Offical "DO NOT BUY" list?

[bobafet1]

I thought I had posted already but I guess it didnt go through..anyways, I like the idea of having a general species description along with requirements, sort of like those found in books or online retailers...that would be readily accessible to the everyone. I think most of the carlessness when choosing a species comes at the beginner level and for some throughout the entire time in the hobby. Although it is easy to search the web for info, most people don't do this when they start out. I wonder how many clowns and hippo tangs died because of NEMO. I, am guilty of many casualties due to having "coral fever" and from listening to the LFS guys suggestions. It would be nice to have a website dedicated to fish/coral/invert requirements and care...even a section on this site would be nice.

I think what would also be a good idea is to have contests for fish farming. I would donate money or equipment to the person who can successfully breed a species of fish that is still caught in the wild. This would help reduce the impact we are having on the wild fish population once it is figured out how to breed the species in captivity. This would also make these species cheaper and more readily available to hobbiests. As a matter of fact I think I will start something like this. If anyone wants to help or donate let me know. If the RC Gods help out with this I think it would be a success.

[ratherbediving]

Originally posted by bchristie
Reef Protection International (RPI) has been working on their version of cards to be distributed in stores, not sure of their current status

http://www.reefprotect.org/fish_guide.htm#

There are also some local efforts that provide cards that break down the reasons why one should not keep certain species, such as tank sizes, food costs for adults, and electricity to maintain such large tanks, but nothing large scale yet along those lines that I've seen.

Thanks for posting that-- the downloadable fish guide was nice:

http://www.reefprotect.org/pdf/RPI_180LoRes.pdf

Unfortunately, if you want more information, it tells you to visit www.reefprotect.org, and there doesn't seem to be more information about why a fish is on the list. Hopefully that will be forthcoming.

For those who haven't seen it, there is a nice icon indicating reasons why each fish is on the list-- unsuitable for captivity, collection practices are particularly damaging etc.

[stgla]

I recommend reading John Tullock's statement on AMDA (old): http://www.amdareef.com/ and their standards of practice, but I can't seem to find the really helpful list, which had reasons for excluding certain species from trade. The list went something like:
- animals have needs that cannot be met by hobbyist
- animals have low survival rates from shipping
- wild animals or their habitats are endangered
- animals are required via symbiosis for other species' survival (like cleaners and clowns), so takign them from the wild would upset the balance

Clearly if the numbers of, say, mysteri wrasses were dwindling, you wouldn't want to harvest them no matter how well they ship or survive in the home aquarium.

[RichardS]

The problem is who determines what can and cannot be kept by hobbyist's? I've had a cleaner wrasse for years and he's in a tank with several goniopora which I have also had for several years. I know people who have Morish Idols for many years. There are people setting 30000 gallon shark pools.

I don't see how you can come up with a list that couldn't be easily be debated. There was a time not too long ago when acropora would have been on the top of the list of animals unsuitable for the hobby. If you go by how many animals die in the hands of hobbyists then you'll have to put yellow tangs on the list. Animals that are threatened species should be protected of course but that is an issue of CITES and law enforcement not one for hobbyists to decide.

Information is so easily available now that there really isn't any excuse for not knowing about the care requirements of animal someone chooses to attempt to keep. In my store I have these dusty things called books, alot of people don't seem to think they are of any value.

If you can come up with a way to get everyone to educate themselves beforehand and not make bad decisions then you don't need to worry about having a list. If you do make a list you still have to deal with the issue of getting people to actually read it.

[Paul B]

[QUOTE]The problem is who determines what can and cannot be kept by hobbyist's? Information is so easily available now that there really isn't any excuse for not knowing about the care requirements of animal someone chooses to attempt to keep. In my store I have these dusty things called books, alot of people don't seem to think they are of any value.[QUOTE]

