Lets talk about Vodka/sugar dosing

[smalltime]

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweety...osingsugar.html

So all these people dosing Vodka with no ill effects are playing Russin Roulette? Reefers experience the cloudy tank they exceed there tank limit of a carbon source that there tank can handle. If noboddy knows what Zeo is, could this be the same game of Russin Roulette? Does the Zeo method culture only desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria? Lets throw Prodibio method in there also. Any method has risk if you stray from you maintaince schedule. Then Vodka, Zeo and Prodibio methods all put your tank on steriods, artificially growing desirable denitrifying strains of bacteria by addition of carbon sources.

This is directly out of Marine Depots catalog "BIO DIGEST is a hyper-concentrated bacterial compound that satisfies two functions: Installing biological filtration and digesting aquarium waste."

[SDguy]

I'm not understanding the "Russian Roulette" aspect of your post? At worst, a bacterial bloom is really ugly, and could possible suck the oxygen out of the system, killing fish. Is this what you mean?

BTW, the link didn't work for me.

[smalltime]

Originally posted by Leopard Man
I just read that people get ich and popeye when they use too much vodka and sugar.

Here are some links:

http://home2.pacific.net.ph/~sweetyu...singsugar.html

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...readid=1260492

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=898931

The link was posted by Leopard Man on page 9 of this thread.

[SDguy]

I want to make something perfectly clear here. And this is for myself...I speak for no one else. I am not an idiot (not that anyone called me one ). I know perfectly well how to grow and maintain beautifully colored SPS corals. It's actually quite easy. I'm well versed in the topics of water chemistry, lighting, water flow, etc. I am not here asking why my corals won't grow or why they lack the color I am striving for.

But guess what, I don't want to keep *just* a tank full of SPS like Borneman would like. I don't want to keep one coral head per 30g like Calfo would like. I don't want 5 small fish swimming around my tank like pretty much any "expert" would prefer. No, I want it all, like so many other reefers. Lots of SPS, mixed with all sorts of other corals. Lots of fish. I enjoy pushing the envelope in this hobby of mine. For a reef sitting in a doctor's office waiting room....sure, follow all the rules...have a simple, beautiful, low maintenance tank. But this is my tank; this is something I enjoy tinkering with constantly. Trying to find that perfect balance for a less than perfect combination of things living in my tank is a constant point of interest for me. Do I do things that are blatantly dangerous to my reef? No. Could they eventually be? Yes, hence careful monitoring and observation.

As for that first article you linked, all I have to say is this. If all reefers had that attitude, this hobby would still be cycling FO tanks with UG filters and dead coral skeletons using a handful of potting soil. I'm not arguing the theory...many apply to these situations. I'm simply not going to wait around for a science laboratory to get funding to study these various methods and theories. *Cough cough...will never happen....cough*

So, when all is said and done, am I playing it safe? No. Am I playing Russian roulette? Not IMO. Russian roulette is the person with 20 electrical devices plugged into one circuit, or the guy with a clown trigger in his community reef, or the gal with an anemone in a tank with 7 uncovered powerhead intakes...

[SDguy]

And as for most of the other info there, much of it pertains to sand beds and vodka dosing. The original thread, which is linked to in the first post of this thread, does emphasize the danger of vodka dosing with a sand bed, and how it must be done very carefully. No disagreement there.

[smalltime]

I've been dosing Vodka / Sugar for over 2 months now and found no ill effects other than crystal clear water. I'm dosing 5ml of vodka for approx 100g volume of water. Sugar I'm dosing 1/2 a teaspoon every day. I just hooked my calcium reactor back up because the demand finally rose to where I needed it. I also just ordered new bulbs and replaced my R/O cartriges.

I can say before I started making all my changes in equipment to my system, my sps colored up nicley. I had a light brown acro turn a dirty yellow and a dull blue monti turn bright blue. But since making equipment changes, the acro has turned back to brown and the monti has turned to a dull blue.

