question for Mr Sekha

[aznepydna]

Mr Sekha,

How much air should I expect to see in the titration syringe for the calcium and alkalinity test kits by Sailifert? The instructions say some air is normal, but how much?

Thank you.

Andy Penza

[Habib]

Andy,

I just noticed that your screen name aznepynda is your full name but then in opposite order

The amount of air is a typically 0.22 ml.

The tip should be mounted firmly on the syringe. When drawing in lquid the tip should always be immersed in the liquid.

The amount of air which you see now is the amount between the end of the tip and the bottom of the piston.

This does not influence the measurement because the air pocket remains in place and when the syring is filled to the 1.00 ml mark there will be exactly 1.00 ml titrant.

The tip allows you to make a measurement with a higher resolution because the drop size (volume of liquid) is very small.

If I am right then you also have the Hach calcium test.

I would not be surprised if the Hach would give (if sample is undiluted) an approx. 10-15% higher reading then the Salifert.

With a 1:1 diluted sample I would not be surprised if the Hach gives an approx. 5-7% higher reading then the Salifert.

[aznepydna]

Habib,

You are correct in both statements. My screen name is my name backwords and on my last test the Sailifert kit read 430 and the Hach gave me a 464.

I assume the Sailifert test is more accurate because it uses the titration syringe vs. counting drops for the Hach.

I like to use the Sailifert test better and it costs alot less too. The only thing I would like is for the Sailifert to have a plastic case like the Hach instead of just the cardboard box.

Andy

[aznepydna]

Habib,

Your company name is Salifert not Sailifert. Sorry for the mis-spell.

Andy

[Habib]

Andy,
Sorry for the mis-spell
If you would count my misch-spals........

Your company name is Salifert not Sailifert

SALIna and FERTile.

I assume the Sailifert test is more accurate because it uses the titration syringe vs. counting drops for the Hach

This makes the Salifert more precise.

If a calcium test is calibrated with freshwater (which I expected from Hach without ever having used their kit) then it will give 10-15% higher value with seawater. Your test results seem to confirm this.

The Salifert is calibrated with seawater. It is therefore also more accurate then the Hach when used on marine water.

I like to use the Sailifert test better and it costs alot less too.

Thanks!

The only thing I would like is for the Sailifert to have a plastic case

It is not unlikely that in the near future either empty plastic casing with foam inserts or perhaps in addition to that also de-luxe versions will be available.

The cardboard version will be available to keep the price as low as possible.

FWIW. We recently changed the labelling (better quality) for the reagents and are working on far more user friendly instructions.

Andy, how was the color change for the Hach and Salifert?

Thanks again.

[aznepydna]

Habib,

The color change is the same pink to blue.

The Salifert test vial is a much better design IMO. It is much easier to swirl than the square one that comes with the Hach.

The Hach kit measures calcium carbonate so the end result must be multiplied by.4. This is another inconvenience. I like the table supplied with the Salifert.

I am very happy with the Salifert test kits (calcium and alkalinity) and will continue to use them. The Hach will just collect dust.

Andy

[mgk65]

Hi Guys!

For everyone that wants plastic boxes for their Salifert kits, I went to Wal-Mart (or any office store) and purchased some plastic boxes for 3x5" index cards. Works perfect for each kit.

They were less than $1 each. I have six boxes for my Salifert kits.

Next time I get some foam from somewhere, I may cut some up for the boxes, but it is not really needed.

Habib, thanks for keeping the product prices low and the tests accurate.

mgk

p.s. Any more info on the additives?

I measured my Mg the other day and it was 1200. No too bad, but I need to boost it with something and the Seachem Mg Additive is weak - 5 ppm per teaspoon per 20 gallons!

Thanks!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

SALIna and FERTile.

Huh?

[Experimenter]

While we are talking about the Salifert test kits, I have a few questions.

1. In the KH kit, the KH-Ind solution seems to drop very quickly. Other dropers I've used give you much more control of the drops. With the KH-Ind, as soon as you turn it over, drops start dropping out! I think this may be common as it has been the case with each of 3 kits I've used.

2. I'm never really sure about the color change. For instance, in the KH test, as I add drops to the vial the color first stays blue for every drop, then it will briefly turn pink during the swirling after a drop and then change back to blue. Finally, it appears to be somewhere in between blue and pink for a few drops, and then it turns totally pink. When should I determine that the color has changed? This is also a problem with the CA kit. In that kit, the instructions say to look for a clear blue. Well, I have to admit that it turns somewhat blue first, then it continues to get clearer and lighter blue. I've use the entire 1ml to see if it continues to "blue" after I think it has changed - and it sort of does.

3. In some kits (most notably the NO3 kit), the crsytal-like reagent (for instance, NO3-3) seems to become clumpy and hard. I assume that it is no longer good at that point. However, I have bought more than one kit where this was the case right out of the box. I really don't think the little plastic containers are airtight.

Habib, if you can provide some help here, it would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
John

[Habib]

Randy,

Perhaps a language barrier but does Huh mean something like "what are you saying" or "what do you mean"

If that is meant then Salifert is composed of parts of Saline or Salina (=contains salt) and Fertile.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Oh, I get it. I thought Salina might be your wife's name....

Yes, "Huh?" is like "What?"

[Habib]

Randy,
Oh, I get it. I thought Salina might be your wife's name....

[Habib]

John,
With the KH-Ind, as soon as you turn it over, drops start dropping out!

