Question about the main expense in Propagation (electricity)

[FatmanII]

If you can propagate outdoors and use one chiller to cool xx amount of gallonsm would this be (or not be) cheaper than running xx amount of gallons indoors with no chiller under halides?

Example:

Arctica Titanium Chillers
HP Capacity Volt Amps
1/10 1270 115 2.63 = 302watts
1/5 2400 115 5.0 = 575 watts

So two MH 150 watt already equal the first chiller and 4 equal the 2nd?

Just looking for opinions and input.

[123and456]

im not an expert by any means but if you are looking to do an outside setup the cost of putting the greenhouse or building up is going to take some time to off set the cost. A couple of the green house builds that I have seen around RC they have had a very hard time getting good coral growth with good color. To me it seems that it is easier to control the variables inside. As far as electric goes there are some ways to cut your bill but I do not think that it is more cost effective to do a prop system outside if there is room inside.

[Philip Root]

Originally posted by 123and456
i A couple of the green house builds that I have seen around RC they have had a very hard time getting good coral growth with good color.

I have no trouble with color or growth.

[FatmanII]

Originally posted by 123and456
im not an expert by any means but if you are looking to do an outside setup the cost of putting the greenhouse or building up is going to take some time to off set the cost. A couple of the green house builds that I have seen around RC they have had a very hard time getting good coral growth with good color. To me it seems that it is easier to control the variables inside. As far as electric goes there are some ways to cut your bill but I do not think that it is more cost effective to do a prop system outside if there is room inside.

Im trying to ignore that because in the long run your overhead is your main drain. The tank of the month this month is what got the idea going, his whole balcony section but still connected to the main tank is something Ive been wanting to do for a while just did not have the resources at the time.

[tekknoschtev]

As far as I know, a 400W halide doesn't necessarilly draw 400W. I might be wrong there, but I think its highly dependent upon the ballast, some being more efficient than others. At least thats the impression I was under.

I don't know that an outside tank would necessarilly be more efficient in all situations - it really would depend where you lived. I'm in Michigan, and half the year I'd have to run a massive bank of heaters to keep the tank warm enough, even inside of a proper greenhouse, and the other half of the year I'd be running a chiller non-stop to keep it cool. In a more temperature stable climate, it might be more feasable, but the winter temps average in the teens, and over the summer it can reach to 80-90 degree heat waves.

I think I partially agree with 123and456 with the sentiment of controlling variables. In my case, running the exact same system inside prevents me from having to worry about keeping heaters and a chiller/chillers all operational, lest they cause a serious problem if/when one malfunctioned. On top of that, I didn't have the added overhead of constructing a greenhouse and maintaining that, rather I had a basement that stays fairly constant in temp during all seasons, that provides ample room for what I want to do.

I also believe that in addition to the location issue, there's also a scale issue. A smaller system is going to suffer the effects of temp swings much more quickly than a larger system, and as the system size increases the temp stability does as well. On top of that, as the system size increases, the demand for more lights does as well, so relying on the sun in a greenhouse becomes more feasable.

[FatmanII]

Awsome points tek , maybe someone can get back to us on those halides draw of wattz. BTW I live in South Fla, so its usually 70+ degrees most of the year. (thus my interested )

[redox]

well lets see.....just off the top of my head..... start with the building(gh),matrials,labor ran about 25,000 . then start talking about equipment. vats,pumps,fans, controlers,ozone(have discontinued use of),supplimental lights,algae cultures, timers,test kits,salt,water(ro di),storm protection,light movers,cooling systems,and all the wires and electrical sub panel swithces,plugs,lights,conduit,labor to install all that. Im sure I left out a whole lot of other things but at that I am over 50,000 invlved in it. not to mention livestock. and.... color and growth is good as any indoor system. It costs about 250 in power bills monthly! Ive sold very little due to the fact I cant seem to part with it. Right now my operation is a learning experience and boy have learned alot. two years of opperation is right around the corner in May. It tookl a good year to finnaly see the results of a cycled system. coraline growth is awsome(every color youve ever seen) . I am now experiencing the results I was hoping for. Deep pockets I dont have, just the desire to see results. I have had setbacks and just kept going, no turning back now

[sharkdude]

http://garretts-acropolis.com/

he uses fans to cool.

