Thinking About Converting to a DSB, Is It Worth the Trouble? Need Opinions!

Pomacanthus1 · #1 08/01/2002, 10:50 PM

I have a 55g reef with a 2-3" bed of fine aragonite gravel. It's been working okay, but the benefits of a DSB have been nagging at me for months. I really hate my current substrate though, it's ugly and i have to vacuum it every time i do a water change or it starts to look crappy. I would probably go with a 5" bed of Southdown sand.

How would i keep the sand out of the bottom slits of my AGA Reef-Ready corner overflow box? Is that even an issue?

Any stories of converting, advice, and opinions are greatly appreciated!

TIA

Pomacanthus1 · #2 08/02/2002, 04:59 PM

bump

Pomacanthus1 · #3 08/02/2002, 07:40 PM

Cmon, give me something!

fishpoo · #4 08/02/2002, 07:48 PM

i say change it. if you hate it you should. you should be enjoying this hobby so why not. the benefits of a DSB are easy to find on a search. it's a long wait for the bed to mature, but i think it's worth it.

tyoberg · #5 08/02/2002, 08:30 PM

Sure--you're halfway there already. It's not like you have to take the tank apart, you just have to add more sand. It'll be like the sandbed you have now, only deeper and it will really pull out a lot of nitrates when it get's warmed up.

Ty

Pomacanthus1 · #6 08/02/2002, 08:34 PM

Whoops, sorry. My mistake. It's more of a gravel, not sand. The particles are around 1mm and flake-like.

Rock Anemone · #7 08/02/2002, 08:56 PM

I would change it for these reasons:

Looks Nicer
Home To Many Critters
Great Filtration
Home To More Like Like I Said
You'll Be Happier With It

I would just get a PVS pipe stick it in the tank point it where you want the sand and put a funnel on the top of the PVS pipe and start pouring the sand down.

Best Of Luck!
Rock Anemone

sven · #8 08/02/2002, 09:02 PM

Ok, so if he has a 55 gallon tank with a bunch of LR and noplace else that can handle it. How does he "make the change" Can he just move all the LR to one end of the tank, remove the gravel and replace it with Southdown. Then move the rock to that end and replace the other? I assume he would need to leave some of the old sand to help the new bed get started, but how about some ideas here of how to actually pull it off. Will all tank inhabitants have to go somewhere on vacation? I know the Southdown will make one heck of a dust cloud. Will the biological filter take a huge hit?

Pomacanthus1 · #9 08/02/2002, 09:06 PM

If i were to change, i would probably buy one of those big Rubbermaid tubs and move all the LR, fish, corals and inverts to it and run a few powerheads. I'd leave them in there for a day or so while the cloud settled/got sucked up by my Magnum 350 which i currently don't use, then move everything back.

sven · #10 08/02/2002, 09:14 PM

I believe that you want to leave the live rock in the tank. It supposedly helps the Southdown to settle. I also read that you may not want to use the mag 350, the fine stuff that is waterborne is some of the best stuff. I'd go into Dr. Ron's forum on this one.

tubs · #11 08/02/2002, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pomacanthus1
Cmon, give me something!

Poma,

According to the experts there are a great number of benefits to doing so. I just posted an extensive article on this subject on the SEABay website from a recent presentation by Rob Toonen. I think it is a must read for you to get your answer:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbull...hreadid=103941

coralite · #12 08/02/2002, 10:07 PM

Want my opinion on DSB's and converting to one, don't do it. A good bit overrated. Most folks I know are displeased w/ their "Monstrous Pet Sand Pit" Taking up 4+ inches of their tank. Many as well who have converted have experienced lesser results than a new tank set up DSB from day 1. I think best use of a DSB is in an outside sump w/ no more than rubble on top and good water flow, much cheaper to fill too. just my opinion ...

