I say, Good Job Teacher!! these kids nowadays are insane!

[rspar]

I use to be a real teachers advocate, now I think they're a bunch of controlling power hungry-primadonas generally speaking. What we really need is a parents advocate in our schools. The Principals and the school boards are there to protect the teachers.

[BarryF]

Originally posted by rspar
I use to be a real teachers advocate, now I think they're a bunch of controlling power hungry-primadonas generally speaking. What we really need is a parents advocate in our schools. The Principals and the school boards are there to protect the teachers.

IMO, that's not a fair assessment. While we may have an occurrence of a fruity teacher once in a while come up in the news, for the most part teachers do not have any power when it comes to discipline or control in the classroom. The students have all of the power and what's worse is that they know it.

Case in point. I used to teach in a very affluent high school in New Jersey before I left the teaching field to get my CPA. Did you know that I couldn't contact a parent without having the principal's OK first? Or, I couldn't discipline a student for talking out in class or acting like a monkey while I'm trying to teach? I couldn't hand out detentions because, "We value our extracurricular activities, and these students need to be there." Or, how about the time when a student tried to call his BROKER from my classroom telephone - that was a riot. Yet, this student said that the principal said he could and I couldn't stop him. This doesn't even take into account curriculum, but I assure you that's just as crazy. And it wasn't just me, all of the teachers were dealt with this way; the pay was pretty good, teacher-wise, so most of them just put up with the nonsense.

Needless to say, I didn't even finish out the school year when the principal said that this student had the right to call whomever he wanted whenever he wanted, even during my class time.

You argue that the principals are there to protect the teachers. I would argue that the principals are there to protect the students and most times, they take it too far. What we need are the parents to wake up and start getting involved in their children's lives. More importantly, we need to take the wool out from over the parent's eyes and let them see their children for how they really are, be it good, bad, or ugly.

This doesn't only take place in affluent schools either, as my fiance teaches in an urban district and has some great stories regarding [the lack of] discipline as well.

[GarSrtn]

Hmm. I think taping a student of any age is a bit far. I can recall a few teachers having taped mouths shut when I was in 3rd grade. Still, restraint on that level is wrong. If the student(s) were being disruptive enough to warrant physical restraint, the student(s) should have been ejected from the classroom. Poor call on the part of the teacher, though I'm not sure the teacher should have been arrested.

I agree with MWAJDA in that the U.S.A. has gone downhill since parents stopped beating their children. Really, the word should be disciplining not beating. Children of this generation are a wretchedly behaving lot who have no concept of respect, bondaries, or manners.

[crab0000]

GarSrtn,
What do you do if the child refuses to leave and is just sitting there screaming? We can't physically remove them, so do we just let them stay and get nothing done? It's funny how much responsibility we are putting on teachers, but I want to know when we are going to start holding parents accountable? Our school district took corporal punishment out of their handbook this year even though they told principals two years ago they couldn't paddle, it's a sad day. Now our worst punishment is expulsion. Wow what a terrible punishment. The kids get to sleep late and then play and watch T.V. all day. It would be different if the kids would get treated the way I would have if I got expelled. My dad would have had a list of chores so long I would have had to get up at 4:00 a.m. to get it done. The thing is parents never believe that their baby would do such a thing. Trust me, any child is capable of anything at any time, even my own. All this and I am only in my second year of teaching .
Steve

[GregDoug]

Yea, I guess I will have to change my opinion. I think we ought to start beating our kids again.. to keep them in line. Hell, while we are at it, I think we should beat our wives too. I have a prime example to offer. The other day, my wife tried to express her opinion the other day... what was that all about?
We need to go back to the way it was 50 years ago. We need not let women do anything but stay bare foot and pregnant, kids should be seen and not heard, and men should rule their home with an iron fist. The problem with our schools and our homes are that we let all those damn feminist and social rights advocates lie to us about women, children, and people of minority being equal to us white males. It only fair we can beat our kids and our wives, after all, they are just property.

[BarryF]

Originally posted by lisaandmikefamil
It only fair we can beat our kids and our wives, after all, they are just property.

< /soapbox >, right? Anyone else enjoying the slide down the slope?

