unexplainable hair algae bloom

Reeferhead · #1 02/12/2007, 06:25 PM

I came home after spending a week at Ft Benning to a very bad hair algae bloom. Their were a couple of small patches before I left but now its out of control.

PH 8.0-8.2 pinpoint meter
SG 1.024
temp 80
Alk 11 DKH Salifert
Cal 400 Salifert
Nitrate 0 Salifert
Phosphate 0 Salifert

I've been only feeding the tank 2 times a week if that for the past 3 months but the HA is still on the rise.

I have started doing larger water changes, 25% a week rather that my usual 10%

I've tried snails, hermits, emeralds, even a sea hare.

Give me some other causes to HA algae other than the usual high nitrate and phosphate.

Thanks, Nick

chadfarmer · #2 02/12/2007, 06:29 PM

lighting can cause algea also

JxMetal · #3 02/12/2007, 06:33 PM

old lighting definitely.

chadfarmer · #4 02/12/2007, 06:42 PM

what is the tds of the water you are using

your phosphates show a 0 because it is being used up by the algea and also the Nitrate

Reeferhead · #5 02/12/2007, 11:08 PM

Bulbs are about 3 months old

TDS is 1-2 ppm

Reeferhead · #6 02/12/2007, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chadfarmer
what is the tds of the water you are using

your phosphates show a 0 because it is being used up by the algea and also the Nitrate

yeah, but my cheato growth in my fuge is decreasing so this HA must be out competing it.

sirreal63 · #7 02/12/2007, 11:20 PM

Manual removal time, give the chaeto a chance to do the outcompeting. Pluck as much as you can, we all get a little of it, Ihave mine, I actually dosed sugar for a few weeks and it helps a lot.

Reggae Fish · #8 02/12/2007, 11:33 PM

I know I'm new so my thoughts may be completly wrong but what about flow? Wouldn't the lack of flow or dead spots cause issues?

Mr.Firemouth · #9 02/13/2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Manual removal time, give the chaeto a chance to do the outcompeting. Pluck as much as you can, we all get a little of it, Ihave mine, I actually dosed sugar for a few weeks and it helps a lot.

Dosing carbon sources does things water changes and other equipment cant. Our tanks are Carbon Limited.Dosing sugar or vinegar will adjust the C:N: P ratio. This feeds the bacs, which yes...lowers trates and po4...but it also adds bacs to the water which in turn feeds many many things in the tank including the corals....SPS included. Many successful tanks that dont dose C already have a darn good C:N: P ratio. IMO this ratio can also partly explain tanks that fail for no reason.

I would run an iron based phosphate resin on your system.
I would also agree that you need to manually remove the hair algae. Use a stiff tooth brush and siphon hose.

I would also run activated carbon if you are not already. One bag of Chemi-pure will be enough.

The fuel for the HA could easily be stored within the substrates of rock or gravel the HA is growing on. These phosphates will be low enough not to be seen on a test kit but high enough for the HA to grow.

LMK what the situation is after 10 days of the resins/carbon being used in the system. Also, change the initial resins/carbon after being used for 2 weeks and replace with new. The first set will exhaust to saturation quickly.

Reeferhead · #10 02/13/2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Firemouth
Dosing carbon sources does things water changes and other equipment cant. Our tanks are Carbon Limited.Dosing sugar or vinegar will adjust the C:N: P ratio. This feeds the bacs, which yes...lowers trates and po4...but it also adds bacs to the water which in turn feeds many many things in the tank including the corals....SPS included. Many successful tanks that dont dose C already have a darn good C:N: P ratio. IMO this ratio can also partly explain tanks that fail for no reason.

I would run an iron based phosphate resin on your system.
I would also agree that you need to manually remove the hair algae. Use a stiff tooth brush and siphon hose.

I would also run activated carbon if you are not already. One bag of Chemi-pure will be enough.

The fuel for the HA could easily be stored within the substrates of rock or gravel the HA is growing on. These phosphates will be low enough not to be seen on a test kit but high enough for the HA to grow.

LMK what the situation is after 10 days of the resins/carbon being used in the system. Also, change the initial resins/carbon after being used for 2 weeks and replace with new. The first set will exhaust to saturation quickly.

I've been running Kent reef carbon since I started the tank (about a year ago) and phosar since I started getting small HA problems a few months ago. The HA growth has increased since adding phosar and dispite the decrease in feeding.

I suspect that low flow and dead spots may be an issue. I estimate my flow at about 30x with the combination of my return pump and closed loop. I would prefer to have more.

