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  #1  
Old 07/29/2007, 10:11 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Phoenix 14k vs Giesemann 14.5k vs others...

Hi!
I would like to have your opinions, suggestions, experiences about DE bulbs in the 14-20k spectrum. I am currently using a 48" Giesemann lighting system (DE with Icecaps electronic ballasts) with two 250W Phoenix 14k, one daylight T5 (around 6500k) and one pure actinic T5.

I started with the default 13k Giesemann with 2 actinic plus. I then switched to the Phoenix DE bulbs and witnessed a significant improvement in blue, purple, and green coloration of corals. Bright pink coloration on the Pocillopora and Stylophora decreased at the same time tough. Those colors got back when I changed the T5 to the current set-up. I think the 6500k T5 is responsable for that. It also brings a nice balance to the ambiance/color of the lighting. I miss the blue dawn from the actinics tough. The pure actinic T5 is eclipsed by the daylight T5 and is almost unnoticeable (they can't be turned on separately...).

Anybody experienced both the Giesemann 14.5k and the Phoenix 14k and can give me a comparison? What about the Giesemann 20k? I would like to try something new in that range (14-20k) when I get to change my DE.

Many thanks!
Ricimer
  #2  
Old 07/30/2007, 11:52 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Anyone!? Giesemann 14.5 vs Phoenix 14k?
  #3  
Old 07/31/2007, 12:20 AM
scaryperson27 scaryperson27 is offline
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I would prefer the Phoenix over any other bulbs that i have seen but i haven't seen a Giesemann bulb.
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  #4  
Old 07/31/2007, 12:54 AM
Ti Ti is offline
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try the iwasaki 14k
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  #5  
Old 07/31/2007, 12:59 AM
klam114 klam114 is offline
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I've seen the Phoenix vs. Giesemann and Phoenix is bluer and pops color out more than Giesemann. For your T5, try one ATi Blue Plus in front and the UVL Atinic Plus in the back.
  #6  
Old 07/31/2007, 02:44 AM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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The saki is almost identical to the pheonix... so I dont think you will get much there. The g-man is similar to the Ushio 14,000K... its like a 10,000k with some purple in the output (alot actually, but you just dont see it because of all the red/yellow/etc). I love this bulb though because all you have to do is add a blue+ T5 bulb to it, and its icey day-blue looking. Corals love it too.... red ones and blue ones...

Here is a pic of the ushio 14,000Ks with the blue+ T5s... the G-man is pretty much just a higher intensity ushio 14,000K looks wise...
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  #7  
Old 07/31/2007, 02:50 AM
Fliger Fliger is offline
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Giesemann 14.5K and Elos 10K bulbs are my favorite two DE bulbs. I also had the Ushio 14K but found these two to be more crisp. The most "pure" white bulbs I've ever used. Definitely the best color - as Hahn mentioned - a couple blue T5 tubes and you get it all. White/blue, great growth and great TRUE coloration. If you can supplement with four T5's - add a red tube and another blue tube. Perfect!
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  #8  
Old 07/31/2007, 12:39 PM
bureau13 bureau13 is offline
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I'm using Phoenix bulbs on an HQI ballast right now, and while I do generally like it, I don't like what its done to pinks...they almost look bluish. I'm supplementing with 4x39W UVL Superactinics, but my fixture is 4x250W HQI....I find the 4 HQI tend to drown out the T5s. I originally had AB 10K HQI and Blue+ T5, but the AB is a bit yellowish, which was too much for the T5s to overcome. Sanjay's plots indicate a sub-10K color temp for the G'man bulbs, so I sort of assumed they'd also have this "warm" look and wouldn't pop colors. For those of you who have it, do you feel that, without blue supplemental lights, its really white, or does it have that warm yellow tint that so many 10K bulbs have?

jds
  #9  
Old 07/31/2007, 12:46 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
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bureau13, add one 3000k T5 GE bulb from reef geek to your T5 setup to give your reds and pinks back a bit.
  #10  
Old 07/31/2007, 01:47 PM
bureau13 bureau13 is offline
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Interesting, never thought about that. Now, I have a front and back row of 2 T5s each...so I'd have to replace 2 actinics with 2 3000K bulbs, right? You don't think that would be too much of...what is that color, bright yellow? I may have to look into that. God, I wish I had more rows of T5s to experiment with!