T3 · #13 08/02/2002, 10:56 PM

Speaking from my recent experience, here's how I converted my 55FO to one with a DSB using SD sand. I originally considered upgrading to a 120-180, but decided to try my hands on the 55gal that I've had for years:

- Place new sand in a separate rubbermaid tote
- Add old aquarium water from change
- Add a PH for water/air circulation
- Add some LR from your reef (if you have any to spare - I didn't)
- Toss in a shrimp or two for source of nutrient
- Stir up the sand every day or two
* You're now taking the sand through a cycle that will get it coated with bacteria and settle down. I kept it going for about a month when it was already into the nitrate phase, and the sand settled quickly after stirring up - ready to be added to tank.
- Remove livestock
- Remove rocks
- Remove existing substrate
- Add sand
- Add back the rocks (you'll have to decide on method for stabilization)
- Do a major water change (I did about 20gal)
- Add back livestock

The water cleared up within 2 days! This was done back in March and I'm glad I did it; by June my nitrate level has dropped from the 60's down to 20's! It has allowed me to remove all the bioballs from the Amiracle W/D. I can attributed this to the DSB because at the time I had only one 3lbs liverock and the W/D to account for the bulk of filtration. I had a "built-in" rinky-dink skimmer but that remained constant during the transition. It also didn't take long for me to see the formation of Nitrogen bubbles along the edges of the DSB - an indication that the anaerobic layer is working. And this is a 4month old DSB!

The 55 has since gone through another major change. I now have about 60lbs of LR, 4" DSB, and a ER CS6-3 skimmer!

And it's no longer FO; I have shrooms, GSP, zoos, feather duster, hermits, snails, serpent stars, worms, and...unfortunately...aiptasias! Dang it!

Sorry for such a long reply, but I hope it gives you a good reference. Obviously there are variations to the process, but this has worked for me. And I must add that Minh Nguyen (an RC member) was thanked for it.

HTH,

Tom

Pomacanthus1 · #14 08/02/2002, 11:09 PM

tubs-
Thank you for the articles! They were very enlightening.

T-3-
That sounds like a quick, convenient way to add a DSB. I will definitely do it that way if i decide to convert. One question though, did you have a powerhead or other circulation source in the container with the sand?

T3 · #15 08/02/2002, 11:21 PM

Yes, a powerhead (PH

) is a must! I used a Maxijet 600 and hooked up the airline to the nozzle for added air circulation to the water. You could also drop in an airstone...

Pomacanthus1 · #16 08/02/2002, 11:25 PM

Oh yeah, just one more question: were the shrimp alive, or dead shrimp tails?

TIA

T3 · #17 08/03/2002, 12:01 AM

Raw, peeled shrimp tail - break down faster that way. Just be prepared for the odor that thing gives off as it decomposes!

Good luck!

jrwap · #18 08/03/2002, 12:01 AM

Well, I just went through the very same thing. I had absolutely nothing at the bottom of my 90gal which had been up for a little over 6 months. I decided to add a DSB when I found someone locally who was offering about 200+ lbs of live sand at a nice price.

You have to take everything out!!! Then when you dump in the sand.... it will take days to even begin to clear. I had a couple pieces of liverock with my 9 corals and 7 fish in 20gal cooler for about a week. I did very small water changes and kept a powerhead moving water around. I also put an exta set of 55w PC's on top which helped keep the water warm.

I think it was well worth it even though it was a pain in the *****. My losses were limited to 3 chromis which isnt bad at all.... actually it was my fault that they died. Who would have guessed that they would be sucked into a power head?!?!

Anyway, good luck with this project. Im sure you will find it as rewarding as I have....

-JRW

espi360 · #19 08/03/2002, 02:37 AM

OMHO / IME DSB are hard to set up unless the micro bio parts are very numerous and the sand has a pre existing heavy load of creepy crawlies in it. Simply adding "live sand" and expecting it to perform all the "dirty" duties in a reef is a load of crap.

The sand is sand. Its WHAT IS IN THE SAND that counts, that comes best on live rock. Fresh GOOD QUALITY live rock. Al the live sand I ever got From different places (and I get near a 1/4 ton a year) is crap from everywhere except the Gulf of Mexico, and recently that has been crap too (due to a nasty choking algae cloud)
NITRATE reduction can be handled by live rock as well.

ASIDE: With out geting in an arguement, check out this thread.....

http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbull...threadid=95665

it is very relevent to this discussion... HOPEFULLY U will understand waht I was saying because aparently some didn't

Simply adding "live sand" to a functioning system wil not cut down on detritus. Perhaps U are over feeding? or over cleaning.
With ALL liverock, sand becomes "Live" over time.

IMO, you will be more frustrated by having to tear down the tank to remove the old substrate, OR leave it in.
The PVC pipe trick works great too.

