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  #51  
Old 08/16/2006, 10:24 PM
antonsemrad antonsemrad is offline
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Am I wrong to think that "detritus" rotting in the sand (without oxygen) is why these thing work?
  #52  
Old 08/16/2006, 10:36 PM
luckybaker4 luckybaker4 is offline
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Yes, we are creating a spot for anarobic denitrication to occour, not for detrious to break down.

A RDSB is NOT the same as a DSB. In a DSB, the critters help to break down the detrious, in a RDSB, it will be free of critters, just plain sand.
  #53  
Old 08/17/2006, 02:24 AM
antonsemrad antonsemrad is offline
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I stand corrected.

For the record, what exactly happens in a dsb?

Exactly what role do critters play in this process?

What role do bacteria play in hypoxic environments?

What role do bacteria play in anaerobic environments?

What do these bacteria feed on?

What exactly happens to detritus (in a reef tank) that is not mechanically removed? (or eaten)

What is the advantage of a RDSB over a DSB?

I apologize for the rhetoric. It seems that I am unqualifed to comment.
  #54  
Old 08/20/2006, 10:54 AM
percula99 percula99 is offline
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I have read this entire thread through, and boy what a read. But well worth it. have gone ahead and started my RDSB and chose to use aragonite instead of regular sand, Partly for ease of mind, and partly because I could not be assured that the sand up here in Canada was totally safe. Now, I have a 180 tank and I bought 80 pound of aragonite hoping it would be enough. It isn't. I need another 40 pounds at least. The cost is mounting. A friend of mine told me white biomix is safe for tank use. Someone earlier in this thread was talking about mixing different types of sand. Can anyone tell me if I can use the Biomix at the bottom, and use the aragonite on top. Would this work?
  #55  
Old 08/20/2006, 02:53 PM
Spuds725 Spuds725 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by antonsemrad
I stand corrected.

1. For the record, what exactly happens in a dsb?

2. Exactly what role do critters play in this process?

3. What role do bacteria play in hypoxic environments?

4. What role do bacteria play in anaerobic environments?

5. What do these bacteria feed on?

6. What exactly happens to detritus (in a reef tank) that is not mechanically removed? (or eaten)

7. What is the advantage of a RDSB over a DSB?

Numbered your questions for my convenience

1. Lots of things-- but what we want is denitrification (removal of nitrates)

2. They consume detritus (uneaten food and poop)-- utilize it and break it down further-- some say they help slowly stir the sand also-- not sure if this helps or not...

3 & 4 I don't feel knowledgeable enough about the difference to comment with confidence-- from what I understand though hypoxic is low oxygen, anerobic is no oxygen envrionments... from what I've read (in this thread)-- denitrifying bacteria live in hypoxic areas... the bacteria consume nitrate (NO3) and convert it to nitrogen and oxygen gas.

5 Nitrate.. (see above)

6. It slowly disolves or is eaten-- alot of it becomes ammonia, which nitrfying bacteria convert to nitrite, and other nitrifying bacteria convert to nitrate... hopefully alot of this disolved material is skimmed out... a skimmer is designed to remove DOCs (disolved organic compounds)

7. Advantages of RDSB were detailed early on in the original thread.... mainly:
+ it is outside the tank so it doesn't take up any of your tanks volume (a 6" DSB in a 22" tank is using over 25% of your tank)
+ there is some concern about DSBs becoming heavily polluted and "crashing"-- RDSBs are tried to kept free of detritus and critters too keep this from occuring.
+ They are easily replaced if there are problems... some people have even advocated running a couple in series and changing out one per year...
+ almost any sand of the proper grain size can be used... doesn't have to be the pretty white sand many want to see in their tanks...
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  #56  
Old 08/21/2006, 02:46 AM
fishpoop fishpoop is offline
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What about putting a dinner plate or a 1-3 inch deep tupperware like container upsidedown in the bottom of the bucket as a plenum..... Thoughts?
  #57  
Old 08/21/2006, 05:25 AM
fishtk75 fishtk75 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by antonsemrad
I stand corrected.

For the record, what exactly happens in a dsb?

Exactly what role do critters play in this process?

What role do bacteria play in hypoxic environments?

What role do bacteria play in anaerobic environments?

What do these bacteria feed on?

What exactly happens to detritus (in a reef tank) that is not mechanically removed? (or eaten)

What is the advantage of a RDSB over a DSB?

I apologize for the rhetoric. It seems that I am unqualifed to comment.
Here is the first post of two thread that Anthony Calfo said:
it is a modest strategy and dependant on bioload of course. But so cheap to employ, and easy to remove if you don't like it.

