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I just wanted to add one thing to what you said above. I believe you are correct in assuming that these corals are a dark brown color when first collected. The problem, at least in my area, is that by the time these corals make it to our LFS they have lost a great deal of thier algae. I believe that this compounds the problem. If we could get Elegance corals that still had a large population of algae it would be much easier to acclimate them to our systems. Thanks for your help with this. I am truly grateful. |
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With that said, I don't completely agree with your understanding of zooxanthallae (algae, for the rest of this)and the way they function. I only know of one color of algae. That is shades of brown. There are different species of these algae that are better suited to different environments, but to the best of my knowledge they are all brown. I have never read, or saw for my self, where these algae move around inside the coral. The only time I know of them moving is when the coral ejects them. I believe that the coral has the ability to regulate the numbers and to some extent the species of algae in its tissue. However I don't know of them changing their placement inside the coral in an attempt to adjust to different light levels. The secondary pigments are on the outer layers of the coral. They are used to filter the light that penitrates deeper into the animal. The reason that they apear more abundantly in bright light situations is that the coral has the ability to produce these pigments. I don't believe that these pigments are hidden underneath the algae and show up as the algae retreats deeper into the coral. If you can point me to any articals on this that describes this the way you did I would greatly appreciate it. Honestly not trying to start an argument. I just want to make sure that my facts are correct. |
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Here's an article which may be of some use.
Coral Photoacclimation by Trevor-Jones, Andrew and found this but havent read it yet The Elegance Coral Project by Borneman, Eric and this seemed interesting Asexual Reproduction of Catalaphyllia jardinei (Elegance coral) by Durso, Richard
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-David- "The world is headed for mutiny when all we want is unity" Scott Stapp, Creed |
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Thanks for the articales. The second and third one I have allready read. The first one was one that I hadn't read. Thanks again.
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#56
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5500k lights & two 40w antinics. This is when they were easy to keep. I never fed the coral & doubled in size in a years time. I would say the water was more nutrient rich than how we keep reefs now as most skimmers were junk back then.
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Ed |
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This is very intresting.
I am glad someone is trying to figure out WHY these corals are not doing well in many tanks, and HOW we can have better luck with them.
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*I love anemones* |
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I understand you haven't fully finished your project. That's OK, IMO. Any advice or assistance is a very welcome idea.
There may be other reefers who have had simmular experience to what you're talking about. They may be able to help you, or you help them.... I was thinking perhaps a virus was infecting the corals. Most other meds have been tried, and failed. Anti-virals are a newer set of meds, and not easily purchased at your local Wal-Mart. A virus isn't easily identified, either. Special microscopes are necessary. I haven't done ANY research, just a lame thought of mine... I will be reading this thread, and I do hope some new *light* will be shed on this subject. (Sorry- Bad pun intended!)
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*I love anemones* |
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Burnt Goniopora. This coral used to be green and brown with long polyps and was burned by intense lighting. Dying Elegance coral. It is now mostly bleached. The tentacles down around the lower perimeter contain a little more zooxanthellae than the tentacles on top. This is usually associated with too intense of lighting. Dying Goniopora coral. The top slowly bleached from too intense of lighting. Notice the lower polyps still contain zooxanthellae and the top bleached polyps/tentacles don't extend as far.
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*Disclaimer: Due to variances in the perception of reality, the words you see may not be the ones I typed. Last edited by John Kelly; 05/29/2007 at 02:56 PM. |
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elegance
Hi
Hers a pic of mine ive had now for two years , it under two 400 wtt 14k Mh . ive got it at the top of the tank . The MH are 18" from the top of the water ,its placed hafe way under the tanks brase . I feed it very finely chopped up squid , octpus i get at walmarts in the seafood depatment. |
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They looked fine except for the sections covered in mucus or the shrucken tentacles. If it was only bleached elegances that were dying, it'd be easier to isolate a cause.
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it's always darkest before it's totally black |
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Darrell (elegance coral) is the only person I've seen that is researching living specimens and drawing up other potential hypothesis and actually testing them. Since he focuses on lighting as a potential cause of the "sickness", I posted some photos showing some effects of what lighting can do and described some of the similarities between the symptoms (loss of zoox, shrunken tentacles, damaged tissue).
Of the 4 or 5 sick ones that I have witnessed, they were all discolored like mine or like in the photo below (taken from RK Mag). They didn't start out that way, but I think the majority of the sick ones eventually end up looking similar. That doesn't mean it is primarily a bleaching problem though. They could still be getting "burned" and internally damaged without bleaching first. Personally, I think one of the most important questions is, is it actually something that is transmitted from a "sick" Elegance to a healthy Elegance or is that a widespread belief that has very little foundation; like so many other beliefs circulating through the hobby?
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*Disclaimer: Due to variances in the perception of reality, the words you see may not be the ones I typed. |
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I'm to assume your theroy on light is correct, how would someone correct the lighting if the Elegance coral starts to show signs of "light intoxication" or too much light?
If the polyps start to puff up, and the tentacles shrink, what next? Remove it from the light for 3 days? Jusk keep it under actinics for a few days? How have you assisted your Elegance in recovery? If the Elegance will bleach with too little light, get puffed polyps with too much light, what would you recogmend for an Elegance just starting to show "puffed polyp stress"? What type of lighting do you suggest? At what PAR? How about color? 14k, 20K?? MH,T-5's, PC??? -And thanks!
