Why are LFS prices so high?

[MarkD40]

I recently went to my LFS to get 3 replacement PC bulbs. 36", 96 watt bulbs were $79.95 each! I purchased the same bulbs from Drsfostersmith for $28.99 each with $12.00 shipping and handling and I got the bulbs in 4 days! $240.00 vs $100.00! A GenX Mak5 pump at my LFS is $329.00 and at Marine Depot it is $189.00.

I would love to support my LFS and would be willing to pay 20-30% more than online but not over 200%. Even less costly items like flake food and supplements are 50-100% more than the cost on-line.

I understand that they have high overhead, but isn't it better to sell 10 bulbs at 30% over wholesale than 1 bulb at 200+% over wholesale?

Can anyone explain the reason(s) why they charge so much?

[Andrew]

Dunno prices on fish and corals are higher in the winter here for some reason. The lfs around me have good prices. The equipment is kinda high but fish and corals prices are great.

[coralights]

At any given point a single LFS may charge more than what seems proper ..... LFS generally get a 20% discount off of list .... mail order companies get a lot more ......

LFS should be supported if they supply you with good advice and healthy livestock .... mail order companies should not because they do not add any value to the transaction ... and often when you factor in the cost of shipping they are not much different in price?

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

There are many bad LFS also ..... but if you can find a good one ... give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

[James77]

LFS's don't neccecarily have the buying power that a huge online dealer may have. Add to that higher general overhead, and it is hard for them to charge anyless thane they do.

I usually buy the more expensive equipment online, both for the price and greater selection. I buy the actual aquarium, LR, and most of the livestock at the LFS.
James

[Paintbug]

i will add coming from someone that has ran more than one small retail shop, the wholesalers that we would buy our invatory from always seem to have internet sites that sell to the public. they would see on the site at most 5% above our cost. they would have speicals on their sites that would be lower than what they offered us. at the paintball shop our rent was $1500, insurance was $400 a month, then you have lights, phones, payroll, on and on. we had to make about $3500 a month just to pay the bills, thats not total $3500 that just profit of $3500. we didnt even have a nice shop, it was small. our mark up was on avgerage 50% if we paid $100 it was sold at $150 except the larger items, like a $1500 paintball gun, we probablly paid $1300+ for it. as with any expensive hobby the internet is killing the local shops. im not going to lie and say i will never order off the internet myself, but its not that im cheap, its im poor i cant afford spending $100 bucks extra just to keep a local place open. i will say $80 for a PC bulb is HIGH though. my LFS sells them for $30.

[RudeBoy]

I wouldn't say that mail order companies shouldn't be supported... it's not fair to them. Especially since al lot of them are sponsors of this site. You have to take the good with the bad. If you go to your LFS, you have to pay higher prices... if you do mail order, you have to pay for shipping. At least with mail order, you can get in with a group of people and order a massive amount of livestock and split the shipping amoung everyone that orders. You can't do that with your LFS.

Just my $.02

[Dubbin1]

Originally posted by coralights

LFS should be supported if they supply you with good advice and healthy livestock .... mail order companies should not because they do not add any value to the transaction ... and often when you factor in the cost of shipping they are not much different in price?

Dude there is no freaking way that I would pay a 200% markup when it can be had MUCH cheaper buying online. I don't care if the LFS employees kissed my butt everytime I stepped in the store. Mail order companies DO value your transaction. If they didn't then they wouldn't have a business.

Originally posted by coralights

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

There are many bad LFS also ..... but if you can find a good one ... give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

DIY people are some of the best reefers out there and should not be considered cheapskates. Saving money on something does not mean that they give bad advice.

Bad advice is telling people to pay the 200% markup and not complain about it....

[Lakeside518]

I agree with James77 and add that i buy frozen foods, medications, and maintenance items as well Larger ticket items I buy online.

[Lakeside518]

I consider shipping costs to be low. When you factor in no sales tax. I got Reef crystals 160 gal mix plus shipping and was still lower then buying local. Not that i wouldn't, I just make larger orders then most. Have multiple tank setups and needs.

[gobygoby]

Originally posted by coralights

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

Its a good thing for all the DIY'ers who have come up with new products for this hobby that have now turned mainsteam. and allowed us to continue growing. I am gonna take a wild guess, But I would venture to say that 50% or better of all patented/mass produced items started out from a DIY'er

all ideas have to start somewhere.....even if the original was created from inexpensive parts.

[BarryF]

Originally posted by coralights
At any given point a single LFS may charge more than what seems proper ..... LFS generally get a 20% discount off of list .... mail order companies get a lot more ......