I was getting postitive results but I have to many varibles on my system now, so I'm months away from getting final results.

Tank description
90g tank 36 x 24 x 24
30g sump
ev-240 skimmer powered by a mag-18 (oversized for tank as recommended)
ozone
mag-12 return
tunze 6080
2 tunze nano 6025 mods
maxi jet 900 mod behind rockwork
approx 60+ ghp turnover rate

When I first started this method my skimmer had to be cleaned twice a week. Now it is back to once a week.

[stony_corals]

Wow, vodka dosing causing ich and popeye, off the thread a few days and look what happens?!?

Nice pics Peter!

The KZ test isn't that bad. Just to hijack for a moment. Dosing vodka and adding bacteria strains running Seachem salt, I have noticed no decline in K levels. My Zeo systems do have a measurable decline of K levels and need to be dosed using Seachem..... Hahn, be careful with K, some forms will kill you or explode

I'm going to disagree with Peter. I think vodka is absolutely safe if dosed correctly. If you rush it, or dose too much, you may have problems. Do the same with Kalk and you'll nuke your tank. I do not recommend this for beginners or people who don't understand what carbon dosing causes. I'm not trying to be elitist or anything, nor creating a false sense of 'carbon dosing as a silver bullet' - each system is different and you need to know what's happening. Again, I could say the same about kalk......

[Mark]

I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.

I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater. I do not suggest this method to newbies though. In fact, some experienced reefers would be a bad fit as well, those types that always believe more is better. It takes very little to make a big impact.

For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste. Hence, a lot of european reefers I converse with use amino acids. They feel amino acids is no more that supplementing a nitrogen source. Nitrogenous waste without phosphates, that is.

A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:

1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!

2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.

The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.

[kkris]

Potassium depletion should not be a problem with vodka dosing.
The zeolites in the other systems deplete K through ionic exchange.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/cav1i3...te_Filters.htm

[stony_corals]

Mark,

Interesting on point 1, I've noticed the same thing. Coralline growth has dramatically slowed in my systems. I don't think that I'm overdosing though. I have some NO3s on the LaMotte test kit, but it's between 0ppm and .25ppm. (I've upped feeding even more).

I agree with you on the aminos. I think corals can but I'm not certain of the efficiency of their uptake. This is why I've greatly increased feeding - I'm not smart enough to know how long the aminos are available to the corals..... dumping blender mesh daily though and taking the skimmer cup off, I know there's some N in there for a few hours.....

Thanks for posting your experience.

Originally posted by Mark
I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.

I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater. I do not suggest this method to newbies though. In fact, some experienced reefers would be a bad fit as well, those types that always believe more is better. It takes very little to make a big impact.

For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste. Hence, a lot of european reefers I converse with use amino acids. They feel amino acids is no more that supplementing a nitrogen source. Nitrogenous waste without phosphates, that is.

A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:

1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!

2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.

The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by kkris
Potassium depletion should not be a problem with vodka dosing. ...

Agreed ... the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there.

Originally posted by kkris
... The zeolites in the other systems deplete K through ionic exchange. ...

This is a common misconception regarding systems utilizing zeolithic reactor vessels. While cation exchange does take place (... your point is well taken ...), the loss is minimal (Boomer has posted extensively on the rapid degradation curves involving cations vs. zeolites in saltwater in The Reef Chemistry Forum). Even Kallmeyer's own test (2002) using ZEOvit media showed minimal K accumulation in the media.

The answer lies somewhere else ...

Although differing from most terrestrial bacteria in having a strict dependence upon Na+ for growth (13), the marine pseudomonad has, like all other bacteria examined, the capacity to accumulate K+ within itself to concentrations far in excess of the concentration in the growth medium (19, 21, 22).

