PLEASE HELP!!! Sump and return issues

[SirCharles77]

Hey I am new to the whole sump process. I got this tank that has a sump and a U-tube that gets the water flowing into it from the tank. Then the return sends it back. The U-tube has a valve on it for adjusting the waterflow as does the return (even though its too far behind the tank to easily get to it).

So right now I have a weak pump on the return. its a rio 1700 and at best its running 200gph right now and I am planning to get another one but havent yet. The U-tube is 1" PVC and travels straight down so it gets pretty good water flow.

The problem is this. Since the U-tube flows via suction, and I dont have a turn-off switch on the return section of the sump I am having troubles stabalizing the movement of water through the sump.

Basically I have been adjusting the U-tube flow valve to try and get it stabalized and it never gets just right. The water is either draining out of the sump too fast or going into it too fast and it never evens out.

How can I get this so that there isnt any risk of flooding the sump or draining the return section of the sump to the point where my pump runs dry and burns out on me?

PLEASE HELP!!!

I can post pictures if it helps anyone understand whats going on better.

[Blown 346]

You will have to play with the overflow box by raising it or lowering it until you get the right water level inside it.
I would trun power off, let the sump fill up until it is done. You might have to add water to the sump.

[SirCharles77]

I dont have an overflow box...it is just a tube that goes over the back of the tank and I have to suck the air out of it to get the water flowing. There isnt a box on it.

And what would turning the power off and letting the sump tell me? I dont get how that would help...

[rustybucket145]

Throw the U tube in the garbage.... buy a bulkhead and drill a hole in your tank.... problem solved!

[tapplehave]

Agree with Blown 346, You need the overflow box. Dr.Fosters & Smith/ $40. You can then adjust the height in your tank.
Shut the pump off, let the siphon do the work, then see if you need more water in the sump(+water if needed the fire it up) Good luck. Rustybucket145 offers a good point, if your tank is only a few months old, transfer the goods to another tank for as long as it takes to go to the local glass house and have a bulk head put in, or do it yourself(read up on drilling acrylic)

[reefergeorge]

Originally posted by SirCharles77
I dont have an overflow box...it is just a tube that goes over the back of the tank and I have to suck the air out of it to get the water flowing. There isnt a box on it.

And what would turning the power off and letting the sump tell me? I don't get how that would help...

That is a flood waiting to happen. You need to get an overflow box or drill the tank.
Turning of the power simulates a power failure so you can see how much back flow water in the lines will drain back into the sump.

[mg426]

www.lifereef.com

[SirCharles77]

well I actually have a hole with a bulkhead already but it is being used to split the return right now. The one on the left is actually lower than the one on the right.

So let me understand you correctly? If I have a hole and a bulkhead, then I would just leave it open with the bulkhead and a prefilter covering it and let the water run through it down to the sump? Just as is? Basically letting gravity do its job?

Is that what you are suggesting? It makes sense but it almost seems to simple. What are the drawbacks of that sort of thing?

And just to note I actually dont have a problem with flooding with this system right now. The problem is that if the power goes out, and the U-tube fills up the sump until it gets low enough that the suction stops working and the flow stops, then the power comes back on, when the pump turns back on it will drain the return box and then start running dry and eventually burn out my pump. Also, it is a royal pain in the *** to get it regulated so that it is balanced flow on both ends.

[SirCharles77]

And if I were to do that, using one of the bulkheads as the overflow I mean, woudl I want to use the lower one or the higher one?

[SirCharles77]

Anybody??

[SirCharles77]

So does anyone have any input on my last posts? I am working on an idea that will hopefully be good. I will post images and the plan when I get them ready.

[rustybucket145]

Lower or higher doesn't matter. Instead of a prefilter like you were saying, it would be better to make a small internal overflow box in the tank. This can be as simple as cutting a short piece of PVC lengthwise in half (say... 3 inch PVC +/-) and gluing a small piece of acrylic or plastic to the bottom, then just silicone the pvc over the bulkhead so that the top of the pvc is a little below where you want the final water level of the tank to be. The water will flow from the surface of the tank into the chamber that the pvc has made and flow out through the bulkhead.

Word to the Wise. In this Hobby.... KISS Keep it Simple!! Simple is almost always better. Using the bulkhead the ONLY thing you are relying on is good old gravity.... not a siphon, not a box.... not water level.... just gravity.