LFS should be supported if they supply you with good advice and healthy livestock .... mail order companies should not because they do not add any value to the transaction ... and often when you factor in the cost of shipping they are not much different in price?

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

There are many bad LFS also ..... but if you can find a good one ... give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

Wow. Biased much?

[smcnally]

Originally posted by coralights
At any given point a single LFS may charge more than what seems proper ..... LFS generally get a 20% discount off of list .... mail order companies get a lot more ......

LFS should be supported if they supply you with good advice and healthy livestock .... mail order companies should not because they do not add any value to the transaction ... and often when you factor in the cost of shipping they are not much different in price?

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

There are many bad LFS also ..... but if you can find a good one ... give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

LMAO...this is one of the most rediculous comments I've seen here. I work in a business that is affected by online sales as well (Home theater and home automation). A lot of LFS are just plain greedy and jack the prices up. There is no other explaination to jack costs up 200%. Most of the time, their cost of getting their supplies is a little less than an online price. They would sell a lot more if they would mark them up 50-75%. IF I saw a pump online for $100+ Shipping, and for $150 at my LFS, I would probably buy it from my LFS. The way for a local shop to make money is to special order protected items for customers. I don't know how many there are in the aquarium trade, but I know Tunze is one that is protected and the price is the same everywhere. Even in the electronics business, the most we would normally make on a protected line would be 100% of cost. If we makrked up 200% we'd be out of business!

BTW...DIYers are not "cheep", they are talented and putting talent to use. Do you cook your own dinner? Yes? Well why aren't you supporting the local restraunts?

[hyperfocal]

The wholesale price your LFS pays to their distributor is often *more* than what you can buy the same item for from an internet retailer.

Large internet retailers benefit from their low overhead, buying in much larger quantities, and the ability to price loss-leaders (selling one item at below-cost while making up the difference on another higher-profit item).

[reefgeek84]

Originally posted by smcnally
LMAO...this is one of the most rediculous comments I've seen here. I work in a business that is affected by online sales as well (Home theater and home automation). A lot of LFS are just plain greedy and jack the prices up. There is no other explaination to jack costs up 200%. Most of the time, their cost of getting their supplies is a little less than an online price. They would sell a lot more if they would mark them up 50-75%. IF I saw a pump online for $100+ Shipping, and for $150 at my LFS, I would probably buy it from my LFS. The way for a local shop to make money is to special order protected items for customers. I don't know how many there are in the aquarium trade, but I know Tunze is one that is protected and the price is the same everywhere. Even in the electronics business, the most we would normally make on a protected line would be 100% of cost. If we makrked up 200% we'd be out of business!

BTW...DIYers are not "cheep", they are talented and putting talent to use. Do you cook your own dinner? Yes? Well why aren't you supporting the local restraunts?

This is a valid point. In my quest in considering opening my own fish store, I got my hands on what a LFS pays for their stuff after shipping and they mark up anywhere from 150-400% depending on what the item is and if there is a special on it. LFS are starting to meet online prices, due to the internet creeping in on their business.

Also a lot of online vendors offer free shipping on items when you spend over 150-200 bucks and when we are talking coral that is not that much coral to buy.

[coralights]

"LMAO...this is one of the most rediculous comments I've seen here."
"BTW...DIYers are not "cheep", they are talented and putting talent to use."

Sorry, many DIY's are cheep ... some are talented ... and in all fairness most can't afford what they want ....

Also there are no DIY projects that require a whole lot of talent ..... building a tank? a protein skimmer etc ... it's not rocket science & there's plenty of reference material for the neophytes ... you just need a lot of time & money to waste ...

it's the insensitivity to the talented retail experts (what few there are) who need to make a living, just like DIY's do at their jobs..... but many will pick the LFS brain and waste his time ... without spending a dime ..... while making beleive they're going to spend money

"Do you cook your own dinner? Yes? Well why aren't you supporting the local restraunts?"

Do you buy a pump, UV or an aquarium every morning, noon and night? :-)

every one is entitled ... but DIY is generally not good for LFS .... and neither are chain stores for new hobbyists once the LFS are gone .... but they'll be plenty of DIY advice on the internet to help them out .... yeh right ....

[dwhit0102]

Ok here's the problem with what people are saying Dr. Foster and Smith give lower prices because they buy an exceeding amount of the same product. When this is done the distributor lowers the price for them because of the massive quantity that they buy.

With some LFS yes I will agree they will rip you off. That is why you need to find one with people that you trust and know that they will not cheat you out of your money to buy from. The reason their prices are higher is because they can't afford to buy an excessive amount of the samething.

So don't rip on all of the LFS just because one is trying to rip you off. That creates bad business for the ones that don't do that.