Potassium Transport and the Relationship Between Intracellular Potassium Concentration and Amino Acid Uptake by Cells of a Marine Pseudomonad
John Thompson and Robert A. MacLeod
Journal of Bacteriology, Nov. 1974, p. 598-603

For anyone keeping score, the following are clearly in play with regards to K+ depletion in systems utilizing zeolithic material(s):
1. Ionic Exchange with zeolithic materia (minimal impact);
2. Accumulation within coral host tissues (minimal impact);
3. Compensation of Synthetic Salt Mix Formula (potential moderate, indirect impact);
4. Assimilation and Export via Bacterioplankton (significant impact).
5. Protein skimmer performance (potential significant impact).



HTH

[deklin]

Originally posted by Mark
I'm one of the people in those linked threads that reported a bacterial bloom a couple of years ago. I had no fish losses, but I attribute that to a good skimmer and other oxygenation sources.

I have been dosing on and off, for a couple of years now. Am I playing russian roulette? Well, sure. But so is mixing electrical devices with saltwater. I do not suggest this method to newbies though. In fact, some experienced reefers would be a bad fit as well, those types that always believe more is better. It takes very little to make a big impact.

For me, dosing vodka is my preferred way of dealing with phosphates and D.O.'s. But I have found it's easy to overdo it. Corals do need 'some' nitrogenous waste. Hence, a lot of european reefers I converse with use amino acids. They feel amino acids is no more that supplementing a nitrogen source. Nitrogenous waste without phosphates, that is.

A couple of things I noticed that were negative, were:

1)Coralline algae doesn't grow for me with overly diligent dosing. No brainer, it's an algae!

2)Longterm overdosing caused some sps to appear almost bleached. They resembled the sickly looking corals you see sometimes in other bacterial method tanks(zeo,probidio). The remedy was to back off a bit.

The latest lesson really for me is, that sometimes the signs of overdoing it will take months to materialize. And the benefits of correct dosing will not manifest immediately either. The above 2 examples are long-term effects of overdosing, IMO. Cutting back in my case was beneficial.

I would consider it a great success if I could get my coralline algae growth to slow or stop At least in a BB tank I much prefer the look of minimal coralline to an abundance. And I wouldn't have to take my powerheads out and soak them in vinegar quite so often either!

I assume that longterm lightening/bleaching of corals can be attributed to low nutrient tank syndrome and starving the corals? And that heavy feeding or possibly amino acid dosing will remedy the problem?

[stony_corals]

Glad you chimed in on this Mesocosm! I'm curious about this comment of yours....

" ... the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there."

What is different? Many of us are dosing bacterial cultures running vodka.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by stony_corals
... how long the aminos are available to the corals ...

Many thanks again to Chris Jury (McSaxmaster) for posting this one:

DFAAs are taken up and put into tissue without any lag time. This means that either the internal pool is very small or recycled very quickly. There is a lag of about 20 min before incorporation into the organic matrix (10-30 min lag found in several other studies too, so something is definitely going on there). Also, aspartic acid is a major component of organic matrix.


Allemand, D, E Tambutte, J Girard and J Jaubet. 1998.
Organic matric synthesis in the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata: role of biomineralization and potential target of the organotin tributylin.
J Exp Biol 201: 2001–2009.

For anyone interested, the link to the full article (pdf) is/was:
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/201/13/2001





BTW, that was extracted from:

Amino Acids and SPS Corals
(Shawnts106, 11.23.2006)
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

The specific post is:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...50#post8630950



HTH

[kkris]

Meso,
Thanks for the further clarification on K usage.
If what you say holds true ( I believe you), then there's a lot of misinformation flaoting around on another website.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by stony_corals
What is different?

My twisted little mind categorizes the so-called "probiotic" and "bacterioplankton" systems along three main pathways:
(1) Carbon Dosing (vodka or sugar dosing)
(2) Carbon Dosing & Bacterial Inoculation (Prodibio & PolypLabs)
(3) Carbon Dosing & Bacterial Inoculation, plus a culture ("reactor") vessel (Fauna Marin, ELOS, and Korallenzucht)

While all three pathways have much in common, there are some fundamental distinctions.

