Why are LFS prices so high? - Page 3

sequential · #51 02/19/2006, 02:02 AM

phlipper84, sorry to engage in the off topic, but I wanted to point something out. Other than WalMart's advertised items, which aren't always great prices to begin with, WalMart is typically the same price or higher for like quality items as their competitors. Survey's of prices have found a significant percentage of WalMart products are higher priced than Target, KMart, and other competitors.

It's funny, but most people think WalMart, they automatically think low price. I can walk into Staples any day of the week and buy the same product cheaper than the same opened product on WalMart's clearance rack, especially the low valume computer electronics.

And don't get me started on their music. Never buy music from WalMart unless you prefer your music to be edited. You're literally paying retail RIAA prices for something that has non-musical gaps or alternate versions of songs. The average customer doesn't know this, but those who care don't make this mistake many times before learning.

Next time you go to WalMart, look at their prices on grocery items. You'll see that, aside from sale items and loss leaders, like candy, their prices are the same or higher than non-sale items at your local grocer. Name brand soda, unless it is on sale, is full retail frequently. Name brand soda is virtually always on sale at your local grocer, but WalMart sells its own brand and doesn't have the same pressure to move their small shelf space every day that a grocer does. Sam's is much better, but that's a warehouse club.

It's really amazing what marketing can do. I've met people who have purchased an item at WalMart and bragged to me about how little it cost, only to see it at Target the next day for a few dollars less without sale or coupons.

I was in marketing for six years. Anyone want to guess why I left?

coralights · #52 02/19/2006, 03:26 PM

Value vs price? hmmmm ..... service is an intangible yet extremely valuable part of what we pay for .... lack of service costs lots of money and lots of time which is also money .... yet we never measure this value until we need it ... and then it's too late in the case of buying cheap on-line ..... if more people factored in the convenience of shopping locally ..... this country would be a better place .... it's nice to shop locally where people know you, ask how you are doing, go out of their way to help you out in a pinch etc etc ... not just for fish ... but for anything!!

smcnally · #53 02/19/2006, 03:34 PM

Oh come on...How many LFS actually give anything more than a manufacturers warranty? I don't know one. I get the same warranty from an online store. People get let down just as often from local stores than from online stores. The funny thing is that I've bought more from my local stores than online. But, I'm not going to lie and say I get much more out of buying local. I've recieved incredible advice from online shops as well as local. I've had bad equipment from both, and both were just as easy to return the bad goods and get a replacement. And, although you cannot look at a fish from an online store, the more reputable ones have excellent return policys for ones that don't ship well. I don't know ONE local store out here that guarantees there livestock. Once you take it out of their store, you are on your own. I take that back. I know one store that would help me out if that happened...but that is one out of many.

dhnguyen · #54 02/19/2006, 03:48 PM

IMO if you want advices, the best place for that is from places like Reefcentral where you KNOW people aren't giving you advices to profit from it. This is the best place for information period.

I know that I can trust when I ask an opinion from someone on RC w/ experience about a piece of equipment, I know they not saying something just to sell me a unit.

Sm0kin · #55 02/19/2006, 05:48 PM

dhnguyen, 100% percent agree with you selling an item for commision or profit can change the truth about a products worth. Although there are great LFS stores so stereotyping all LFS is not fair or just just as stereotyping online stores is not right.

Stephany · #56 02/19/2006, 06:20 PM

I don't see how DIYers have a darn to do with why LFS prices are so high. Not at all.

Diyers = Knowledge is power
I'm starting to think that smcnally is pretty frickin' cool too.

To the original poster... it can be a number of variables.
Likely:
They don't buy in bulk compared to foster and smith, or larger companies therefore probably pay a higher amount.
Possibly:
They are getting them from distributors that charge them out the butt.
Unlikely, but sometimes:
They are evil money loving people trying to take you for everything you've got.

The above is just ime, though.

phlipper84 · #57 02/19/2006, 06:30 PM

Sorry don't buy that paying out the butt thing one bit. In any given area, fish stores deal with the same wholesalers. If they are going out of the local system, I can almost guarantee they are not going for more expensive costs. I mean if the rest of the stores in his vicinity are 10 bucks less, it is a matter of them perhaps not buying as much and you don't necessarily have the room to complain. However, I was in a local store today and the bulbs in question were 30 dollars. That is with two shipping costs added in, 1 to Phoenix, 1 to Tucson.

smcnally · #58 02/19/2006, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephany
I'm starting to think that smcnally is pretty frickin' cool too.

LOL...let's see how long that lasts!

dhnguyen · #59 02/19/2006, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sm0kin
dhnguyen, 100% percent agree with you selling an item for commision or profit can change the truth about a products worth. Although there are great LFS stores so stereotyping all LFS is not fair or just just as stereotyping online stores is not right.