Richard this is very true. Just about all fish that are sold with the exception of maybe four (that I can think of) are relitively easy to keep for if you learn about the animal and then make a commitment to care for it the way it needs to be taken care of. You can't buy a copperband butterfly, mandarin, moorish Idol and seahorse, put them in a tank and feed flakes. It ain't gonna happen. You have to learn what those fish do in the sea, what they eat and how often. There is a reason that all of the fish are not evenly distributed in all of the seas. The oceans have been there for millions of years and the fish as we know them have been there for thousands of years yet most of them are only found in a limited range. Why do moorish Idols only live in the pacific? I don't know. The Caribbean is nice but they are not there nor are long nose butterflys. Why? There is a reason. I don't know it but I am sure there is something in the fishes natural range that it needs, or at least likes. We have to learn what these things are and try to duplicate or at least substitute it. Baby brine shrimp are not always a substitute for pods thats why so many people have a hard time with mandarins. Tangs are schooling fish and are extreamly stressed in a tank alone, thats why they are so called "ich magnets". Copperband butterflys eat worms and most other fish eat smaller fish, heads, guts and all, Frozen Angel Diet may not always work on all fish that look like an angel fish. Moorish Idols eat mostly sponges. Believe me, they do.
That is why, in my opinion it is hard for a Do Not buy List. It should be "Do not Buy" unless you know what you are doing and you are willing to spend the time these animals need. If your fish keep dying, it is not their fault, it is yours.
Paul

[stgla]

Um, I think we've lost sight of the original purpose of this post, which was to provide GUIDELINES, especially for newbies. This is a way of condensing all the literature in those dusty books down to a list for the novice and even the intermediate reef keeper.

For example, me, I think I have a lot of knowledge, but I don't have the dedication to feed live food 4x/day or to spend 10 hrs/week on my tank, or even 10 hrs/week on RC researching the endangeredness of the impact on nature of my ordering fish species X or coral species Y. I would love a cheat-sheet that said:

- Do not buy unless you are dedicated and experienced: (list of 10 species)

- Do not buy from these species from these countries until further notice: (list of species, countries on the ****list for poor fishing practices)

- Do not buy these species unless you really hate Mother Earth: (list of 10 or so endangered, threatened species, or species that are symbiotic with or key food source for threatened species that probably should not be in the trade at all)

I would find that helpful even if it were controversial. That way, I could err on the side of being ecologically correct.

[InLimbo87]

Amen Stgla.. I think you're on the right track on that one. Would be a good reference.

[billsreef]

If your really worried about finding out what species don't do well and why, just pick up a copy of Scott Michael's Pocket Guide to Marine Fish. It really has that useful information of what does well and what doesn't do well. The info is there, you just need to actually go look for it. But than again, the same people that can't bother with Richard's dusty books aren't to prone to reading lists either.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by billsreef
If your really worried about finding out what species don't do well and why, just pick up a copy of Scott Michael's Pocket Guide to Marine Fish. It really has that useful information of what does well and what doesn't do well. The info is there, you just need to actually go look for it. But than again, the same people that can't bother with Richard's dusty books aren't to prone to reading lists either.

So is it safe to say that you spend more time with your face in a book then online when looking for information?

You can preach about books all you want, but that's all they are - printed material by one author sealed in time. The fact is it's easier to find more thorough information online. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's correct, thorough, or adequate. I have probably 8 books on saltwater aquariums (corals/fish/general) and I probably come here and google 97% of the time. Why? They information is often more current, there is more to sift through, and at places like RC there are OPINIONS, which often times is more valuable then one authors word. When looking for information, you can't really say you consult ONE resource and the case is closed... I myself consult several resources before making a decision. This thread had the potential to be one of those resources but instead people had to criticize its intentions.

Books are great, and they add color to my bookshelf... but they are a limited resource. When thinking about adding livestock, I might glance at what it says in one of my books (as a first stop), but whatever is in that book I can usually find ten times more information online.

I just think it's silly to criticize anyone for trying to populate ONE resource for hobbyists. It's up to the hobbyist to find the right resources. Just help out or move on. Your criticism doesn't add to the quality of the thread, it detracts it.

[Paul B]

Davidryder, I don't think Bill meant to say to just read books to find information. I am sure he spends a lot of his time with his face burried in a book as I did many years ago to learn all I could about this hobby. He is also a diver and biologist with many years more experience than you. Everyone knows that books are just one resource but the salt water hobby has been in existance since 1971 so there has been a lot of time for an author to research so he could write a book. I have been in the hobby since the fiftees and I have almost every book written, I even know a few of the authors and wrote many articles myself. I don't agree with all the information in books either but it is someplace to start. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is also plenty of information out there from people with two years in the hobby who's opinion may not carry much weight. I read books, magazines internet articles and I SCUBA dove with every animal I have ever kept. There is information all over the place.
You are a student so I am sure you have to spend much of your time burried in a book.
Paul

[billsreef]

Originally posted by davidryder
So is it safe to say that you spend more time with your face in a book then online when looking for information?