I blow off all my rocks and corals with a powerhead before each water change to prevent build up.

I failed to mention earlier that I have also been having trouble with my zoanthids staying closed and some colonies dying back. I have never seen a nudi despite countless dips. I'm now in the process off removing all off the zoas from my tank to quarantine.

Mr.Firemouth · #11 02/13/2007, 03:33 PM

Are you using a DI resin after your RO unit?
Sometimes RO will allow trace elements and heavy metals into the system.

You don't say how often you change your media. I change mine every 3 weeks. I use 150g of phosphate remover and 1 pouch of Chemi-pure. I also use 1 Poly-Pad by Poly Bio Marine.

It might be the resins need to be changed more or that you need a new source for water. If you are doing everything right you shouldn't have the issue with the zoas.

Reeferhead · #12 03/07/2007, 04:50 PM

Unfortunately the HA is still going strong.

I've increased my flow by adding two 600 gph Koralias, but I've ditched my Mag 12 close loop so it maybe a wash. I changed the the bulb in my fuge back to a 10k PC rather than the 6500k I was using for a time. I think the cheato actually grew better under the 10k. I also swapped out the sand in one of the deep sand bed compartments in my sump. I'll change out the other DSB compartment in a couple months. I've also removed the filter sock I've running since starting the tank. I was using it from the beginning to prevent microbubbles however my plumbing has finally slimed up to the point where its unnessacery. I've continued weekly 25% water changes while manually removing as much HA as possible and blowing detritus of the LR with a powerhead. I've also suspended use of the Phosar. In reality I think I was using to much and my zoas were taking a hit because of it. I never saw a decrease in HA or green slime algae since using it. I have also removed most of my zoas, fresh water dipped them, and place them in a quarntine tank under lower light, additional actinic, and moderate flow. Many of them seem to be recovering

I plan on redesigning my skimmer in the future to make it more efficient. I also may rearrange my aquascaping to make it more open, alleviate dead spots, and allow me to vacuum the shallow sand bed. To increase flow I plan on rerunning my return line to one output rather than two and then adding a enductor.

Besides the zoa trouble I've also had a pink milli RTN and I lost my seven year old GS maroon clown

. Seven years is along time for any fish but I think I may have malnourished him trying to decrease nutrients in my tank. He never got skinny by any means but I think going from 4-5 feedings a week to 1-2 may have worn on him. I'm now feeding the tank 2-3 times a week. I think my ricordea and other shrooms were also suffering from the decreased feedings.

The only thing I've seen eat the HA is my Florida Queen Conch. I plan on buying some more and also some Trochus snails.

I believe the real culprit keeping the HA going is a lack of flow and detritus allowed to settle in dead spots and live rock crevices. Also I don't believe my skimmer is performing efficiently enough. I think it was designed poorly (by me

) and I will most likely reconstruct the whole thing.

I also have this nagging suspicion that the whole problem was started by using too much Phosar. All my HA and zoanthid issues oddly enough coincide with using the stuff. It may have reduced my phosphates but I think it caused a dieback of other organisms (particularly zoas) increasing available nitrogen, the true limiting nutrient in marine systems.

I'm going to try and get some pics taken of this mess and post them so I look back one day at how little I've learned about reefkeeping even after all these years.

Thanks everyone for you help so far

Mr. Firemouth:
I do use RODI water. As stated earlier my TDS is 1-2 ppm

Sirreal:
I've been researching carbon dosing and my give it a shot in the near future

Shooter7 · #13 03/07/2007, 05:39 PM

Interesting read, as I've been having a bit of an algae problem myself. I have decreased my feedings as well, but it is something to watch regarding your story of your fish you lost, so I'll be keeping a closer eye on how mine are doing. I also made my own food from using mainly formula one flake before. I tried using my Phosar in a canister filter that I kept cleaned out well, but I don't think it was getting full contact with the water, so I recently got a phosban reactor. I can say that since installing the reactor, cutting back on feeding and then using my own food, and setting my skimmer to run wetter, I cannot claim a victory on this algae just yet, but there are several areas of it that are turning brown now from the bright green color it was. Most of my zoas are actually looking awesome now that I'm running the reactor. My flow is decent, could have more, but it's decent. I believe it comes out to more than 30x turnover. My stuff is a rather tenacious shorter bright green algae that in many areas doesn't want to give up its grip when you pull on it. Other areas of smaller, loose rocks you can just simply roll it up like sod. It's growing only on the rocks, not the sand or the glass or the pumps, just the rocks. I'm hoping with running the reactor and the other steps I've taken, that I will beat mine eventually. I'm also looking at possibly getting a more powerful skimmer and adding some flow. Through all of this, my corals, even my SPS frags, have been looking great...they just have an ugly green background around some of them. Good luck to you, I feel the pain.