[Philip Root]

Acrylic in the sun.. how fun!!

[Meisen]

Sunlight tends to lighten corals quite a bit but try bringing some inside to look at under 20Ks....whew wee!!! They are as colorful as anything you can find on RC as long as your nutrients arent sky high. The only problem I have with sunlight grown stuff is that it doesnt always stay those awesome colors under my dim 400s. So yeah, coral farming outside is the way to go unless you want to subsidize the local electric company CEO's Porsche payments. If you are stuck doing it inside, it likely isnt going to progress past being a big hobby.

[raaden]

This, I believe, is the 64k question as far as frag farming goes. And unfortunately there is no real answer at this point. I spent quite a bit of time trying to find out some sort of answer to it and all I could come up with is that the scale of the operation is the determining factor. The difficulty in trying to get an equation is that there are so many more costs when you work outside. And to work outside you really have to have year round operations which further complicates things.

Originally posted by Meisen
So yeah, coral farming outside is the way to go unless you want to subsidize the local electric company CEO's Porsche payments. If you are stuck doing it inside, it likely isnt going to progress past being a big hobby.

That quote is very telling, and very true. For the most part he is right with the quick exception of selling very rare pieces and finding the right buyers you can make indoor operations work. What I came up with was that anything under 200 sf (~1800 gal) of growing space is just not easily doable outside. The problem is that conditions are incredibly difficult to maintain (as Hamburglar can attest to). On top of that it will be very hard to maintain enough stock with the limited amout of room to grow out the amount of corals you will need to offset the costs of the operation (espcially the winter heating bills are outrageous for a standard GH).

I looked at a 3 year payout and found the the smallest size I could reasonably expect to make work in that timeframe was a 18x24 greenhouse. That would provide a break even point if all goes well of right around 31 mos. Surprisingly the larger the GH the quicker the break even time, to a point.

Redox is pretty dead on with his numbers for a reasonable sized GH and the montlies go up even more if you have to figure in heating and consumable supplies (salt, fragplugs, supplements)

All in all if you have the drive you can do it in either setup it is just how much time money and space do you have to get started.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by redox
color and growth is good as any indoor system.

I'd say redox's coral color is at least as good as indoor systems, better than a lot I've seen. Anemones with good color too. Very nice setup ya got there.

How's that little RBTA ya had in the basket doing? If it needs a new home I think I could find it one *joking* *mostly*

-Sonja

[Eric Boerner]

The basic question is totally dependant on which part of the country you intend on propigating in, and then again, where in that part of the country as well.

Indoor fragging with high electricity usage in CA is finacial suicide. Its completely opposite in WA, where electricity is still pennies per KWatt Hour. Again, outdoor prop makes more sense in CA where the sun is free than it does WA where the sun is non-existant on the western side of the state.

The largest reason there is so many propigation efforts in CA and FL, is because both area points of entry for livestock, thereby having higher interest locally in the hobby. Which gives a ready supply of shops to sell too., and in the long run will cut overhead costs.

However.... As raaden has pointed out already... With the right stock demand, you can pretty much throw as much money as you want at your prop system if you are selling your inventory relatively fast.

"Most" coral farms wind up relying on fast growing cheap corals that they turn over in mass quantities to break even or get ahead. Those wind up being pretty much anywhere in the country.

The other profiteers are finding the flavor of the month corals and propigating those at much higher sales. They don't take huge systems and can be ran out of the basement. But to "Really" win big, they need to be in the LAX area watching the wholesalers and retailers for the special "new" designer coral to appear. Then tout it out as the hot new thing that everyone has to have. Chop it up, grow it out for awhile. Release a couple small frags to get the interest going, and bam... ride the wave for a few months with the brood stock that they have in reserve. Alot like stock trading IMO. You can win big... or fall flat on your face.

