Tank emergency

[wes_8_u]

I don't have a quarantine tank, and have got fish dying from what i assume is white spots.

I am planning to treat with copper tonight

Therefore i need to quickly remove my coral which composed of an elegance, finger and mushroom. And i need to also remove the coral banded shrimp. I might be able to take these to LFS in a day or two so i need a way to keep them alive until then. Would they be ok if i left them in a large bucket for the time being??

any help would be greatly appreciated.

[AquaJern]

I still pretty new to this, but I recently bought a fish to put in my reef tank and I have no chiller....
Anyways had a couople of pretty hot days so I refrained from putting him in the tank he has fine in a five gallon so I assume youll be fine for the time being..

[0 Agios]

I hope you did not treat your tank with copper, I just read this thread, DONT it will kill all your live rock and contaminate the fish tank, it will be useless if you did that, quarantine instead.

[wes_8_u]

Originally posted by 0 Agios
I hope you did not treat your tank with copper, I just read this thread, DONT it will kill all your live rock and contaminate the fish tank, it will be useless if you did that, quarantine instead.

I used something called Cupramine- buffered active copper, i thought it would leave the nitrifying bacteria alone ????!!! I had to do something quick, because i lost one fish yesterday and 3 today- at that rate i would have lost all my fish by tonight. Had no quarantine facilities.... DId i do something real bad? what are some of the things i should do be doing now?


i hate being a noob

[ArgonDreams]

Instead of removing the corals, remove the fish and put them in quarantine. There are several methods to treat Marine Ich, only one of which is Copper. If you treat copper be sure you are using a Copper test kit, and I emphasize not to treat your main tank. Copper is absorbed into several types of material including sand and will leach constantly into the water.

[wes_8_u]

Originally posted by ArgonDreams
Instead of removing the corals, remove the fish and put them in quarantine. There are several methods to treat Marine Ich, only one of which is Copper. If you treat copper be sure you are using a Copper test kit, and I emphasize not to treat your main tank. Copper is absorbed into several types of material including sand and will leach constantly into the water.

according to the labelling on the cupramine, it remains in solution and does not contaminate the filter bed- is this enough and trustworthy? has anyone else used such a product?

[papagimp]

As a general rule of thumb, if you are treating with copper at all, do not add it to your display tank. Remove the fish and medicate them in a hospital or QT tank. If you recently added copper to the display, I would worry and run to the store, get a polyfilter, run that ASAP and hope for the best.

[ricks]

Ozone will help with ich. You will need to kill the cycle in your deplay tank. I'm not sure but I think it's on a 3 week cycle. The cysts take that long to hatch. They will live where your fish sleeps, then reattach themselfs on the host. Fish seem to be more susceptible when stressed or sick. If you treat your main tank with copper, I would not use the tank or rocks for coral...

Good Luck

[papagimp]

cycle can be longer than 3 weeks, this is why we typically QT for about 4-6 weeks. And QTing for 8 weeks would probably be even better. This means you would need to leave the tank fallow (fishless) for the duration of this time, and as rick mentioned, if already treated with copper, I'd be wary about using the rock and sand again for corals or inverts. I'd probably get the best copper test kit you can, maybe a salifert and check your copper levels

[puffer21]

if you put copper in the main tank. then you probably wont be able to ever put corals in the tank and liverock. Only fish.

[Shagsbeard]

Copper ruins your tank for inverts... it's not just the inverts that you can see. All the pods, bristleworms, and any number of other species will be killed off. And water changes alone will not remove the copper from the system. If you added a copper based medication to your tank, it's pretty much ruined. It's going to be toxic for quite some time.

Papagimp's advice as to testing is sound, but you should test the water after a good week without waterchanges. If you test it right after a water change, you're going to get an artificially low reading.

[wes_8_u]

ok... so now i've already used this product cupramine in my tank, would it still be worthwhile me setting up a QT tank. I'm sorry but i know this is probably a real noob question but what do i need to do to set up QT tank?

and with QT tank should i be treating with copper.

Now that i've added copper to my display will that treat the cysts?

[kevin2000]

Placing copper into the show tank wasn't a great idea .. but thats water that spilled and I would continue treatment.

Seachem claims that Cupramine won't bind with calcium carbonate like other coppers ... I suspect part of that claim is marketing hype and part might be true (may be less susceptible).

Make sure you monitor the copper level in the water column (twice daily) and make sure you copper test kit can accurately measure Cupramine (many don't). Seachem, Salifert and Red Sea test kits can measure Cupramine .. not sure what other test kits can. When in doubt email Seachem - they are very prompt in responding to questions.

After treatment is over you might "test" your tank by placing some inexpensive inverts back into the tank ... if they don't survive then you should consider tossing the live rock and substrate.

Check out the disease forum .. there are some good "sticky" threads discussing ich.

[wes_8_u]

Thanks Kevin, i will email seachem to get more general information.