Reeferhead · #14 03/07/2007, 06:23 PM

I've never used Phosban or Rowaphos before. I tried Phosar because its a pelleted form and supposedly it doesn't clump therefor it doesn't need a reactor. I started will a couple tbs, in a bag, in a sump baffle. When the HA kept growing I tried using more, and more, and more. Eventually in all my wisdom I decided it wasn't getting enough flow so I placed it in my filter sock. I later read this is a very bad idea. The turbulent pounding it received caused it to break apart and left a fair amount of rust colored dust layering my fuge.

I'm sure the Phosar isn't the sole cause of my problems (it may not have anything to due with it) but I've always been very hesitant about using such products and I think I was looking for a quick fix to a complicated problem and got carried away. Now I'm trying to slow down and work on the basics.

The HA I'm dealing with is fairly fluffy and grows only on the live rock. It's very difficult to siphon or brush off. I was dealing with bryopsis in my attached frag tank. Luckily, it never migrated to the main tank. I grew tired of fighting it so I drained the tank completely, cleaned off the frags as best as possible and placed them in a newly setup quarantine tank. I'm hoping that the change in venue will help kill off the bryopsis. If nothing else its out of my main system.

JxMetal · #15 03/07/2007, 06:32 PM

Got room in there for an angel or tang?

Shooter7 · #16 03/07/2007, 07:00 PM

My Phosar didn't "clump", but I just don't think it was getting the full coverage flow it's getting now in the reactor. All I know is since starting the reactor up, I now have brown spots in several places where the algae is obviously dying off, and the rest of it is fading in color. I'm getting just a slow rolling of the Phosar in the reactor and I think I'm getting pretty good coverage that way. Here's a pic of my algae from a little over a month or so ago:

As far as the tang or angel goes, I have both a large foxface and a scopas in my tank that are obviously eating it - based on the fact that their bellies always look full - but they are coming nowhere near helping get rid of it. I'd need 20 foxfaces in there.

JxMetal · #17 03/07/2007, 07:09 PM

sea hare?

Shooter7 · #18 03/07/2007, 07:10 PM

Got one from GWA a few weeks ago. Put him in there and he cleared off about a 2x2 inch patch of the stuff....then never saw him again. Have no idea where he went to or what he's doing, but he sure isn't working on any of the visible algae.

JxMetal · #19 03/07/2007, 07:13 PM

Feed just once a week. The foxface and scopas should be able to take care of it all then. and your other fish should be able to survive with no problem.

Shooter7 · #20 03/07/2007, 07:16 PM

I'll let you tell them that. The anthias look at me like I'm severely abusing them when I'm an hour later than usual with feeding.

JxMetal · #21 03/07/2007, 07:20 PM

well, that was the last idea i had. Maybe 2 times a week?

Schplitter · #22 03/07/2007, 08:14 PM

I'm surprised that your foxface is not taking care of the algae. I had a gigantic bloom of HA about 2 months into the system. It took the foxface about 3 weeks to eat all of it. ... I would look into your TDS from the RO. Another thing to do would be to cut the lighting down to 5 or 6 hours a day...

Good luck

geoxman · #23 03/07/2007, 08:30 PM

If you want my input I would say increase the feedings 2-5 fold. I have never had HA and I feed the tank a ton, about 20 times what you do. If you have enough LR and skimmer power your system will adapt. JMHO
Feed more!
read the whole thread pretty interesting.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20086-9-1.aspx
good luck!

Reeferhead · #24 03/07/2007, 08:55 PM

My tank is too small for any tangs or a foxface. I just got back from MS and bought 20 trochus snails and a lawnmower blenny. I have a Seahare but haven't seen him since I moved him from the frag tank to the main tank. From what I could tell he never did much damage to the algae in the frag tank anyway

Reeferhead · #25 03/07/2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geoxman
If you want my input I would say increase the feedings 2-5 fold. I have never had HA and I feed the tank a ton, about 20 times what you do. If you have enough LR and skimmer power your system will adapt. JMHO
Feed more!
read the whole thread pretty interesting.
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic20086-9-1.aspx
good luck!

I'd love to feed more, I'm sure the corals would greatly benefit. Unfortunately I don't think my current skimmer design is efficient enough to handle it. Finding the balance can sometimes be difficult.