What I see here is that when the dropper is turned the first drop comes out and keeps hanging on the dropper. For the second drop some pressure has to be excereted. I personally have never had the problem of a drop falling on the ground or so.

I always have the test tube in one hand and the dropper very close by (next to the test tube) with the other hand. I invert the dropper and at the same time align it above the test tube.

I hope this helps.

When should I determine that the color has changed?

With the alkalinity test the resolution is something like 0.1 meq/L (=0.28 dKH) so it will take several drops (something like 6 drops)untill the color changes to pink after you have noticed the first significant color change.

The reverting of the color has to do with the evenly mixing and a short time required for the reaction taking place.

The alkalinity reading should be taken when the sample stays pink.

This is also a problem with the CA kit. In that kit, the instructions say to look for a clear blue. Well, I have to admit that it turns somewhat blue first, then it continues to get clearer and lighter blue.

There can be several reasons for it.
- There is something with the Ca-3 reagent
- Perception of colors in general
- type of light used
- something in you water which causes a drifting in the color
- .............

Couple of things we could do.
- Please give batch numbers of the calcium reagents (4 digits on right hand side of labels)

- Normally the color chage will go from red/pink to purple to blue. Once color starts to change, the blue should be there within 60 ppm or so. Purple is actually blue with a strong pink/red tinge in it. The blue is without a clear pink/red tinge. This is the point to stop.
Further addition can make the blue a bit brighter or evn decrease the intensity because of dilution with the reagent.

- You could also run the test by using not 1 level scoop Ca-2 reagent but 1/2 or even 1/3 scoop.
The colors will be less strong but the change in color will be clearer. It is very likely that now you even will not notice the intermediate purple color.

- If you use a light source with a relatively high portion of red in it then this could possibly cause some difficulties.

- If I can come up with some other things to help you further I will let you know.
Any feed back if it has helped or not from your side is highly appreciated.

(for instance, NO3-3) seems to become clumpy and hard

We had in the past screw caps but now use push on lids which are better.

When a powder has become clumpy then hitting a few times the side of the container against a table corner and shaking a bit helps to loosen it up.

If the powder has become clumpy then this does not mean it has gone bad.

The NO3-3 powder (but also the NO2) powder can develop a greenish or blueish tinge. The test will still function normal.

When these powders have become black then they have gone bad and should be (will be) replaced.

In the new instructions which are being prepared such things are mentioned.

I hope I have not missed any thing and have answered your questions.

Thanks for your feedback

[Experimenter]

Habib,

Thank you so much for the reply. You have answered all the questions I've had. You couldn't have been clearer. I now have a lot more confidence using your kits.

Thanks again,
John

[Habib]

mgk65:

I measured my Mg the other day and it was 1200. No too bad, but I need to boost it with something and the Seachem Mg Additive is weak - 5 ppm per teaspoon per 20 gallons!

I don't know their magnesium supplement. If it is a powder then based on above info I guess it is Epsom salt.

Epsom salt is MgSO4.7H20. This formula says that there is approx. just 10% magnesium in that salt.

There are some other ways to have 20% magnesium in a powder but also far more expensive.

So from your observations I think that the Seachem Magnesium is concentrated.

You will just need a lot of it (regardless which brand).

Andy Hipkiss has a nice calculator on his website to calculate how much you would need if you are 100% sure what substance(s) you are adding.

Thanks to Andy's website I also learned that LFS means local fish store and not Live Fish Store as I thought it would mean

[tcottle]

Originally posted by aznepydna
Mr Sekha,

How much air should I expect to see in the titration syringe for the calcium and alkalinity test kits by Sailifert? The instructions say some air is normal, but how much?

Thank you.

Andy Penza

Habib,

I appreciate the time you have spent answering what must seem to be endless questions. I have found enjoyment and enlightenment in your responses.

Enough sucking up Now to the questions:

1. The syringe that is used to meter the tank water also has a small air bubble. It OK for the same reasons as in the titration syringe or should I try to purge the bubble?

2. Mechanics. When using a syringe do I measure at the tip of the plunger (my bet), the middle of the seal or the end (far side) of the plunger?

3. Am I overthinking the problem?

Thanks 10^6
Todd

[Habib]

Todd,

Enough sucking up Now to the questions

Well let's see if that has been enough for 3 questions!!!!!!!!!

I have found enjoyment

Are you sure?

1. The syringe that is used to meter the tank water also has a small air bubble. It OK for the same reasons as in the titration syringe or should I try to purge the bubble?

Same reason, do not purge.

2. Mechanics. When using a syringe do I measure at the tip of the plunger (my bet), .........

Can we bet first?

The syringe used for metering water sample has a plunger with a flat end. The bottom of this flat piece should be at the required syringe mark.

The syringe used to add the titrant has a small o-ring.

When syringe is filled with titrant the bottom of the o-ring should be at the 1.00 ml mark.

When titration is completed the reading is taken at this same bottom of the o-ring.
Since, for this last mentioned, the syringe is turned with the tip facing upward, the reading is tken from what is now visually the top of the black o-ring.

3. Am I overthinking the problem?

Well, in principle it does not matter where you take the reading as long as it is always done at the same reference point when filling to the 1.00 ml mark and when reading after the titration was completed.

There have been some good reasons to take the reference points as here above and in the instructions. So, yes you probably are ovethinking...