[smcnally]

coralights, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Saying a DIYer is not good for a LFS is like saying a person that doesn't own a tank is bad for a LFS...It is business they wouldn't get anyways. We have DIYers in the home theater industry too. I could care less. They set up their stuff, and we'll sell them whatever they want to buy from us. Our theory is that that type of person isn't our type of customer. They don't hurt us. We still benifit by what little they do buy from us. If a LFS can't make their money without ripping off customers then they need to deal with people buying elsewhere or builing their own stuff. That's life.

[smcnally]

One last note. The internet is not going to go away, and they are not going to raise their prices to please manned stores. The only way local shops will survive (IMO) is to lower their prices and move product. We have a local store here that has rediculous prices. I find it funny that the equipment has been on their shelf for so long that it has a layer of dust on it. If they lowered the price (and still got a 50% markup on it) they probably would sell 5 in the time it takes to sell one.

[dwhit0102]

With some LFS they can lower their prices but, what angers me is when they say that LFS rip people off they include everyone and another thing is that have the time people buy online they come to the LFS and ask how it works or for us/them to set it up for them. If you buy something don't run to the FS nearest you to setup something when you weren't loyal enough to buy it from them.

[Pilot Fish]

I tend to agree with some of CORALIGHTS points. I have been in this hobby for some time. I have worked in some LFS as well as owned my own service company and I can't tell you how much a good LFS is worth its weight in gold--AND how much it sucks when your best LFS has poor selection and high prices. I would love to be able to walk into a store and actually see a product or animal right in front of my face rather than having to hope that the part I am ordering is going to work in the manner I want it to, or that it won't take weeks for it to arrive from on online vendor. I would pay extra for that ability. Now I seem to waste more money in gas going from store to store searching for things I need, its exhausting.


I will also say this-I know this hobby can be ultra-expensive, I hate that--- but I can't stand some of these DIY guys that I have had to talk for hours on end on how get enough parts together so they can jimmy-rig some bull**** "FUGE" or make their underated pump work.

[rochestertank]

I own a business or two and here is my take: If you own a retail store with a physical location then you have to pay people to stock the shelves and so on. Paying people sucks when you are in small business. It takes off of your profit. So if I pay someone $10 to sell something for $200 then my max profit is $190. If I pay people to sell 10 items for $20 and each one costs %4 in labor, then my max profit is $150. And that is not to mention the headache of having all of those people working for you. Just a little bit of info. Non-business owners that I know (like my customers and definitely people who work for me) really don't know profit from the business owner's perspective very well. You really have to run the numbers and consider the potential downfalls (such as lawsuits and so on) when deciding things like how much to charge and so on. Lastly, oddly enough, I have positioned both of my main business to be inexpensive service and sales. Why? Less complaints

[rochestertank]

$5 in labor. sorry...

[MarkD40]

O.K., so the LFS gets inventory only slightly less the the online price. If that is the case mark it up 50% and sell it. They are still making a decent profit. We only have two LFS stores in Wichita. Both are staffed with helpful and knowlegable people. But as smcnally says they have way overpriced merchandise on their shelves covered in dust. Often when you go in the help is just hanging out and selling nothing. According to the post by roschestertank, selling a higher quantity of a lower priced item cost you more and makes less profit. If the people are on the clock, you have to pay them whether they are selling anything or not, so this makes no sense. Every item they sell helps to pay for them being there.

I use to work in the hardware dept. at Sears making a 6% commission everything I sold. Most of the salesman would only bother to help customers who wanted big-ticket items, because they made more in commission for each sale. I cruised the aisles and picked up every customer I could before they went to the cashier and rang them up even if they were buying something for a dollar. The result: I made more commision than any other salesman every week. So I don't buy the idea that you need to make a killing on only a few sales instead of making a little on lots of sales.

[sequential]

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers

Actually, the problem with LFS is as simple as the basic principles of free market economics. Most LFS have a low demand for their products, thus carry a limited number of products that they can make a profit off of. A product at your LFS may sit on the shelves for months without being discounted, including livestock. This produces a built in loss for every product as each product takes storage or care.

With the introduction of internet competition, the consumer benefits while the resellers struggle to meet the higher expectations of the consumer. Wholesalers and manufacturers actually benefit.

Many people are not comfortable or experienced enough, or are just plain ignorant about the huge cost savings, to buy things with only the assistance of a web page. Thus, LFS continue to have business, though it has been significantly impacted by internet retailers.

My 20g wide cost me, over the course of the first six months, close to $1000 at my LFS. I'd have probably spent half that if I had purchased everything online and been reading RC at the time. I'd also have ended up with a better tank, better quality livestock, and a less expensive upgrade path or at least an inkling of how much upgrading would cost me. My LFS would have upgraded me to a 55g with my TetraTec PF300, a 100W heater, 10 - 20 lb of live rock, no RO/DI, no skimmer, and 38W of lights.