No, it's called knowing my sources of information and not confining myself to one medium of information. Sometimes the old dusty things called books are really quite worthwhile dusting off and reading

The reason I recommend that book to those with an interest in suitable aquarium species is because it is quite accurate. While I don't find myself in agreement with all book authors, I find Scott's information very accurate. In that vein, the recommendation is really quite a good one for those that want to take the time to learn.

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Paul B
Davidryder, I don't think Bill meant to say to just read books to find information. I am sure he spends a lot of his time with his face burried in a book as I did many years ago to learn all I could about this hobby. He is also a diver and biologist with many years more experience than you. Everyone knows that books are just one resource but the salt water hobby has been in existance since 1971 so there has been a lot of time for an author to research so he could write a book. I have been in the hobby since the fiftees and I have almost every book written, I even know a few of the authors and wrote many articles myself. I don't agree with all the information in books either but it is someplace to start. The internet is a wonderful resource but there is also plenty of information out there from people with two years in the hobby who's opinion may not carry much weight. I read books, magazines internet articles and I SCUBA dove with every animal I have ever kept. There is information all over the place.
You are a student so I am sure you have to spend much of your time burried in a book.
Paul

I think I hit almost everything you said about books in my post, so I'm not sure why you replied. And furthermore, the length of time you have spent in this hobby has no bearing on how much weight your 'opinion' holds. Knowledge is knowledge regardless of how long you have known it. I completely agree that books can be a great resource, but any book written more than 10 years ago probably isn't worth a whole lot. There wasn't a lot known about this hobby in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and the beginning of the nineties. In fact, there was practically nothing known at that time. It wasn't until probably the last decade that we learned 80% of the accurate information we know now. It was the power of science and exploration that reinforced the few things we did know, and also progress us to the point we are at now.

In todays age of information coupled with how much this hobby has progressed, it doesn't take 50 years to learn everything about this hobby. The experience is unbeatable, but I would suffice it to say that you yourself have probably learned more about the hobby in the past 10 years than you did 40 years prior to that.

And the reason those books are dusty is because people can get the same book online for $20 cheaper. You can probably even get it from Barnes and Nobles for a cheaper price. Just because the books aren't flying off your shelves doesn't mean people aren't reading them.

[Paul B]

I have to disagree with a few things here. First books written ten years ago can be a valuable resource. My favorite book was written forty years ago by Robert Straughn who has been called The Father of Salt Water Fish keeping. Of course there is no mention of corals in his books but from his many years of diving I first learned where spicific fish come from, their names and what they eat. That information is still true today. The books I have on diseases and fish autopsy are also very old. The information is still valid and some of the treatments I still use even though very few people know about them today.
As to me learning the most in the last ten years, that is also not true. I learned the most in my first ten years because there was no internet and I learned by experimentation, SCUBA diving and trial and error.
I am not the God of fish keeping but there are different degrees of experience. For instance last week I read in another forum about a new hobbiest who bought a moorish Idol and he has it for seven weeks. He said "I don't know what the problem is, this fish is very easy to take care of.
Some people may read that and think everyone should go out and buy this easy fish. Almost any fish will live for seven weeks even if it doesen't eat. Is his knowledge with that one moorish Idol the same as my knowledge with twenty of them for thirty years. There are different degrees of knowledge.
Most fish live over ten years some twenty I have kept some for 18. Of course that doesen't make me an expert but even by accident I had to have picked up a lot of usefull information.
You are correct that a lot of information in books is outdated, most of that information is about filtration, and lighting.
What fish eat, how they breed, where and how long they live, and their biology stays the same and it will remain the same forever.
You are a student, do you get your information from books? Where did your teacher get his information? When you graduate you hopefully will know as much as your teacher then I know you will expand that knowledge with hands on experience but you started with books.
One more thing. I am not argueing with you, I find this interesting and I am sure we agree on many things.
Paul

[Randall_James]

I think the issues brought up are valid, old books often do contain outdated information and not just a little outdated.

New books do mostly contain the items PaulB lists, however these items tend to have a direct relation on husbandry of other fishes and inverts in the same system. So even though they may only be about new filtration techniques (IE live rock), this can have a dramatic effect on many fishes habitat.

I also tend to believe that a simple one page chart is going to be far more valuable than any book on husbandry. Most people will want a yes/no/ and even a "maybe" chart to start with.