[crab0000]

lisaandmikefamil,
May isuggest you go spend a week in any classroom in America. I think you will change your view on discipline in the schools.
Steve

[rspar]

Well my opinions based on earlier years. My kids are in Elementary, and what the parents want is really of no meaning in our schools. A couple years ago there was an issue with pay for the teachers here and all the parents myself included stirred up a real fuss and got a couple school board members replaced and a raise for the teachers. Since then it seems to me the teachers have thumbed there noses at us. With any difference of opinion the teachers are unwilling to compromise and the principals unwilling to go against them. There's a couple good ones but they're few and far between. Personally I think part of the problem is the link between higher education and pay the system has. Once a teacher starts getting multiple masters degrees they seem to get a higher than thou attitude. They forget they're teaching 3rd grade and that anyone certainly with a high school education and some patience can teach them. Crud I'd say better than 50% of what my kids learn is taught by my wife and I. The school just provides the structure.

High School is a whole different ball game. My kids won't be going to my local school. We're going to have to move when that comes along. I agree in the High Schools they've lost control and have no idea how to get it back. Partly because parents have lost control, and partly because the same mentality exists in the school that caused those kids to be out of control at home.


Next thread I'll solve world peace....

[rspar]

More on subject, that teachers aid is nuts. And is probably a prime example of a principal not willing to go against his/her teachers. How could that go on without the principals knowledge? And before this all started I'm sure that teacher had had some complaints from parents that were ignored.

[MWAJDA]

let me add that i would never beat my wife, or any other woman. let's not get stupid. and when i say beat your children, i'm really only talking about spanking on the butt, maybe the occasional open-hand slap to the face. i think, to be effective, this must be done since childhood. then, most likely your kid will be decent by the time he/she reaches high school. it's kinda weird to spank, say, a senior in high school, but the slapping should continue!

i know my discipline would not be abusive or unneccessary. and if ever the government tried to step in and take my kid away from me because i got 'caught' spanking or slapping my child, i would lose it. no governement has the right to tell me (as a being of the universe!) how to raise my kid. it's a different story if you're leaving scars and drawing blood. theres a fine line between discipline and abuse, but i think i know how to walk it. again, if the government ever took my child...... i don't want to say what i might do in case the FBI is reading this

[oceanarus]

2 words - private school

[BarryF]

Originally posted by rspar
Next thread I'll solve world peace....

Sweet!

[BarryF]

This is not an attack on you by any means, rspar, so please do not take it as such. I only bring up these points as alternative viewpoints in the discussion. I also want to say that I know that many teachers and school districts leave a good deal to be desired, so I understand where you are coming from. I've seen firsthand how the HUGE range of teaching ability/attitude varies in a single graduating class from a single college.

Originally posted by rspar
and what the parents want is really of no meaning in our schools.

The teachers have minimal input regarding what goes on in the school. Perhaps the administration will go through the motions of asking the teachers how they feel on a particular subject, but I assure you that the majority of the time the administration already has their minds made up prior to asking anyone else their opinion. This is partly due to the very involved process of creating a curriculum and meeting all of the standards.

It is also very difficult to take into account 30 differing opinions on how a teacher should run their classroom, let alone 500 differing opinions on how the curriculum should be developed and/or taught when the parents generally have no clue how governmental standards play a role in creating/teaching the curriculum.

Originally posted by rspar
Once a teacher starts getting multiple masters degrees they seem to get a higher than thou attitude. They forget they're teaching 3rd grade and that anyone certainly with a high school education and some patience can teach them.

Perhaps the attitude stems from the attitude they get... ie: that the college education they received is worthless because anyone with a high school education could do their job. If your boss or one of your evaluators gave you that remark on a review, I'm sure you wouldn't be thrilled. How about something like, "Well, [rspar], we've decided to forgo raises this year because the board's conclusion is that anyone with a high school education and some on-the-job training can do your job. Quite frankly, we don't know why you went to college."

Furthermore, once someone obtains a Master's degree in their field, I think it would be safe to assume that they have slightly more knowledge regarding their field than the average Joe. I would hope that having a Master's degree would also mean that the candidate is open to constructive criticism and dealing/learning with/from others. Unfortunately, many times pride and attitude keep individuals in ALL fields from accepting that they aren't the end-all be-all knowledgeable person in their field.