[ReefWreak]

For cooling, a long term, lower cost solution could be geothermal cooling, using a ground loop of water to cool tank water, since a few meters down from the surface, the earth is constantly around 55-65 degrees almost no matter where you live.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by ReefWreak
For cooling, a long term, lower cost solution could be geothermal cooling, using a ground loop of water to cool tank water, since a few meters down from the surface, the earth is constantly around 55-65 degrees almost no matter where you live.

I've considered geothermal loop/s, the stable ground temp here is 65F but I've yet to pin down exactly how deep I'd have to dig. Installation would not be cheap, I'm thinking, but I bet it'd pay off in the long run.

-Sonja

[raaden]

Geothermal costs... insanely expensive if you consider the permits and labor for the digging and installation of the ground loop. The system itself is about the same as a standard heat pump.

I thought about this for the system that is going up now but a standard Ground Source Heat Pump just couldn't possibly pay for itself during the expected lifetime of a single GH. When I talked with a GH manufacturer they said that the times when they see people use GS Heatpumps is normally for facilities in the 6000+ sf realm where the houses are rebuilt to be permanent.

What I am considering ( as if I don't have enough going through my tired brain right now ) is to see if the amount of makeup water I will be keeping in the GH is sufficient to keep the GH warm through a cold night if circulated through a ground source heat pump. The idea is to let the water heat up from the sunlight during the day in a bunch of 55 Gal barrels and then circulate that water through the heat pump as if it were a ground loop. A couple of funky things though are: the barrels at some point become colder than the air circulating and create a drag on the system, and that if the barrels start to freeze the heat pump will basically die.

It has turned into a pretty interesting study with the main unknown being exactly how many btu's a bunch of 55 gal drums can absorb during the day. The amount of water I will be storing is pretty comparable to the amount of antifreeze that is stored in the ground loop of a standard installation, and since water has a higher thermal coefficient than antifreeze it should work by the numbers but I just get that queasy feeling when I think about what could happen if....

[Stoney Mahony]

The ground is not 65 in Florida. I dug down 60 ft and it's 76.

[FatmanII]

Awsome input everyone, Im still debating what I'll do but great info.

Originally posted by Stoney Mahony
The ground is not 65 in Florida. I dug down 60 ft and it's 76.

Agreed I live in South Fla, and ground temp here is 75+ easily.

[redox]

I had a geo loop going for some time and discontinued its use because in mid summer it was actually making my temps rise a degree or so. anyone want it , its buried out back

[Meisen]

I think the geothermal stuff works well further north than you all. The ground temp stays pretty high in the winter here in Wisconsin, especially when we have snowpack. In the summer, it isnt hard to get down deep enough to find temps in the 50s.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by redox
I had a geo loop going for some time and discontinued its use because in mid summer it was actually making my temps rise a degree or so. anyone want it , its buried out back

LMAO well if it would fit in my car I might take it. But then, I guess I'd have to dig it up too, huh? At least it's in sand and not the lovely white clay we have here in this part of NC...

-Sonja

[Philip Root]

Just to put the "you can't get color in a greenhouse" to rest.
Image

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by Philip Root
Just to put the "you can't get color in a greenhouse" to rest.

Ooooo pretty. Very nice growth on the plugs as well. Thanks for the pix!!

-Sonja

[Stoney Mahony]

Awesome pics Phillip What do you do when they start over growing the plugs? Sell them? Let them encrust on nearby empty plugs? Any supplemental lighting in there? Super sweet color, I hope I can achieve something that good some day.

[raaden]

Now thats alot of livestock. What is the timeframe on that growth, from fragging to the pics. Those pics are making reevaluate doing stcnies again.