Quote:
Originally posted by oct2274
bureau13, add one 3000k T5 GE bulb from reef geek to your T5 setup to give your reds and pinks back a bit.
  #11  
Old 07/31/2007, 07:17 PM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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the pheonix is a very monochromatic bulb... its lots of blue, but little else.. no actinic even really. I got sick of it, and as mentioned, the best supplimental bulb I found was to run a true actinic/super actinic T5 and a sun bulb... this bulb actually needs supplimental 'daylight' or all the corals end up fading out and looking 'chalky'...

As for the color of the Ushio and G-man 14,000Ks (which I find to look the same), it really depends on the tank. These bulbs are very daylight/10,000K, but with a strong actinic output... stronger than any other bulb out there actually. If you stare at the bulb, it looks purple even. But all that daying in the bulb means that it really depends on how clear you keep your water. I can have the bulb on a tank with heavy skimming, carbon, etc... and it will look crisp and almost blue. If the tank has just the slightest tint to it, it seems that this bulb really picks up the yellow in the water very easily and the bulb looks like a 10,000K, and needs the T5s to look better. FWIW, the only thing this bulb lacks is a nice blue spike, so with the addition of just a blue T5 bulb, this is perhaps the best bulb on the market as far as output/watt, growth and spectrum as far as the corals are concerned, and color as far as the viewer is concerned.
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  #12  
Old 07/31/2007, 07:24 PM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by bureau13
Interesting, never thought about that. Now, I have a front and back row of 2 T5s each...so I'd have to replace 2 actinics with 2 3000K bulbs, right? You don't think that would be too much of...what is that color, bright yellow? I may have to look into that. God, I wish I had more rows of T5s to experiment with!
just use one 3000k bulb only. leave 3 blue bulbs in. the 3000k bulbs will be yellow so you will want the extra blue in there to offset it.
  #13  
Old 08/01/2007, 12:01 AM
bureau13 bureau13 is offline
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I've tried using different bulbs in the front row from the back row of T5s, but never side to side differences. If I use just the one 3000K that will be on one side or the other. Won't that make half the tank look different? Are they diffuse enough that that won't matter?

jds
  #14  
Old 08/01/2007, 12:33 AM
oct2274 oct2274 is offline
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are you saying that have 2 bulbs on the left and two bulbs on the right? If that is how they are than you might not want to do this cause i think that 2 3000k bulbs might be a bit to yellow. you could try two 6500k ge bulbs. The bulbs are really cheap at reefgeek. I would just try things till you get the colors you want.
  #15  
Old 08/01/2007, 09:21 AM
bureau13 bureau13 is offline
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Right, its a six foot fixture with a single row of 2 T5s in the front, and another row of 2 in the back. 6500 may be a nice compromise since I'll have 2.

Thanks,
jds

Quote:
Originally posted by oct2274
are you saying that have 2 bulbs on the left and two bulbs on the right? If that is how they are than you might not want to do this cause i think that 2 3000k bulbs might be a bit to yellow. you could try two 6500k ge bulbs. The bulbs are really cheap at reefgeek. I would just try things till you get the colors you want.
  #16  
Old 08/06/2007, 03:16 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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The Phoenix is a lot of blue indeed. That's why I started to use supplemental 6500k daylight G-mann T5 to balance things or else the pinks fade away. Problem is that I miss my Blue T5 then especially for the dusk/dawn effect.

What is a red T5 bulb BTW? Is that the 3000k?

I wish I had 4 T5s instead of just 2 on my 48" G-mann... I like my lighting system but I wish I could do something about it. I wish I could modify it to accomodate 2 more T5s...

After reading you guys I think next time I change bulbs I'll go for 2x 14.5K 250w DE G-mann + 2 actinic plus T5 and see what it does.
  #17  
Old 08/09/2007, 08:00 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Hahnmeister,
I like best the color a 10k gives to a tank, but I dont like the coloration the corals get then. When I had a 13k G-mann, my digitatas were brown. Now with the Phoenix 14k they became bright blue within a few weeks. But on the other hand the Pocillopora lost much of their bright pink color. Do you think I would be able to keep my digitatas blue AND the Pocilloporas bright pink with the use of those 14.5k G-mann (+ 2 T5 pure actinics then)? Even better if at the same time they seam less monochromatic than those Phoenix. While bulbs in the higher spectrum (15-20k) give nice coloration to the corals I think they make the tank look uniform and somewhat dull (personnal taste). It doesn't even reflect the natural aspect of the biotope we reproduce (very shallow waters), right?
  #18  
Old 08/09/2007, 08:50 PM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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Yeah, I hear what you are saying about the higher K bulbs. I did pheonix for a year, then did the EVC 20,000K for a year. I used an icecap with the pheonix and bumped up to a PFO M80 with the EVC to make up for the lower output (but EVCs have the highest output for a 20,000K... look just like a pheonix, but with a bit more actinic purple to the mix... and therefore red too). This solved things for a while, but I still found something missing.