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*I love anemones* |
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Many different treatments have been tried, from Lugol's, to anti-fungal dips, and antibotics. None yet to my knowledge have proven sucessful. It could be a virus... That would explain quite a lot actually, about transmission. And perhaps why it isn't seen in the ocean much. A virus is difficult to identify, and unlike bacteria, often difficult to treat with meds... Often only the symptoms are given treatment. Just an idea... If someone had a sick Elegance coral, they could try feeding it an anti-viral like Interferon. I don't think any anti-virals have been tried yet, that I'm aware of.
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*I love anemones* |
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#68
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In the past week I have bought and killed 2 more Elegance corals. That makes 3 during this study. They didn't die from a strange disease or killer protazoans. I killed them by placing them in light that was to bright for them. I really don't want to do that anymore. From now on if I buy an Elegance it will be to keep it alive and not to test a theory. I have been doing much more thinking about this problem. I have changed my viewpoint just a little. One thing that just keeps sticking in my mind is the lady that was on a boat while they were collecting Elegance corals. She said that by the time the corals made it to the boat they would be showing the over inflated oral disk and shrunken tentacles. I know this to be a reaction to bright light. I also believe the professionals when they say that they found protazoans living in dead or dieing coral tissue. In any salt water environment there are many organisms that feed on weakened animals. If these corals are being damaged by sunlight durring colletion then they will be more supseptable to these organisms. When these corals are placed into the collecters holding tanks these organisms could multiply and feed on these injured corals compounding the problem. The only problem I have with this is that after a coral shows these symtoms they begin to go down hill quickly. Even after being removed from the light that caused the problem in the first place. I don't believe such a coral could mask its problem long enough to make it from the ocean to our aquariums. Especially if you add in parisitic protazoans. After all that, I still believe that if you find an Elegance coral with long flowing tentacles and a deep rich color that the coral is healthy. As long as this coral is protected from bright light and nasty tank mates it should remain healthy. I would not advise anyone to buy an Elegance with short tentacles. This is a dead giveaway that the coral has a problem. |
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If it is the light, I would have assumed the the part of the elegance to show damage first/most would be the part exposed to the most light. A lot of the elegances I've seen die seem to show damage first at the ends though for some reason, even if one end is facing away from the light.
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it's always darkest before it's totally black |
#70
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All the Elegance corals I have see die, do it in the same way you described. No matter what the problem was that killed the coral it seems to always start decomposing from the edges on the skeleton in. I saved one of my corals that started this by cutting it in half. This is a pic of the little guy about a week after I did it. He looks more like and Elegance now, but not my much. |
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or Did they retract tentacles, bleach, then die or Did they retract tentacles then die Was there any Puffing up behavior? Mucous shedding? Were the tentacles on the specimens pink or purple? Were the oral areas surrounding the mouths saturated with fluorescent proteins and colorful or were they more clear and less colorful? I hope you are photo-documenting everything . If only you could examine the zooxanthellae species and/or fluorescent protein crystallizations of each specimen to see if there is a common denominator. The type of zoox and the FP would help determine their sensitivity to light. I wonder if Eric B. has ever thought to have that done . I would bet that there is at least a difference between the zooxanthellae type and probably the FP structure in the deep water vs. shallow water elegance. PS. That looks like a Goni next to your Elegance.
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*Disclaimer: Due to variances in the perception of reality, the words you see may not be the ones I typed. |
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No, but this was my Goni next to my Elegance.
Sorry about the quality. No didgital cameras back then. |
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The first Elegance was ill in the LFS. It had lost most of its algae and was somewhat withdrawn but still had a great deal of its secondary pigments (FP). I assumed that it could withstand more light because of the lack of alge in its tissues. I was wrong. It puffed up and withdrew its tentacles under a 250W 10K MH. After removing it from the light it withdrew deeper into its skeleton and never came back. The second one was beautiful! It was bright green with a dark brown color to its tissues. It was fully expanded with tentacles that were almost 2 inches ling. I placed it under a 175W 10K MH. It began discharging something very quickly. It looked like it was smoking. I quickly moved it to PC lighting. It began to puff up and withdraw its tentacles. All of this took about 30 seconds. Within minutes it began withdrawing and was dead in 2 days. I tried iodine dips and cutting it in half, but it was to far gone. I believe you are right about the different species of zooxanthellae. (algae, for short) Some scientest believe that corals not only have the ability to discharge their algae, but to retain algae from the water. This is why I have several different SPS frags, GSP, a clam, a red brain, many species of shrooms, and 2 species of anemones. My hopes are to have a wide range of algae species in the tank. If this is true it would explain the purpose for bleaching in the first place. If a coral is shaded by a coral above, and that coral becomes dislodged in a storm, the bottom coral would now be exposed to brighter light. Bleaching would expell the algae species that is not suited for this bright light environment and free up space for an algae species that is better suited to this new environment. The top coral landing in a dimmer area of the reef would be able to benefit from the same process. This is all speculation. I can't prove a word of it. If this is true an Elegance coral trying to make the leap from deep water to shallow water lighting could be in big trouble if there isn't an acceptable species of algae in the aquarium. |
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PS. That looks like a Goni next to your Elegance.
The pic makes things look much larger than they are. The coral on the left is a sps frag. The Elegance is maybe an inch and a half long. The coral on the right is another Elegance. |
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