Oh .. Don't misunderstand what I stated. I'm not saying that all LFS will give advices based purely whether or not they want to sell something to you. My point here is that I rely on RC for info more than my LFS.
We've all been there and we all know that not all LFS employees or owners even know anything about the fish husbandry nor anything in this hobby so you have to pretty much take what they say with a grain (or bucket) of salt so to speak

D.

aurorafish · #60 02/19/2006, 06:51 PM

3 pages and nobody ever tries to bargain with the lfs?? Smart lfs will take some $ vs no sale if you are nice and discuss intelligently with the owners, mine pretty much matches the online vendors or tells me how close he can come to their pricing, if its close I buy from him.

BarryF · #61 02/19/2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by coralights
Value vs price? hmmmm ..... service is an intangible yet extremely valuable part of what we pay for .... lack of service costs lots of money and lots of time which is also money .... yet we never measure this value until we need it ... and then it's too late in the case of buying cheap on-line ..... if more people factored in the convenience of shopping locally ..... this country would be a better place .... it's nice to shop locally where people know you, ask how you are doing, go out of their way to help you out in a pinch etc etc ... not just for fish ... but for anything!!

Hmm, $400 in my pocket or the friendship of an LFS owner/worker and $400 out of pocket (difference between LFS price and online price including shipping for an AB Aquamedic Spacelight).

That's a tough decision. There is no LFS out there that could possibly provide me with the knowledge of the internet. I don't chit-chat with LFS workers for the exact reasonings behind your posts. There is an expectation from LFS workers that if they spend a single iota of time with you, you're obligated to purchase something there. I get that vibe everywhere I go.

So, whenever I walk into an LFS, I politely tell anyone who asks, "No thank you, I'm just looking." Hopefully they don't mind bagging up my livestock without me purchasing their significantly overpriced dry-goods.

Joshthenosh · #62 02/19/2006, 07:25 PM

i think its just easier to buy on line some times, as they sell more m order more they get it cheaper, for instance a new lighting company has popped up on e bay. they been trading around 11 days and probably sold 100 lighitng units where in that time my LFs has sold 2.

Thats the diffrence

firefish2020 · #63 02/19/2006, 08:08 PM

You know if you ask a LFS, and let me clarify what I mean by LFS, I am talking about a specialty shop not a mega petshop, to give you a good price based on an add you see wherever, most of the time they will try. However if you come in throw down an add and demand that. " I can get this at DrFish&Such for X amount and I want you to match it." Yeh thats likely to get you nowhere fast. If you want a deal on merchandise ask for it, if you dont get it or think you wont get it just order it online.

Good LFS are going nowhere, they offer something you wont find online, experience and the ability to forge a one on one relationship with you to get you the system of your dreams. I have heard many LFS have outrageous prices and yes I have seen a few examples of this, but most have a reason for there prices. Most people judge LFS prices by all they see and that is online retailer prices. I can tell you that on big ticket items like say halide lighting systems your LFS is making a small profit on them unless they are marking them up 75% even at half cost we can not match adds I have sometimes seen in Fosters&Smith. On certain items the wholesale cost for us has been more than what you would find DrF&S everyday price and if they are running sale, forget about it

I spend hours with customers weekly trying to get them the system they have always wanted, my goal is not to sell them a product it is to give them a choice and provide answers to their questions. If we dont carry it or I can't get it for them I tell them to try on line. For those who say they could care less about their LFS and think supporting them is a bad thing, try calling up an online fish shop and asking them why your fish are dying or why your coral isnt coming out like it used to. I personally have ordered off line and had good experiences and bad just as with brick and mortar LFS but sometimes you need to talk to someone who can physically help you in person not virtually (at least not yet). Ever had an online shop let you borrow a UV sterilizer or a canister filter? No and you wont.

Quote:

So, whenever I walk into an LFS, I politely tell anyone who asks, "No thank you, I'm just looking."

Yes I have noticed a few individuals like this, they seem to think I should not talk to them because obviously I could care less about them or the hobby they have and I just want to sell them something. That may be true with some out there but don't judge us all by a few kids who could care less about you or your hobby. I personally founded the first reef club in our state to combat other LFS giving out meaningless information and to provide an open arena of discussion amongst fellow hobbyists, oh BTW that club is 100% free to this day and has helped uncounted hundreds of newbies to learn from others in the hobby. Just think before you respond some of us are not trying to pry your hard earned dollars from your hand, some of us may just want to talk to you about your success in the hobby.

