Elysia Diomedia (lettuce Nudibrach) eggs from MWP

jnowell · #1 05/15/2006, 11:20 AM

Matt (MWP) was nice enough to send me a strand of Lettuce nudibranch eggs to work with. I found very little information on rearing them, other than fairly common reports of juveniles just "showing up" in tanks with an adult pair.

I've founf through working with Berghias that nudis aren't terribly difficult to raise, and I've always like the Lettuces. Not to mention that I've never owned a tank that didn't have at least some bryopsis in it, so I had to give these guys a try...thanks Matt!

I had a chance to get some broodstock a while back, so I started a small "bryopsis farm" in a 5g critter keeper. I put a few small rocks in, pulled some bryopsis off of a power head, and put it on the lighting with my brine shrimp hatchery. I added F/2 nutrients (micro algae grow from FAF) and just basically topped of with RO and did small water changes with seasoned water from my reef. The hair algae went crazy in there, I had one mini-jet 606 for flow, and had to constantly clean the nozzle to keep it clear.

I got the egg strand Saturday, and a few had already hatched in the bag during transit. I hung a breeder net onto my reef, and put the best rock from the hair algae farm in the net. Then I just poured the water, egg strand, and hatchlings right on top of it all. What better place for a strand of lettuce nudi. eggs than gently resting on a huge mass of hair algae?

The rest of the eggs appear to have hatched, and I can occasionally spot one crawling slowly over the bryopsis. They are darn near microscopic right after hatching, but they do appear to be growing, and getting a greenish tint to them. With any luck they'll do their thing with little input from me and become solar powered sea slugs soon

Here's some pics:

The Egg strand as it was recieved, sitting atop a nice juicy clump of hair algae.

The hatch taking place, the little white dots are the babies, who immediately crawled onto the hair algae and hopefully began eating. I managed to see one or two this morning, and they appear to be picking up a green tint, and look a bit larger perhaps.

And for Matt, here are your frags all mounted up and ready to go to the eco-sensitive tank, thanks!

mwp · #2 05/15/2006, 11:36 AM

Actually, these are eggs of the Pacific Lettuce Nudibranch - Elysia diomedia.

They keep the bryopsis in check in my tanks. They're still making eggs if anyone else wants to give them a shot.; pictures of the parents in the thread too... http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=838301

MP

jnowell · #3 05/15/2006, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the clarification, I thought your broodstock looked better than most crispatas I'd seen. That must explain the better coloration...and probably means I need to double check for info on rearing them...elusive as it is

Thanks again,

Jason

mwp · #4 05/15/2006, 11:55 AM

Jason, if you can see crawly larvae you're already doing better than I've done...good luck especially since the one parent is definitely on the "last legs" (hey, they only live a year or so naturally.....we're running out of 'chances' to get a next generation started).

MP

jnowell · #5 05/15/2006, 02:08 PM

Well Matt, I got a response from a guy in Australia that I emailed from the sea-slug forum, and he is quite certain that they are planktonic for about 12-16 hours after hatching, and once they have absorbed enough nannochloropsis occulata they settle and begin to crawl in search of three types of algaes, Bryopsis, Padina, and perhaps the red alga Spyridia. Luckily, I had added a heavy dose of nanno while acclimating the egg strand. My guess is that with the live nanno floating around, they made it through the veliger stage and settled out. The mesh on my breeding trap is very small so hopefully most of them stayed in it.

I went home at lunch and added padina (I think, looking for pics for a positive ID), and every other type of macro I have on hand, which includes "turtle grass" (like bryopsis but with courses hairs and not so fuzzy, no idea on the scientific name) red and green grape caulerpa, red kelp, feather caulerpa, razor caulerpa (green and brown) and caulerpa prolifera. I also scraped the green algae off the walls of my seahorse tank and added a clump of it, no idea what species it is, but it has very small cells, so maybe they'll like it.

You should scrape another egg ribbon, bag it, and let it hatch out in some phyto to get them to settle, and then maybe isolate them with your strains of macros. I'm going to try to identify which one or ones they are feeding on. Time will tell.

Jason

mwp · #6 05/15/2006, 02:34 PM

Jason, that's interesting news that they'll feed on Nanno...I have tons of NANNO. I may give it another shot and see what I can get brewing..I have a few open spaces for small culturing vessels...maybe a 2 liter filled with nanno and pieces of every macro I have may do the trick?