My LFS finally tried this with a 55 gall tank full (nearly to the top) of sand with a good stream of water traversing the length of the tank. It was staggering how fast it reduced nitrates on a nearly 2K gallon system.

A 5 gallon bucket with a 60lb bag of sand filling it can do similar/remarkable work on say a 90-120 gallon tank. A larger plastic garbage can (kitchen size... 20 gall or so) with a couple hundred lbs of sand, etc.

The goal here is denitrification and buffering (if using aragonite).

There are not many other benefits... and not many risks either. Unlit and with a strong stream of water over it, its a fairly brainless application Cover it and keep it dark... there is little to maintenance to speak of for it. You can imagine that with the good water flow (key) or even mechanically prefiltered water... there is no way for this to practically become a nutrient sink, as the small fast volume of water cruising over it do not allow the settling/sinking of much solid matter over time.


You need to go back to the first last thread and you will see the same questions and answers for this RDSB.
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  #58  
Old 08/21/2006, 08:38 AM
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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Ok week one report.

Nitrates were at 50 this week so I did a water change and they are now at 30. Still no effects from the RDBS as of yet.

I was wondering one thing though. Since my water must first go through the carbon/phosgard reactor, its gets pretty slow(100ish gph) I wasnt worried about that since the reactor will screen out detritus, but is that speed ok for the denitrification?
  #59  
Old 08/22/2006, 05:41 AM
fishtk75 fishtk75 is offline
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Here is for first tread that was on sand and I found:

http://www.crabstreetjournal.com/pro...lplaysand.html
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  #60  
Old 08/22/2006, 01:40 PM
thriceanangel thriceanangel is offline
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ARRGH! I had Nitrates in the 80's, and one month after the RDSB they are... in the 80's. I am going crazy! I am about to tear it down and start all over! Am I just too impatient? I am using a large DSB, it is 20"x20" with about 8" deep sand. This for a 55 gallon. HELP!
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  #61  
Old 08/22/2006, 03:19 PM
CW from the OC CW from the OC is offline
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I recall posts that indicated that the levels started dropping after 4 weeks.

You may also be producing nitrate faster than the DSB can process it.

Either way, give it more time.
  #62  
Old 08/22/2006, 03:46 PM
thriceanangel thriceanangel is offline
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I can't for the life of me figure out where they are coming from! RO/DI water, light feeding, clean or no mechanical filters, tons of cheato, light bio load- 1 yellow tang, and 3 chromis, couple snails, crabs, and 2 conchs. Nothing special.
  #63  
Old 08/22/2006, 08:38 PM
bspete bspete is offline
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Thrice,
Have you verified the results with a couple different test kits? Perhaps your test kit is giving you a bad read.

Just a thought
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  #64  
Old 08/23/2006, 07:48 AM
thriceanangel thriceanangel is offline
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I haven't but perhaps I should. But it does register 0 in other tests (friends reef tank, ro water, tap water)
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  #65  
Old 08/28/2006, 02:35 AM
LRS078 LRS078 is offline
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You want nothing more than the anaerobic bacteria and anoxic bacteria and SAND in the RDSB. Anything further and it can turn into a fug factory. Prefilter the water and keep the flow low enough as not to disturb the sand. Also seems to help if you use a bulkhead to drain that is at least 25% bigger than the input but that is personal taste.

Update: Installed the RDSB on my 220 system on 8/18/06 in a 15 or so gallon rubbermaid. Saw some minor bulging in the rubbermaid when loaded and reinforced with 1/4" x 3' zip ties on all 3 axis. As of last night had to take the system down as the rubbermaid was bulging around the zip ties grossly and I could not count on its structural integrity. I want something bigger than a salt bucket but it NEEDS to be strong and/or cylindrical. I don't have the stuff to drill glass so making a sacrificial RDSB out of a 20 high is out. I now don't trust anything that isn't BURLY or isn't cylindrical. May have to function test a draining a drilled/bulkheaded cylindrical trashcan next to the tank. Will update as events unfold.

As always, input is more than welcome....
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  #66  
Old 08/28/2006, 02:39 AM
LRS078 LRS078 is offline
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I can confirm 100% that nitrate comes from tapwater or RO/DI and NOT from Instant Ocean salt mix. I always get identical readings on tapwater or RO/DI premix/post mix per salifert and tetra nitrate test kits.

thriceanangel, check through your tank and setup for areas of fug collection, dirty bioballs, or even a dead snail. You'd be shocked how much a tiny snail can screw your nitrates.
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  #67  
Old 08/28/2006, 08:39 AM
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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Week two report

Bucket still up and running with the phos/carbon reactor prefilter at about 100 gph.