Pathway (1)
Concentrates solely on enriching bateria's growth media in order to drive nitrification & denitrification reactions. Bacterioplankton export results from the "normal", unaltered attachment/detachment patterns of biofilms, and, from enriched growth dynamics of free-living (suspended in the water column) bacteria.

Pathway (2)
Does what Pathway (1) does, and directly alters the behavior of the biofilm and free-living bacteria by changing the strain composition of the bacterial guild(s). This can be siginificant ... on several levels. Marine bacterial guilds which are disrupted by perpetual inoculations behave differently in comparison to guilds which as not so disrupted (... BTW, in natural ecosystems, such disruptions are not always happy events). Again, Bacterioplankton export results from the "normal", unaltered attachment/detachment patterns of biofilms, and, from enriched growth dynamics of free-living (suspended in the water column) bacteria.

Pathway (3)
Does what Pathways (1) & (2) do, and ... there is a bacteria culturing habitat (the "reactor" ... although I think of it as a "modified fluidized bed filter") component included. This component does two things (at least) that the other two pathways are incapable of: (A) increases mass transfer rate, i.e., more rapid nutrient uptake/assimilation by the biofilm of the component's media, and (B) makes additional bacterial biomass available for skimmer export if the media is agitated with adequate force.

This is not to say that my categorizations are definitive ...


Anyway, when I posted that, " .. the bacterioplankton export pathway isn't there", I'm not saying that there is no bacterioplankton export going on. I'm saying that the bacterial export of Pathways (1) & (2) is passive, in comparison to Pathway (3). Indeed, I don't see the bacterial export "mechanism" of either Pathway (1) or (2) as being fundamentally different than a "standard" Berlin-Style system's bacterial export (... although a "quantity" difference would be expected).

I view Pathway (3) as aggressive. Indeed, for me the atypical zone of mass transfer, coupled with the artificial disruption of bacterial biomass (for export) is what makes the Pathway (3) configuration so intriguing.



Pardon me while I go take my reef addiction psych-meds ...






JMO ... HTH

[SDguy]

Excellent post...makes perfect sense.

Your comment: "... being fundamentally different than a "standard" Berlin-Style system's bacterial export (... although a "quantity" difference would be expected)."

I'm thinking that skimmer size and processing capability may make this difference more or less significant, no? And therefore affect the "efficiency" of the system in question?

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !

Originally posted by SDguy
... I'm thinking that skimmer size and processing capability may make this difference more or less significant, no? And therefore affect the "efficiency" of the system in question?

Indeed ...



JMO

[hahnmeister]

Just a side note... I was testing Iodine yesterday, and found that my iodide levels were good, but my iodate was 0!! Could this just be another Salifert 'oops' or is this possibly due to the everclear dosing? I hear its usually the other way around... iodide drops easily and iodate stays constant...

On a related note, I stopped dosing a couple days ago. I had added a new foxface, and it got cloudy eyes overnight. So I stopped dosing, and his eyes are clearing up right away. On new fish, this seems to be the biggest problem. I have to stop dosing, wait for a week, then restart after its acclimated.

My corals have all turned rather pastel recently too, so thats the other reason I have stopped. My orange whorling cap has started bleaching in a couple areas as well. Its odd.

Yet my valonia still exists...

Go figure.

My parameters are as follows:
Temp 79.5
Salinity: 1.0225
pH: 8.0
Alk: 8.2 dKH
Ca: 410 ppm
Mg: 1050 ppm
Phos: 0 (of course, this is a salifert test kit)
Nitrate: 0-0.2 (the lowest reading)
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
Iodide: .03-.05ppm
Iodate: 0???
Sr: 10ppm
My water on the yellow scale attached to the side of my tank has never been clearer... its a 4 out of 40 (not that that means anything since its relative to my tank only).