Now as for the DIY rant,
What? thats just insane-we have many DIYers in our club and by no means are they "cheap". They modify skimmers and devices that most people would never attempt to tear apart after paying so much for them. DIYers are why you are hear, without them we would not have most of the devices that keep our animals alive today. Norbert Tunze ring a bell?

toto · #64 02/19/2006, 09:05 PM

As a LFS owner i would like to give some feedback on the price subject.
This is how it works....
LFS's have approx. 2 or 3 distributers to purchase their dry goods from. Some dist. get better prices from the manufacturers than others, depending on how much they buy. So, as an owner we scour the price books to find the best prices on the items we sell and purchase from the lowest priced dist.
Now, what you as consumers are seeing (or not seeing) is this...
the distributers are setting up web-sites and selling to you, the consumer, for the same price they sell to us, the retailer. And, most of the time they sell to you for LESS than what they sell to us for. We dont understand it either, but thats how it is.
So, understandably, to you it appears that the LFS is making a killing on what they DO sell. That is so untrue.
I'm not complaining (just so you know) i just wanted to explain the facts. All of the on-line stores, pet solutions, dr fosters, etc. are owned by the same people your LFS purchase from, and that is why you see the price difference. As owners of a LFS we have tried to figure out a way to "keep up" and try our best to do so. We are also consumers and understand saving a buck. Believe me it is a real problem for us too!! We see both sides. I guess i would like to see everyone win, but not sure that is possible. Hopefully i have helped to clear up the price issues. I would like to add one more thing if i could. If you do, which obviously most of you do, (which is fine btw) please have the courtesy to not rub it into your LFS. Not all LFS's are bad. There are alot of us out there who are into this hobby for the same reasons you are. WE LOVE IT!!

BurntOutReefer · #65 02/19/2006, 10:14 PM

True...not all LFS are bad,. Why are mail order cheaper then LFS...? Because they have agreements with the wholesaler to do something called drop ship....meaning the Drs F&S never even owned the inventory..you order, Drs.F&S email the ship to to the wholesaler, wholesaler applies labels, etc and ship to you....how do I know? because I have been in the distribution business for 20 years.......(BTW...just for you guys who keep clams...there is a food factory located in singapore that sells clams (deresa, etc) to the food world. I can buy them direct (avg size is 2~3")....$0.95 ~$1.25 per unit...minimum is $100.00 per order....I anit got the room....)...sorry went off track....
The only good thing that I can think off about a LFS is that they 1) have fish/stuff that you can look at as they feed.
I would NEVER buy hardware/hardgoods from a LFS....mail-order is cheaper........

toto · #66 02/19/2006, 10:32 PM

sorry your burnt out. also sorry to hear you would never support your lfs, you have obviously had some really bad experiences. i have to say though, that you wont be able to go into a fish store and see livestock eat if mail order has driven all of the LFS's out of business. not trying to argue, just trying to make a point.

BurntOutReefer · #67 02/19/2006, 11:23 PM

yes...but being in manufacturing/retail/distribution for 20 years....(NO OFFENSE TO ANY ONE).....the American public has a very compulsive nature and impluse purchase nature....i.e., must get it now!...thus B&M retail is safe for awhile....and I didnt say I dont support LFS....I just said I would never buy hardware....ummm....lets see.....$1.25 for a 3/4" elbow at LFS....$0.35 at HomeDepot.......
$500.00 for the new Floval at LFS.......
The point is .....the LFS needs to know where and what items they need to make loss-leaders, and what items are supposed to be at "MSRP". Live stock is not "MSRP". what is the most consumable item that a LFS has and ALL keepers of fish need?
Water......$0.79 per G for Catalina.(in my area). assume that you make the best water in town.....can you charge $1.20 per g...yes...would I pay that..? yes. I dont want to won a RO/DI system , go there the effort of mixing and measuring etc etc....
I want instant results....I want the water in my tank end of story.
so....heres a trend I predict at retail. LFS will start selling NSW at higher prices . They will sell scientific quality NSW at $1.50-$2.00 per G.....
why.....because there are buyers like me, who realize that (next to lights) water is really the only other factor that controls the quality of life in my little universe (my reef tank)....

sorry....long reply back...and IMO

BurntOutReefer · #68 02/19/2006, 11:27 PM

BTW...really good thread

D to the P · #69 02/19/2006, 11:57 PM

If you have a good lfs you should buy your stuff there and support them. Even if it means a couple extra bucks it is better than the store going out of business (which happens very very often) and leaving you have to find a new place where they service might suck, or the prices could be even worse. At the lfs I work at the owner puts an emphasis on giving good advice (he makes us read!!) and also becoming the customers friend. I have been invited over to peoples houses to see their aquarium and I do it, no because the boss wants us to be nice, it's because most of the people actually are my friends. While it may seem like lfs just want to rip you off for profit, there are some that really want you to be sucessful at aquarium keeping. After all if we help you be sucessfull you'll probably come back for more!