[rspar]

Unfortunately, many times pride and attitude keep individuals in ALL fields from accepting that they aren't the end-all be-all knowledgeable person in their field.

I'm glad you agree with me.

The teachers have minimal input regarding what goes on in the school.

In the classroom the administration has very little input.

It is also very difficult to take into account 30 differing opinions on how a teacher should run their classroom

It is the teachers job to teach the kids, but it is their parents responsibility. I expect that a teacher is open to the particular needs of a certain student. Certainly in elementary school. I could go on and on but I have to bail -- I shall return.


Live long and prosper

[reefjunkie3]

I did not read all the responses because I am sure quite a few are'nt worth reading. I have a child in 3rd grade and since she started school when she went to preschool I have given all the teachers my home phone number and have made sure they know if my child gives them any problem at all that I would like to know about it and I will correct her at home.I as a parent will not tolerate my child not behaving at school.
As a result of me being this way with my child she respects the teachers as she does me at home.I had the usual start of the year conference with her teacher this year and she says she is a model student,always says please and thank you and addresses all with sir or maam,these are things I have taught her and they carry over to her everyday life.
Now if my child was misbehaving I would NOT TOLERATE her being taped to anything,no way in HELL!!!! Just could'nt do it,the parents are responceable with the way their child acts in school.That is the main problem the parents will not take responceability for their childerns actions in school,and I for the life of me can't figure out why.Being parents is a life long committment and at times is a complete pain in the booty.But I do not stop being the parent no matter what.
My 8 year old told me today "Thank You Dad for caring for me and loving me". I asked why she said that.She said lots of her friends do not have that love at home and they think she is weird because she gets the support of her parents at home.See where this is going? It is the parents job,it is the teacher to try and teach.But how do you teach a child that has no structure at home and the parents blame the school and the teacher? That's BULLSHI$$! IT STARTS AT HOME!!! Just my .02

[jimwat]

Rspar said
And is probably a prime example of a principal not willing to go against his/her teachers. How could that go on without the principals knowledge? And before this all started I'm sure that teacher had had some complaints from parents that were ignored

If the principal knew this was going on and turned a blind eye to it (which is very likely), it is not for wanting to help the teacher. When something like this is brought to light, the principal is trying to cover his/her own a$$ by acting like they did not know. Protecting the teacher is a sad by-product of this behavior.

BarryF said
the college education they received is worthless because anyone with a high school education could do their job

My experience with teachers is that most have the "gift" of teaching or they do not. Years of school can help prepare teachers with the "gift" by providing tools for them to do what comes natural. The rest either quit, become administrators, or end up trying to control their class by taping them up . Also, the two biggest reasons that a teacher (especially non-specialized teachers) gets an advanced degree is to increase their pay or in preparation for a non-teaching job (e.g. administrative).

(Jumping on my soapbox)
The biggest problem with the educational system is the quality of the teachers in it. A couple of points to ponder:
- Teaching is a tough profession, the best and the brightest would be teachers are not going work for peanuts. Result: smaller pool of "gifted" teachers.
- Because of the teaching shortage, most of the Universities (especially state run) have lowered the requirements to get an educational degree to the point where it is about the easiest degree to obtain (e.g. the year my wife graduated from UCF, the math requirement for a Special Education Degree was Introduction to College Algebra). Result: Teachers are less educated.

One other thing that may (or may not) have been a factor in this latest incident - here in Florida it has been recently mandated that the class room size (student/teacher ratio) be reduced. This is to "help" the quality of education. Where did all of these teachers come from to fulfill this mandate? Yep, the shallow end of the teaching pool. Last years "Throw-backs" are now in the classroom. I'm not sure I understand how this "helps" the quality of education.
(Jumping off of soapbox)

[crab0000]

Originally posted by jimwat
(e.g. the year my wife graduated from UCF, the math requirement for a Special Education Degree was Introduction to College Algebra). Result: Teachers are less educated