The introduction of internet resellers has helped establish reasonable market clearing prices for the consumer, where the LFS keeps the hobby out of the reach of many consumers.

who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money.

The worst advice I have received has been from my LFS. I take everything I read on the forums with a grain of salt and verify information with reference material before acting. At the LFS, it's a hit and run sale. Many smaller stores have virtually non-existant return policies, so if they can convince you to buy today, they profit. They should be in used car sales. (My family sells cars, used and new. I recognize the same sales techniques at many LFS. It disgusts me.)

They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

I deal with mail order companies because:

1) I'm a student. I took a part time job to make some much needed improvements to a set up that my LFS steered me wrong on. I can't afford to pay $70 for 160g of salt when I can get it for $40.

2) I don't need to explain my set up to every sales person I deal with. When I go in to buy snails, I don't want to hear that I need $1,000 worth of equipment today before reluctantly selling me snails.

3) I'm not an expert and neither are a vast majority of the kids working at the LFS. I'd prefer to get my advice here.

4) I don't enjoy being treated like a criminal by the LFS who is losing the fight against internet retailers. I've been asked to leave one LFS after letting slip that I bought a product online and heard many an LFS employee gripe about "web customers".

There are many bad LFS also

In my area, they are the norm.

but if you can find a good one

There were three LFS available by public transit in my last town. One had a single marine tank with livestock and did not sell salt. One had several marine tanks with livestock and did sell salt, but the marine supplies were limited. The other was, at the time, the best fish store I had ever been to. It had inverts, a first in my experience. It had a wide selection of supplies. The prices were even reasonable, but the quality of the livestock was barely passable. This was the store I dealt with. Their understanding of the technology and the hobby was many orders of magnitude better than the others, but many orders of magnitude behind the times.

More recently, after I moved, I found a marine specialist nearby. It is the only marine specialist in an hours drive. The store is extraordinary in terms of its selection, it's also exceedingly over priced, has a high pressure sales environment, carries a limited selection of equipment, and is open a limited number of hours. It took me two years to find this store. I'd have left the hobby if the internet had not been there for me.

give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

Maybe in your limited view of the hobby, I don't belong, but I'm thankful for the technology that has allowed me to participate.

[boodwah]

Originally posted by coralights
At any given point a single LFS may charge more than what seems proper ..... LFS generally get a 20% discount off of list .... mail order companies get a lot more ......

LFS should be supported if they supply you with good advice and healthy livestock .... mail order companies should not because they do not add any value to the transaction ... and often when you factor in the cost of shipping they are not much different in price?

The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.

There are many bad LFS also ..... but if you can find a good one ... give that LFS all your business and don't complain about the price.

I discussed this very issue with one of my LFS. He told me that often you can order most things on the Internet as cheap or cheaper than he can get them from his supplier. Therefore, he carrys a few large ticket dry good hardware items but for the most part he carries a lot of consumable items because that is where the money is. Most people do not order fish food, medicine, livestock, filter media, substrate, fittings, thermometers, charcoal, and tanks/stands. So he carries a multitude of those items. And he is fione with that. He carries just enough items like protein skimmers, calcium reactors, refugiums, live rock, etc. to satisfy those customers who don't order off of the Internet. He keeps his livestock in prime condition, keeps the store clean, gives free advice even if it kills a sale, and will go out of his way to help most people. In fact, there are two LFS in this area that do business that way (I only had the discussion at one but both are equally good to deal with). They price their goods accordingly. They are very economical on their livestock, consumables, and tanks/stands. They are not as competitive on their dry goods, especially those that people usually only buy once. And for that reason, I make purchases at both places on a weekly basis and order my skimmers, heaters, lighting, etc. online. And I am DIY'ing my first calcium reactor. Maybe I am just a cheapskate DIY'er getting bad advice from other cheapskate DIY'ers here on reef central but I am having a good time and spending money at my LFS. I don't claim to be an expert, in fact I'm a newbie. But I have read a lot of posts by DIY'ers in here that have provided me some valuable information that has made the hobby much easier and saved me a lot of money. And if you read through these forums you will see that this is the most civil and courteous bunch of folks you will ever see online. They bend over backwards to help and make everyone feel welcome. You would have a much bigger impact and sway many more opinions and dollars if you took a more civil approach. In essence you just called almost everyone here a cheapskate and questioned their "so-called expertise". Remember, you catch more flies with honey than you do vinegar. I'm sure you have a lot more to offer than insults and chastising.