ITS ALL A CONSPIRACY ! DSB TANKS ARE RECOMENDED BY PEOPLE WHO SELL LIVE SAND. Well its just a theory

MikeRyan · #20 08/03/2002, 08:57 AM

I have a 55 gal. that has been up and going for 2 yrs. Originally started with 60lbs carib sea/tideline mix of crushed coral med coarse and 55lbs live rock. In the last two months i have added about 40 or so pounds of carib sea sugar sized sand ... what a big diff. The find sand is being pulled down into the lower levels by the critters that had already inhabited the crushed coral and many have moved to the new sugar sized sand. i am well pleased with my tank and am planning on moving up to a 90gallon in the next year or so. I have attached a pic that shows part of the tank ... please no Tang police ... my RS sailfin is happy and will soon be in a bigger home he is very fat and is provided red seaweed select 24 hrs a day

Gary Majchrzak · #21 08/03/2002, 09:36 AM

Pomacanthus, here is what I've done.
I've benn running my 220 reef with a 2-3" bottom consisting of Carib-Sea "Florida Crushed Coral" {FCC} for 8+ years.
It does dissolve slowly, and I usually replace it with more of the same. It works great for me.
Recently, I've been adding cupfulls of "Southdown" to the substrate to replace the dissolved aragonite. It is superior to have this mix of substrate in many ways.Gobies and other critters can construct burrows that are impossible with sugar-sized sand alone.It is VERY pleasant looking, as well.
The "dust cloud" produced by placing the sand in the tank is dissipated within hours,and is no worse than the dust cloud caused daily by my leopard wrasses' activities....
all my acros remained open during the sandstorm.
You want your rockwork to remain stable and thus on the bottom of the aquarium.
I cannot IMAGINE removing ANYTHING in order to add "Southdown"! Just add it slowly over a month's timespan.
I've also added it to my sump/refugium.It's amazing how fast the critters colonize the new sand in there!
Off the topic, next year my son starts taking lessons on the trombone....

Pomacanthus1 · #22 08/03/2002, 03:25 PM

Thanks for the comments everyone, they've all been helpful in coming to my decision. Because i absolutely hate the flakey, course look of my current sandbed, i will be completely replacing it with Southdown sand, using T3's method. As it turns out, there is someone who's selling it right in my town for $12 a bag! I'm definitely gonna do this. I'm probably going to remove the LR when i add the sand, mostly because i don't like how it is now, but i was always reluctant to change it.

Gary Majchrzak-
Cool, i hope he likes it and does really well! FWIW, don't buy a big expensive fancy horn right away, just rent one for a few years. That's what i did, and once i decided that i really like it i got a really nice one when i started high school.

Bach (made my Selmer) trombones are best IMO FWIW.

espi360 · #23 08/03/2002, 03:33 PM

This can cause Amm Nitrite Nitrate spikes and algal blooms, The rock will have to work overtime to keep up on bioload. just keep a watchfull eye....... Good LUCK !

Pomacanthus1 · #24 08/03/2002, 03:43 PM

Thanks espi360. While i'm doing the conversion, i'll make sure to add AmQuel the day and every other day after to neutralize any excess ammonia.

RooFish · #25 08/03/2002, 05:04 PM

espi, you kinda seem to be missing the point. Truth is, deeper sand beds work better. If LR worked as well, people would never worry about DSBs, they'd just use LR. Unfortunatly it doesn't. Also, sand is better for many creatures (pods and such) than big chunks. You said O2 penetrates the first 3 inches, but 2 inches is fine. Thats a contradictory statement, as the point is to create an anaerobic zone where the bacteria who consume the Nitrates can live, since they live in areas with little or no O2, so can't function well in areas with O2. Also, you said 8 inches is excessive, which it may be, but more area means more filtration area, means better filtration, means better water quality. Thats the whole point. Technically yes, there will be small amounts of these bacterium in LR and smaller sand beds, but until you get enough sand (critical mass) you don't get efficient filtration out of it, and the nitrates can continue to build up despite your efforts.

Also, you bring up the point that this could be avoided by not overfeeding, but there will be ammonia created as long as you have live critters in the tank. That turns into nitrite, then nitrate. Or, if you don't feed, the fish die, and theres more ammonia. Basically, if theres something alive in the tank, there will be nitrate that needs to be processed. Sure, overfeeding will compound the problem, but as long as you make sure there is good filtration, it doesn't matter, since it will be taken care of.

Whether or not you change your opinion, thats how it is. DSBs work better than CC, LR, or just a little sand. The others can do a little, but CC traps crap, and only does aerobic, LR only does aerobic filtration, for the most part, and small amounts of sand only do aerobic.