Interesting info...

Matt

jnowell · #7 05/15/2006, 04:13 PM

I can't believe I'm getting paid for this right now, but after a little more research, I've also found that tetraselmis and isochrosis may also be good choices for planktonic algal feeds for the larvae. If you have either of those, try them too! I have some Iso1800 from Reed Mariculture, so I'll add some of that just in case it might help them, i'm fresh out of tetraselmis right now.

The brown algae that I added is most definitely NOT padina, never seend anything quite like it. It grew on some live rock in the seahorse tank and I have yet to identify it.

I hope I'm successful with a least a few of these, it'd be a shame to do all of this research and get it figured out right before we run out of viable eggs

It seems most people have just gotten lucky and had some make it with no specific care given, and mostly on crispata. That sort of luck never shows up at my house!

Anyone else with info or links, I'm listening.

Jason

mwp · #8 05/15/2006, 05:10 PM

LOL, Jason I'm totally in synch with you - I actually have T-Iso, Tetraselmis, Nannochloropsis AND NannoCHLORIS

I'll give them a soup...the amphipod culture is a waste of my time right now...so out they go and in with the Diomedias I guess.

MP

jnowell · #9 05/17/2006, 08:07 AM

Not sure how many viable eggs I got in that strand, Paul, care to take a guess how many i should have based on the pic of the eggs? So far I've seen maybe 20 floating on top of the water, not sure if they are dead or not, so I let them be. I've probably seen 15-20 crawling around on the rock and bryopsis too, there may be many more down there, but they are so tiny that unless you actually observe them moving, they could be anything. If everything that resembles a tiny grain of rice is a viable Elysia, I may have hundreds...time will tell.

I just wish they'd get big enough to photograph, I can barely see them under a 10x loupe right now. The loupe is the only reason I think I'm being successful, the look a lot like the baby berghias I've seen.

Jason

FuEl · #10 05/17/2006, 08:22 AM

Hmm..their larval cycle sounds like that for sea cucumbers. Only for sea cucumbers once they settle out they begin eating diatoms. Maybe diatoms are worth a shot?

mwp · #11 05/17/2006, 10:02 AM

Jason, I'm waiting with much anticipation - good luck!

Matt

jnowell · #12 05/18/2006, 08:54 AM

Matt, I'm certain now that we have some settled out. I'll try to get some video tonight through the loupe like I did with my seahorse fry.

Still hard to guess at a number, but there are definitely little slug-like creatures crawling around and getting bigger by the day. I sure hope we can save a few and disperse them more, it'd be neat to see these guys become available regularly. The rearing process seems quite simple too, so I'm thinking it will be possible.

mwp · #13 06/05/2006, 04:10 PM

So Jason, how are things going 2 weeks+ since hatching?

Matt

Paul B · #14 06/06/2006, 04:06 AM

The eggs Matt sent me hatched yesterday, I can see them happily eating breakfast. I will release them into the main reef soon.
Paul

jnowell · #15 06/06/2006, 08:38 AM

Matt, All is well. They aren't growing as fast as I'd like, but there are quite a few in there. They have almost cleaned the bryopsis rock I added for them, have a few more in waiting. They seem to like Caulerpa Prolifera also, haven't seen them on any of the other macrosalgae though.

Glad to hear yours are kicking too Paul. Mine are still in the net breeder because my tank is not slug safe yet. I bought all of the sponge covers for the pumps, so I just need to do the work now

Jason

mwp · #16 06/06/2006, 10:02 AM

SWEET Jason, SWEET!

Matt

mwp · #17 06/06/2006, 01:15 PM

OK, so wait a second...sorry to post this to both threads but I'm not sure which ones Jason and Paul are watching:

Are you guys just hatching these in breeder nets with some bryopsis? The veligers are making it in there? Heck, I have tons of spare breeder nets, tons of bryopsis and tons of caulpera prolifera...is that all I really need to do? Don't need to hatch them seperately???

MP

jnowell · #18 06/06/2006, 02:01 PM

That's all I did Matt. I did add nanno twice a day for the first three days, but yeah, I just put a rock covered in bryopsis into a breeder net and added the egg strand. Short of a few extra phyto feedings directly into the breeder net I didn't do anything special.

