duration. New fish can be treat to eliminate Ich infection, even sub-clinical. Combination of the two process and you will have a system that is Ich free. They will not be spontaneously arise from a system that they were eliminated from, unless the reef keeper add them into the system.

[ATJ]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
Obviously you've forgotten that less than 3 generations ago, people were still using outhouses. We don't know as much as people would like to think in this information age. Also, scientific evidence states the earth is millions of years old, however many people can give evidence that shows otherwise.
Again... we are talking about marine "Ich", not outhouses nor the age of the earth. Why can't you stay on the topic?

[websiteworld.com]

Originally posted by ATJ
Again... we are talking about marine "Ich", not outhouses nor the age of the earth. Why can't you stay on the topic?


We weren't talking about science either, were we? My comment was relevant, just because it makes logical sense to discredit statements doesn't mean it should be dismissed.

You seem like a smart guy, surely you don't believe everything doctors and scientists tell you?

[ATJ]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
You seem like a smart guy, surely you don't believe everything doctors and scientists tell you?
No, I don't believe everything. I review the material and methods that were used, the results that were achieved and the discussion of the results. Based on that, I decide whether I should believe it. Whether you believe it or not, I have full confidence in the information that has been collected on the life cycle of "Ich".

I don't understand why you expect us to believe something just because your "dad told this to people over and over again". You claim you are "100 percent sure that ick is always present in an aquarium" and "So if anyone is in doubt about this point, doubt no more" and yet you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your position.

That fact that science doesn't have the answer to every possible question is totally irrelevant and is nothing more than a red herring to make up for your lack of a supporting argument. Provide your supporting evidence or don't bother discussing.

[OrionN]

Originally posted by websiteworld.com
Scientific evidence also states the world is millions of years old, however many disagree.
Just to find out about you and some of your though so that we can discuss thing intelligently, or drop this topic altogether.
How old do you think the Earth is and why?

Minh

[billsreef]

Considering an outhouse still works in this day and age, I don't see what that has to do with the ability to run a tank free from ich. BTW freshwater ich is just as curable and easy to eliminate as is SW ich, actually it's easy to beat as it's life cycle is shorter ;)

[beamer]

Hi everyone!

This is an old thread but I'm glad I found it.

I really don't care about out houses or even care about how old the earth is but I would like to know if my Regal Tang has ich or if it is someting else.

I've only been in this hobby for 5 mos. I bought and existing tank (1.5 yrs old) and had it moved about 130 miles. Everyone made the move just fine and is doing great.

However, a few weeks ago I bought a lawnmower blenny. I haven't seen him for about a week so I assume he is dead.
No, I did not QT and I am still kicking myself because I did have a little 10 gl set up that I could have used. The LFS stock is always very healthy so I wasn't too concerned plus he QT them for a week or so before he sells them. From reading the posts now I know this is not near long enough. I will never not QT again.

I noticed the spots about 2 weeks ago and didn't think anything of it . There were so few and they were so tiny. THe number of spots has grown a little, they have not gotten any larger. In the morning when the lights first come on I only see a few spots and they are pretty vague. It seems that the longer the lights are on the more obvious the spots are. They are still very very tiny regular shaped white spots.

This is my inventory:
120 gl reef,fish,coral; 160 lbs of LR, Aqua C EV 180 skimmer,
PC lighting. 14 gl sump with a DIY 5 gl fuge with cheato, (A new 44 gl sump/fuge to be installed!!).
Regal Tang, Yellow Tang, Foxface, 4 Lyre tail Anthias, 3 Blue-Green Chromis, 2x Zebra Gobbies, 2 x 6 Lined Wrasses, Clarki Clown, Coral Beauty, Spotted Hawk Fish, Two-Spotted Hogfish, Christmas Wrasse, Sandsifting starfish, 2x Open Brains, Crocea Clam. And lots of LPS.

I know this is a lot of live stock but this came with the tank and it had been doing just fine. Never any ich and water parmaters great.

My nitrates and phosphates are high from moving and using the old sand bed. In a few weeks I'm hoping I will be able to get some help to break down the tank to remove the old sandbed and to replace with new. At this time I do weekly water changes of around 30-35 gls because of the high nitrates and phosphates. I think I will start doing more frequent, and smaller water changes.

If I am still having problems at the time I break down the tank I will probably go ahead and QT all of the fish.

Anyway, back to my original question, is this ich or what?
Here are a few pics of my Regal Tang (Of course her name is Dori). She acts fine and eats well although she doesn't like the taste of the garlic that I've been adding. I've been reading all of the links and threads but its still a bit confusing. So many different opinions.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/periotherapist2001/album?.dir=/5b20&urlhint=actn,ren%3as,1%3af,0



Thanks! Cindy