And why would the SPED teacher need to know more math? If the kid can do higher math they sure as heck wouldn't be served in SPED for math. JMO. BTW the University I graduated from is recognized as having one of the hardest degree programs in the state in education. They had to cut several classes from the requirements so people could graduate in four years. Because before hand it was taking at least four and a half years to graduate. Sometimes you have to make compromises.
Steve

[jimwat]

And why would the SPED teacher need to know more math? If the kid can do higher math they sure as heck wouldn't be served in SPED for math. JMO

This is the standard argument for any degree. Everyone has to take classes (especially in the first 2 years) that may have little or nothing to do with what they will actually be doing in their job. My point is that academic requirements for an educational degree is comparatively lower than most other degrees. My Wife did not have any "weed-out" classes, and was not required to take any advanced Math, English, or Science. The toughest part of her education was in her last year when she had to intern, and this was only because she had to carry a full load of classes (to graduate on time). I am told this is often the "trial-by-fire" part of the Education Degree, as many of the students do not learn until their 4th year that they have no natural teaching abilities and are completely unsuited to go into this line of work (which, unfortunately, only stops SOME of them from completing their degree). I once heard an interesting statistic for SPED graduates - 1/3 never teach, another 1/3 quit before they reach their 4th year.

Anyway, there are many fine teachers whom I admire for their dedication and ability to what very few can do well. Often this job is done with very little recognition, support, or compensation. I truly believe that the best, most gifted teachers are only there for the kids they teach (as they could easily be making better money, with less stress somewhere else). But, I think it is very sad that there are also so many "bad" teachers because of a University system that spits them out, a school system that hires them, and a political environment within the school system that allows them stay (unchecked until we hear about it in the news).

[BryanJ]

MWAJDA

Do you even have children of your own?

[BarryF]

Originally posted by jimwat
(Jumping on my soapbox)
The biggest problem with the educational system is the quality of the teachers in it. A couple of points to ponder:
- Teaching is a tough profession, the best and the brightest would be teachers are not going work for peanuts. Result: smaller pool of "gifted" teachers.
- Because of the teaching shortage, most of the Universities (especially state run) have lowered the requirements to get an educational degree to the point where it is about the easiest degree to obtain (e.g. the year my wife graduated from UCF, the math requirement for a Special Education Degree was Introduction to College Algebra). Result: Teachers are less educated.

You and I are in complete agreement, Jim. I've often said exactly the same thing to people who can't understand why today's teaching expectations aren't being met.

[thrlride]

I don't believe it lies totally on the quality of teachers. You can have the best teacher placed in a classroom with the worst kids and nothing will get taught. I think the teachers need some more power. Not 'taping them to the wall' power but the power to punish with expulsion or whatever. Parents need to step up too though. This society blames everyone else, people need to take responsibility!

I don't think MWAJDA has his own children especially since he said that hitting them across the face open-handed is okay. I'm not against spanking or slapping the hand but much more than that is too much.

[crab0000]

Hey thrlride, didn't you know the word responsibility is a dirty word in our culture now?
Steve

[thrlride]

Did I say responsibility? I can't believe I said that! The mods can remove that dirty word if they choose. It's probably in the terms of usage somewhere that it isn't allowed...

[jimwat]

thrlride said
You can have the best teacher placed in a classroom with the worst kids and nothing will get taught.

You take the worst kids out of all of the classrooms and put them into one room...they call this Special Education. I have no idea how Special Ed. teachers get anything done...but they do. It does take a very special person to do this type of work. From what I have witnessed the person must be very organized, have good behavioral managment skills, be able to command the right combination of praise and firmness, and lots and lots (and lots...) of patients (hats off to crab ). Unfortunately, only some of this can be taught.

I do know that Sp. Ed. teachers are required to take behavioral management courses. However, regular education teachers often do NOT get this type of training. So, when you have kid(s) in a regular classroom that are behavior problems but are not classified as "special needs" the regular ed. teacher is unprepared to deal them, which can definately make it difficult to teach. A real threat of punishment would be helpful, but I think it would also be a good idea to require regular ed. teachers to get SOME behavioral management training.

[MWAJDA]

Originally posted by jimwat:

"which can definately make it difficult to teach"



.......... i'm only offering help here and furthering the cause of spelling everywhere! (smarty pants)!!
try: "definitely" with an 'I' .....always with an I !!!!