Needless to say, research "should" be performed for any fish you plan on keeping. A quick list of "should I bother to research" I think would be the key.

For every fish that is virtually impossible to keep in a home tank, there is at least one exception, this exception can not be used as a "go ahead" IMO.

Yes PaulB has a Moorish Idol, he has had it for some time... does this mean it is ok for others? I do not think so, I feel that the failure rates on that fish dictate that it should just be left alone.

Should PaulB be advocating others to keep this fish? I guess this is up for debate... my list would say this is a "no go" fish

The same goes for most any wild harvested Anemone, 98% die in the first 18 months. This is terrible considering most live to be 100+ years old in the wild, only captive bred specimens should be considered I feel.

Back to the topic, I think we need this quick reference guide and just accept that not everyone is going to agree with the fact that a Mandarin needs 100lbs of live rock...

[davidryder]

Originally posted by Paul B
I have to disagree with a few things here. First books written ten years ago can be a valuable resource. My favorite book was written forty years ago by Robert Straughn who has been called The Father of Salt Water Fish keeping. Of course there is no mention of corals in his books but from his many years of diving I first learned where spicific fish come from, their names and what they eat. That information is still true today. The books I have on diseases and fish autopsy are also very old. The information is still valid and some of the treatments I still use even though very few people know about them today.
As to me learning the most in the last ten years, that is also not true. I learned the most in my first ten years because there was no internet and I learned by experimentation, SCUBA diving and trial and error.
I am not the God of fish keeping but there are different degrees of experience. For instance last week I read in another forum about a new hobbiest who bought a moorish Idol and he has it for seven weeks. He said "I don't know what the problem is, this fish is very easy to take care of.
Some people may read that and think everyone should go out and buy this easy fish. Almost any fish will live for seven weeks even if it doesen't eat. Is his knowledge with that one moorish Idol the same as my knowledge with twenty of them for thirty years. There are different degrees of knowledge.
Most fish live over ten years some twenty I have kept some for 18. Of course that doesen't make me an expert but even by accident I had to have picked up a lot of usefull information.
You are correct that a lot of information in books is outdated, most of that information is about filtration, and lighting.
What fish eat, how they breed, where and how long they live, and their biology stays the same and it will remain the same forever.
You are a student, do you get your information from books? Where did your teacher get his information? When you graduate you hopefully will know as much as your teacher then I know you will expand that knowledge with hands on experience but you started with books.
One more thing. I am not argueing with you, I find this interesting and I am sure we agree on many things.
Paul

.

Well sir thank you for the kind respect. It shall be returned. I think we do agree on many things. I guess I put somewhat of a blanket statement over the age of books. You're right, in the way of anatomy and biology, and geographical origins, the age of the book probably doesn't matter. But there is, IMO, a great deal of information that has been since disproved since it's first appearance in a publication.

And you are also right about seeing a post about Moorish Idols being easy to take care of. Happens all the time! I guess that's where the ability to weigh the validity of sources come in. A lot of people only look for information that satisfies what they really want. For those types, it takes failure for them to learn. Actual hands-on failure.

So it seems we agree in some areas, and disagree in others. Nothing wrong with that... I also understand that my point of view isn't the only one, and just because someone has a different one doesn't mean it's in reality correct or incorrect. I can only convey my opinion because the fact is, no matter how much we think we know something, there is a chance we are wrong.

[RichardS]

You can preach about books all you want, but that's all they are - printed material by one author sealed in time. The fact is it's easier to find more thorough information online. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean it's correct, thorough, or adequate. I have probably 8 books on saltwater aquariums (corals/fish/general) and I probably come here and google 97% of the time.

Your kind of making the point that the information is readily available. If it's important to you to rewrite it then knock yourself out.

[Paul B]

David, I think we agree on most things. And about being wrong, I have been wrong many times. Unfortunately sometimes I diden't find out until it was too late.

RandallJames, for the record I don't recommend moorish Idols for most people.

[TarheelFrag]

My vote goes for adding the Hippo (AKA Ich) Tang to the list....

[T Man]

I think the Hippo tang too. This has been quite the thread, a real good idea. I say expand it to the whole reef, it would open up a whole new resource for a beginner to benifit from the mistakes and trials that we have all made in our tanks.
Sand dollars! They need more sand than we can provide in our captive systems- plain and simple...............Do Not Buy! TinMan