I am always hesitant about adding things to my tank without knowing more info... i was seemingly running out of options. I wanted to wait, but i think it cost me 3 more fish so i had to be rather abrupt and have possibly made a bad desicion

ok, so apart from possibly binding calcium carbonate, will this product kill the nitryfying bacteria?

also, the redsea copper test kit i got reads ppm. Seachem says i should maintain copper conc around .5mg/l What would the conversion for this be in ppm?

[kevin2000]

Cupramine will retard the nitryfying bacteria some and it may also confuse your ammonia test kit (some test kits can't distinguish between the amine based cupramine and ammonia). An inexpensive Seachem ammonia alert badge should work .. or a Seachem ammonia test kit (use free ammonia vs total ammonia).

As far as the red sea copper test kit. The ppm - mg/l conversion is 1:1. You may find that your Red Sea test kit doesn't register high enough .. the way to get around that is to dilute your water sample by 1/2 with distilled water and test ... just double the result.

Heres a link to Seachem's FAQ on Cupramine .. may help.

http://seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html

You may have some die off of critters in your live sand and live rock ... this will degrade water quality and it may be a good idea to make up a large batch of replacement water just in case .. make sure you "re-test" and adjust copper concentration after a water change.

Hope this helps.

[rsw686]

I would either pull the live rock out of the tank and place it in a trashcan with new saltwater and a some sort of filter with polyfilter in it to remove the copper. Or pull the fish, buy a QT tank, and run polyfilter in your display to rid it off copper along with water changes. The price for a QT tank is nothing compared to the amount of money you'll spend to replace the live rock, etc. Don't risk it try and rectify the problem now.

[jayvee10]

It's Always best not to treat your Main tank. It will be cheaper and beneficial for you in a long run if you get a quarantine tank for the fish or if you a large container that can hold the fish, that will also work. Run a filter immediately on your Main tank and carbon to take out the copper. by sure to test it for copper befor putting back your corals. goodluck

[wes_8_u]

Ok, i will get a hospital tank set up for the future.
For the time being i'm pretty limited on options both financially and knowledge wise, I guess i can only continue using this cupramine product and hope that their claims that it does not get absorbed is true. I will test for copper daily, and by the end of it will put in some copper removers. and watch the levels over a week before i put an invert back into the tank to test, as kevin suggested. or any other ideas?

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

[ahullsb]

I would qt your fish now in another tank. Search threads for hyposalinity, it is another way of treating ich and you don't need to use medications such as copper. I am another person who wouldn't risk using the water, sand, rock, and maybe even the tank for corals now. It just doesn't seem worth the risk to spend a ton of money of fish, corals, and set up a tank, only to watch it crash because of copper that leached into the water from some pump, pipe, or powerhead. But I also don't know much about this particular medication. But read up on hypo salinity I think you might want to try it for you fish now and in the future. PM me if you want help finding links.

[Rockhead21564]

cuprasorb(sic?) absorbs copper out of the enviroment. I wouldn't use the tank, nor anything else other than for FOWLR

[spinninmidwater]

wow... so sorry to hear this.

i would never use anything the tank, the pumps, the rock, just anything if ever contaminated by copper (no matter what form or what the label says) with corals and other inverts. simply isn't worth risking it

if i were u, i'd keep this tank fish only and start over a new reef tank

copper and inverts should never be in the same line unless there's a big NO in it, JMO

[ahullsb]

wes_8_u- I'm sorry about what happened. Let us know what you plan to do. Don't let your local LFS convince you that eveyone on here is paranoid and the stuff is fine for your tank(in case that is what's happening). Trade tanks or setups with someone who wants a fish only tank.

[wes_8_u]

Originally posted by ahullsb
wes_8_u- I'm sorry about what happened. Let us know what you plan to do. Don't let your local LFS convince you that eveyone on here is paranoid and the stuff is fine for your tank(in case that is what's happening). Trade tanks or setups with someone who wants a fish only tank.

thanks for the support- i really appreciate it, i'll keep you updated as to what will happen, and where i'll go with it all. these few days have been tough. THanks for all your help. I'll have to do a bit more homework- this really is a heartbreaking hobby.

anyway as a quick update I emailed seachem (the manafactures of cupramine, the product i used)- and they replied claiming that using a product called cuprisorb will remove the copper from the live rock and will be safe to put inverts back in. from what i gather from what you guys are saying.... this is just not worth the risk?

[kevin2000]

Yeah .. copper wasn't the best choice .. in a similar squeeze (absolutely no QT) you would have been better off using hypo salinity in the show tank. In both cases moving all the live rock and inverts is essential (rubbermaid trashcan with powerhead/heater works fine). However .. thats spilled water .. your committed so just finish the task and adjust accordingly.

[Icefire]

I would have tryed to remove the copper ASAP as you might not be able for a long time with your rocks.

I would have put the fish in a rubbermaid to treat.