[Mike7]

This is what I've got and it works great. It only removes the same amount of water your return pump- pumps back into your tank. You can find one for around $50.00

http://www.championlighting.com/pics...I_Overflow.JPG

[NirvanaFan]

There is my overflow box with bulkhead. Pay no attention to the sandstorm in the water

The water flows through the teeth which help keep fish and things in the main tank. The water in the display will only go as low as the bottom of the teeth in the display. You can see the return line that goes over back of the tank too. Notice the hole in the return PVC that will stop a siphon from forming if the return pump were to lose power.

[fish cowboy]

For my taste the bulkhead is too low. You will always have the water 3 inches below the rim. I like overflow boxes much better because you can normally adjust them right under the rim. You also gain the 3 inches of tank water. Personally I would plug it and get an overflow box. A dual overflow would be even better.

[SirCharles77]

Mike7, how does that overflow thing you have work exactly? I think I have part of one of those but not the whole thing. I could probably get the rest but I have a box that is similar to that.

[Blown 346]

That overflow works by starting a siphon in the plastic U tube( it hangs over the overflow box and looks like a U. That U tube will siphon water from the box and drain it to the sump.

[SirCharles77]

so thats still a siphon and therefore could cause problems for me right? I am getting the feeling that any siphon system will be problematic if the power goes out.

But correct me if I am wrong but if I have a gravity only feed going it will fix both the flooding and dry return pump problems right?

[SirCharles77]

Here is a rendering of my system so that you can get a better idea what I am doing.

This is what the system looks like from the back and front currently.


Notice the really bad plumbing with all the crappy angles in it for the one side of the return line. Also with this system the flow from the U-tube will break when the power goes out and if it comes back on again after that flow is gone it will cause the return pump to drain the return tank and run dry.

Here is what I am going to attempt to change it to. Please tell me what you think and suggest any fixes or better ideas that you can think of to make it better!!
Here is the system from front and back:


And here is a close up of the sump:

And a closeup of the overflow box. Notice that I had to close off a bulkhead in the bottom of it and drill a new hole in the side in order to get the water flowing out the side. This also allows me to have more water space in the overflow box.


Here is a picture of the partial overflow that I have and am planning to modify to make the in-tank overflow for the images above.

Thoughts?

[SirCharles77]

Any experts out there have any thoughts?

[SirCharles77]

I kinda wanna know if this would work well for my tank so that I can go start setting it up. I dont wanna start cutting into stuff until I know if this is a good idea.

Any of you experts out there have comments on the overflow plan?

[spllouder]

is it if my tank was bigger like a 55 gallon i think i would get more flow. because more surface tension and more force pushing down into the u-tube .

i did notice as i let the pump overfill the tank , right before it overflows . the overflow seems to flow much more volume of water but not by much . then the pumps startes to suck air .



anyways so are you saying i wont get any more flow ? i cut the flow down to barley nothing to get it to equal out ???

its like i could of bought a quite one 1200 and would still have to cut it back .

question can i make a closed loop with my quite one 3000 ?

then i would buy a smaller pump for the sump like a 300 gph rated pump . and like 200 at 3 feet head .


anyways i think i should get my tank drilled i guess it will be better si i need design ideas frow a overflow design for my 29 gallon and where should i cut a hole and is a corner overflow only for a drilled bottom ?

[SirCharles77]

Was this intended for a different thread? I dont get it.

[S_Stoney_S]

right im a little drunk rightnow staff party and all for xmas, happy christmas all, so here goes.

You would ideally just reverse the system you hda origionally. IE: Your overflow (ubend) would become your return pipe and here you could branch it to distribute flow.

Your existing return pipes through the bulkheads (as they are allready thgouh the galss) you would construct glass/acryllic (depending on tank) arround and then have 2 drains probably running on about 25-35% efficiency due to your WEAK return pump. But a redundancy is good in case of snail blockage. These would more than suffice to be the drains to the sump.

Reasons not to have the return where you stated:

1. If the return is comming in below the waterline when the power fails this pipe via the pump below will act like a syphon -- bye bye water in main tank.

2. Loop over the top of the tank and drill an air escape hole above the waterline removes this risk.

Like I said Im as ****ed as a fart but im sure some of what I've stated will be seconded by these good chaps at RC

[S_Stoney_S]

sorry yet again i did not think that slang for urine/drunkeness in the manner i used was offensive.

none ment and hopefully none taken