I can see a definite 20-30 that change positions on the bryopsis and prolifera, and a possible 40-50 more that are on the mesh...so many I really can't be sure if they are moving around or not. The bryopsis is almost gone though, so they are eating it for sure, and I occasionally see a few on the prolifera, I never saw any on the feather or grape caulerpa.

Give it a go, it's been very easy on my end. The hardest part is seeing the little suckers and verifying that they are indeed moving.

Jason

mwp · #19 06/06/2006, 02:06 PM

Well, the two egg ribbons that just popped up are both getting shipped out, but I have TONS of breeder nets around...I'm surprised the kept the larvae IN THEM though...aren't the veligers REALLY SMALL?

MP

jnowell · #20 06/06/2006, 02:18 PM

Yeah, the veligers are TINY, I wasn't even sure of what I was seeing through the 10x loupe. There was "something" floating/swimming around, but I'd say slightly smaller than a ciliate!

I put the breeder net in the front corner of the reef where nothing was aimed directly at it (almost no flow). I didn't touch anything for the first 5-6 days. A slight film had developed on top of the breeder net, so I raised and lowed it a few times to refresh the water on day 6. Around day 10 (from egg arrival, not sure of the hatch date) was the first time I actually found one visually (settled) and watched it move across the bryopsis. I caught a glimpse of him under the loupe and realized I had achieved something.

Since discovering what they look like, over the last 5-6 days I've come to realize that we probably have at least 30, and as many as 50 or more. Time will tell, but I hope these guys have a growth spurt before long

I'm guessing in another month, i could ship you back a few babies / juvies. I'm going to try really hard to get some close-ups tonight and will post tomorrow if I'm successful.

Thanks for the eggs too! This has been an interesting endeavor.

Jason

mwp · #21 06/06/2006, 02:29 PM

Jason, what color are they? I wouldn't consider it a success until they get to 1/4" or so, that's about the size things start being saleable

I will be SOOOO stoked if you get them to grow up! Getting them to BREED was easy - just keep them happy and make sure you have bryopsis in the tank. The one of my pair continues to get smaller and smaller, turning lighter and lighter, so it's only a matter of time. But hey, you only need TWO as they're simultaneous hermaphrodites...and with that short 1 year lifespan we need all the breeding success we can get - how freakin' cool!

You're absolutely sure they're not flatworms right?

Matt

Paul B · #22 06/06/2006, 03:17 PM

Matt, they may live longer than a year. My elisia crispata all lived about 18 months.

jnowell · #23 06/06/2006, 04:54 PM

Matt, been down the flatworm route, these are NOT them. They are pretty much white-ish, with only a hint of a greenish tint. They are between 1/32 and 1/16" right now. Visible, but not really distinguishable as a species yet. My net breeder is very fine 2 ply silk mesh, it will hold rotifers for several hours, sometimes for days.

These guys are oblong, but they are as tall as they are wide, and are starting to get little nubs on their heads like small antennae or eyes starting to grow. They are nowhere else in the tank, and I've never seen these particular creatures in my tank before, the closest thing I could compare them to would be baby berghia nudi's. I might be suprised someday, but I just don't know what the heck else they could be other than the elysia babies.

I'll do my darndest to get some video or pics of them tonight. It will be no small task, but I'll give it my best.

mwp · #24 06/06/2006, 09:11 PM

JASON I AM SOOO FREAKIN' STOKED! Would absolutely LOVE to see some pics of what they look like at that size! 1/16" - 25% of the way to "saleable size" already!!! One of the two parents is DEFINITELY slowly on the way out so I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY hoping for your success!

Matt

jnowell · #25 06/07/2006, 04:17 PM

Me too Matt! If you're still getting viable egg strands, I might want to try another one (shipped differently

) in a closed container so I can be darned sure none got out. I'd also like a cleaner environment so I could more closely track their numbers and growth rate.

I really want to write up some good, cohesive info on rearing them, but with my current setup, there is just no way to track or be completely sure of anything.

I think spreading them around is more important, but if you get a good strand with noone to send it to, PM me and I'd take another.

I'll keep you posted on these guys, this weekend I'll have access to a pathologist freinds microscope, so I'll probably sacrifice one and try to get a definitive ID (and pic)

Jason