Anyways, thats with no carbon, no phosguard/ban. I run just the Korallin Ca reactor, the ATB 'Small' cone skimmer, and I WAS doing alchohol dosing until this last weekend. I think I stripped the system down too much, FWIW, using alchohol, so Im going to step off it for a while. My skimmer's output has easily halved compared to normal... just like that. So maybe Ill get some plankton (of some sort) back into the system to feed these montipora. Its all I can come up with... Ive stripped the water too clean for them to feed on anything. Maybe?

[Canarygirl]

Hi all,

like the person said, "interesting thread."

Hahn, have you been adding potassium chloride as your K+ source? I tried doing that once and had TN spots on my orange monti-cap and rainbow monti very similar to your photos. I had better luck using the ionically balanced K+ supplements. Did you ever get a K+ test kit? It would be interesting to see what your levels are.

I am a zeo user--full blown system--but have only been at it for 8-9 weeks. I've had some results but some problems.

Results: some brown corals are coloring up nicely (not others). Best success is an LE Ultimate blue that is finallly turning blue. Noticed a big growth spurt overall.

Problems: I had some basal STN each time my alk went out of NSW ranges. It corrected itself after I'd correct the alk parameter. My biggest problem at the moment is an algae bloom of various kinds all over my tank (bryopsis, a bit of HA, cyano, diatoms, too much biofilm, a little valonia, and the worst is turf algae on my rocks.) All of this algae is considerably worse than before I started using zeovit.

I think that the importance of a powerful skimmer may be understated in zeoville. I have a BM200 but it is second generation and doesn't work well consistently. When it's not working well I can scrape off a huge pane of biofilm and see no skimmate production 4 hours later. Not a good thing. So this is my answer to the person who asked early in this thread, "what happens if you don't skim out the bacs?"

The other contribution to my algae problem is related to what mesocosm said, that you can increase bacterial export in method #3 "if the media is agitated with adequate force." My zeoreactor is also temperamental and I can't always pump it hard enough (or else it jams). So I've been going easy with it...I think I'm not getting the mulm out and this is one more way that I'm not exporting bacteria.

I don't want to give up on it but I have to fix this problem as the algae bloom is NOT what I wanted to achieve!

[hahnmeister]

I have not started the K dosing yet, no. I was using Fauna-Marin's Ultra-Organic in the past, but that was a while ago.

Yes, I think there are some parallels between the zeo/ultralith systems and vodka methods.

[stony_corals]

Sorry to see the TN on the cap, is that the only one? Man, that valonia is out of hand... Your mag is also really low. (which Sr test kit did you use?) Are you dosing any aminos? How heavy are you feeding? (Subjective, I know).

[hahnmeister]

Sr kit is Salifert.

Im not dosing aminos, no. I feed rather heavy... spectrum in the morning for fish, then Rods Reef in the evening for everything, and then either some DT's phyto or KENT phyto when the lights go off for the corals to munch on.

Yeaah, my MG is a little low. Not totally bad, but low. Im bringing it up now.

Im considering trying Zeovit/Ultralith (not so much Prodobio though) as an alternative or more comprehensive solution than alchohol. When I look at all the other things I use anyways, adding Zeo-rocks, and a few other bottles isnt really all that much to consider. Its not that much different than me dosing phytoplex, using Kent trace elements, buying/dosing everclear, and using phosban/guard, etc... only I think KZ has put more thought into the 'total system'.

[stony_corals]

Yes, I've seen you 'over there' hahn. It's really not, I hate to get ot, but anyone who says that running zeo is tedious, probably shouldn't have a reef. It takes like 1 minute daily (depending on how hard/often you pump the rocks)....

I think mesos comment about the benefit of the reactor is quite interesting. I guess I haven't thought about that until know. You can see the mulm, and there is a feeding response.....

[dvanacker]

Not too turn this into a zeo thread but sugar or voda dosing is WAY cheaper then zeo.

If zeo was'nt so expensive I would think about it.