BurntOutReefer · #70 02/20/2006, 12:07 AM

Quote"After all if we help you be sucessfull you'll probably come back for more" end quote.
and thus, we are back to the main topic.........LFS's....friend or foe.

Slickdonkey · #71 02/20/2006, 01:06 AM

Hey, I like my LFS, but it all comes down to simple economics. If I can buy the same product 50% cheaper online, you can bet I'm going to do it. Sorry, but that's reality. I order lots of things online. Yes, there is some overhead and hassle if you need to return something, but in the end I think I come out ahead.

When it comes down to my hard-earned cash, I'm going to spend it in the most efficient manner possible. I'm a nice guy, but not so nice as to volunteer money out of my pocket when the same item can be ordered cheaper elsewhere.

My $0.02.

Fishie Nut · #72 02/20/2006, 01:11 AM

The more you look around the wider the price spread from lfs to lfs to online. I bought Kent Nano Reef A&B for 16.95 at the lfs and saw it online today for 8.95. Whew!!!

You just got to look around. :wave"

Fishie Nut · #73 02/20/2006, 01:12 AM

The more you look around the wider the price spread from lfs to lfs to online. I bought Kent Nano Reef A&B for 16.95 at the lfs and saw it online today for 8.95. Whew!!!

You just got to look around.

boodwah · #74 02/20/2006, 02:07 AM

Here is an example of LFS excessive markup: 12 Gallon Nano, not Deluxe, is $199 at the LFS. Dr. Foster and Smith sells it for $99. Identical unit. The Deluxe model is $249 at the LFS, $169 at Dr. Foster and Smith. What extra value can that extra $80-100 justify? If the tank leaks when I initially fill it, either one will take it back and replace it. After a week or so, both will tell me to file a warranty claim with the manufacturer. It seems like simple math to me. It costs $28 to ship it if I order. The sales tax here in TN is about 9%. For the basic 12 gallon the total will be $127 if I order, $217 if I buy local. Why can't my LFS just get it from DR Foster and Smith for $117, mark it up $25, sell it for $142, and keep the business local?
Why should the burden of keeping the businesses in business be on the customer rather than the business owners? Our economy is dynamic and those who refuse to change with the times are left behind. It happens every day. It sucks. But the reality of business is that big fish eat little fish. Always have, always will. The little fish that survive to become big fish are the ones that have adapted and learned how to avoid the big fish, live in harmony with the big fish, or form a symbiotic relationship with the big fish. No amount of pity has ever saved a little fish. Big fish have no pity.

toto · #75 02/20/2006, 02:29 AM

ok, lets say you own a LFS..you are in the same situation that we are in. Your dry goods are being sold to your customers (by wholesalers) at the same price you, as a retail store owner, can buy the product for. Still with me??
Now, you have a customer come in, quiz you about, let's say, a skimmer. You spend 30min answering all of his questions, giving him the pros and cons of each skimmer hes asking you about. He thanks you for your time and leaves.
The next week he comes back.....asking you questions about operating his NEW skimmer he just bought online because it was $20 bucks cheaper.
Whats your move??? Do you tell him to fly a kite??? and risk losing a possible customer for other products?
OR Do you tell him what he wants to know...let him use you like a doormat.(this by the way is the same guy that will use you over and over again for info and occasionally spend a buck or 2 on a can of food) which by the way will not keep your doors open. Whats you move?
2nd question - How is it that you have decided which product you would like to purchase???Ive read the online chat rooms, there is no way a person new in the hobby could understand 1/2 of what is being said. (although, some pretend they understand) what they really do is come ask us, the LFS. are you saying that you have NEVER gone to you LFS and asked their advise? of course you have. WE, the LFS are the showroom for all of the products you have ever considered buying. they may not be the exact same brands, etc, however, we have exposed you to them in some form. Are you saying that my time and knowledge are worth nothing?Would go to work for 8 hrs a day, and NOT get paid? Of course you wouldnt. Thats ABSURD!!
We are also consumers we DO understand the "save a buck" mentality. However, what we dont understand is why people in general feel that it is ok to USE local stores (i mean the mom and pop shops like hardware stores etc, not just LFS)for info, but make their purchases elsewhere??? Its frustrating!! Surely you can understand our dilemma? Can a store survive just giving advise? Should we charge for each question? $1 a question?$2 a question?
To mark...the guy that started this thread.... your a doctor right? How much do you charge for your time? Slickdonkey....your a software engineer....how much is your time worth?? Just trying to get you to see where im coming from.