Nitrates holding steady at about 30 still.

LRS078 - look at getting a brute container...much more heavy duty and the only things really good for holding water. Either that or go with a bucket daisy chain.
  #68  
Old 08/28/2006, 03:06 PM
Spuds725 Spuds725 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LRS078
..... I don't have the stuff to drill glass so making a sacrificial RDSB out of a 20 high is out......

As always, input is more than welcome....
You should reconsider doing it yourself...

My only training was this thread..

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=603816

It really is as easy as its shown (took me about 3 minutes to drill through the glass)... I drilled one hole on a 10 gallon tank for practice and then drilled a 45mm hole (1" bulkhead) on a 29 gallon tank for use as a gravity returned fuge....

I used a garden hose spraying over the glass rather then the water dam shown in the thread.

my hole saw was only $6.20 (shipped to my door)
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  #69  
Old 08/28/2006, 03:27 PM
LRS078 LRS078 is offline
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I was digging through fishy equipment storage and came accross a CPR overflow box I forgot I had. Now I shouldn't have to drill.... Although very good resource for drilling....

Then I got thinking, what if I used a 30 or 20 high as a fuge (w' the overflow) then did a salt bucket to back up the fuge's DSB. Flow would go as follows: ~500 gph powerhead runs from sump up to 20 high fuge, CPR overflows into Instant Ocean RDSB, drains back into sump. That way I can get fuge and RDSB together. I can also switch out salt buckets over time while keeping the fuge.

Thoughts?
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  #70  
Old 09/02/2006, 10:38 AM
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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week 3 update

Did monthly stuff today, and changed/cleaned the carbon reactor which increased flow through the bucket by about 2x so that should help.

Nitrates are still holding steady in the 20-30 range and no rising whic is good so I will do another water change tomarrow to bring them down again.

Hope this thing starts to kick in soon so I can start doing some sweet SPS
  #71  
Old 09/02/2006, 01:52 PM
LRS078 LRS078 is offline
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Scraped the dual setup: went with a 25 high 80% full of sand, going to pile some chaeto on top of that. Using overflow box w' 500gph powerhead and a spraybar mod. No dust, plenty of flow, and I can plop two faded single strip lights on to grow some chaeto for a bit extra.... Started it yesterday, will update results....
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  #72  
Old 09/02/2006, 10:08 PM
nyvp nyvp is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by LRS078
Scraped the dual setup: went with a 25 high 80% full of sand, going to pile some chaeto on top of that.

>>>> I dont think you want to do that. From what Ive heard cheato needs more flow that the rdsb.

Using overflow box w' 500gph powerhead and a spraybar mod. No dust, plenty of flow, and I can plop two faded single strip lights on to grow some chaeto for a bit extra.... Started it yesterday, will update results....
  #73  
Old 09/09/2006, 11:15 AM
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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Week 4 update

Nitrates still holding steady in the 20-30 range.

Still waiting for some results.....
  #74  
Old 09/11/2006, 07:36 AM
thriceanangel thriceanangel is offline
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OK. I took out all the rock, I shook all the crap out of it, I blasted it with a powerhead and restacked it, I removed all substrate and now am bare bottom. I did a 50% water change. AND I had to redo the DSB because of a leak. But the nitrates were up to 80, and now are down to 20ppm, and holding there for the past 2 weeks. I am hoping that with the redone rdsb, and the fact that there is NO PLACE where nitrates can hide out, when the rdsb kick in, I hope I will be nitrate free. Hope in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills up faster... Here's to hope!
  #75  
Old 09/11/2006, 11:39 AM
percula99 percula99 is offline
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Better late than never. I installed my RDSB August 12th with 80 lbs of Aragomax sand in a 15 gallon rubbermaid container. I added 40 lbs more on August 29th which brought me to a depth of 9 inches. On Sept. 1st my nitrates were still at 40. Had been at 50 before installing the bed. I did a water change that day, and a couple of days later the nitrates were at 30. Most likely because of the water change I thought. But yesterday they read between 5-10. Now that is an improvement. plus, since I started the RDSB, I bought a Copperband to add to my already substantial fish load. I have gone from feeding three cubes a day to five. So, increased feeding and I get lower nitrates. I think it is indeed working out. I will test again next weekend to see where the nitrates are. I am hoping to get close to a 0 reading at that time.
 

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