I have a buddy who started with the 2x250wattDE Ushio 10,000Ks and 4x54wattT5s over his 120g years ago (gopack). He hosted a few meetings, and since then, many others in the club have made the switch as well. His colors were awesome. Every coral too... not just blue or green... every coral. You know that faded pastel look some T5 tanks have? Or rather, Ive seen some heavily lit halide/SPS tanks look like that as well. Anyways... then, you know how you get those intense dark/vibrant contrasting colors with halides? Okay... now combine them together. WOW. FWIW, gopack's parameters were off as well (he had no reactor or dosing methods then compared to the reactors and dosing he does now). The corals were just electric.

The other great change I saw was when gypsy changed his 150g from 3xradium 20,000Ks with 2x 6' VHO actinics. Talk about everything being purple no matter what it really was. Sure, the tank looked cool... but everything was blue or purple no matter what. When he changed to the maristar (these are the pics labelled 'new' in the link) he used ushio 250wattDE 14,000Ks with ATI blue+ T5s.

http://web.mac.com/allongue/iWeb/Jul...l%20Views.html

The resuts were astounding. Not only did he cut his electric by a good amount, but he kept the blue, but added some daylight to the mix. The corals that he has kept in that tank for so long that nobody knew about... WOW! Yellow w/ red tips, green with red polyps, etc... you never would have known before. The end look is pretty 'ice-day' as you can see...


He only has two rows of T5s to work with, so he kept the T5 to blue, and the ushio actually has more actinic in its output than any other halide, so that base is covered as well (he just doesnt have after-hours actinics for viewing). The corals love it, and the look is very cool.

Since the 120g, go pack has started his 320g. It uses the exact same light setup... just one more halide and 2 more T5s (exact same ratio and bulbs though)...
http://www.wisconsinreefsociety.org/...opic.php?t=205


As you may tell, there is slightly more yellow to his water. This may be just do to his tank being newer though.

You can also see my combo... which is a single 250wattDE Ushio 14,000K on a light rail with 4x54wattT5s...

The thread is here...
http://www.wisconsinreefsociety.org/...topic.php?t=91
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  #19  
Old 08/09/2007, 09:26 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Thanks !
So to sum up things, you recommend either the Ushio 14k or the G-mann 14.k or the Ushio 10k, right?
It would be fine to supplement with 2 T5 pure actinics with any of these I guess.
  #20  
Old 08/09/2007, 11:45 PM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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They look the same to me, although in 250wattDE, the G-man is considerably brighter for some reason (odd, considering they are made by Ushio). I think that one person's opinion vs. another about how blue or yellow they are depends more on water clarity than anything... there is alot of everything with these bulbs. They only need the blue T5s to make them a complete spectrum (with alot of blue) thats easy on the eyes.
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  #21  
Old 08/10/2007, 12:13 AM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Thanks!
  #22  
Old 11/08/2007, 04:55 PM
Ricimer Ricimer is offline
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Another combo idea...

Hi! I had an idea for my next set up when I upgrade my 90 gal to a 6 foot 220 gal:

2x250w HQI in the 14/15k range
2x150w HQI in the 5500/6500k range
6x80w T5 consisting in 4 pure actinic and 2 actinic+

I would pair each 250w 14k with a 150w 6000k (i.e. placed as close as possible to one another for better blending of the light spectrums...). Aquascaping would be two mounds of LR. So over each mound there would be the equivalent of a 400w HQI consisting of a 150w 6000k + a bluer 250w...
The 150w 6000k would light up only for 2 or 3 hours in the middle of the day. The 250w for about 9-10 hours and the T5s for 12 hours with an independant control for each of them for a perfect dusk/dawn effect.

Should provide nice color for both blue and pink corals AND good growth and nice light variations along the day...
What do you think of this idea?

Ricimer
  #23  
Old 11/08/2007, 06:12 PM
rleechb rleechb is offline
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FWIW, I've run both the phoenix and the 14k Iwasaki. They are very different to the eye (spectral plots may be somewhat similar). I hated the iwasaki at first, but I love it now that my eyes have become accustomed the much, much white color. Here's a quick comparison shot from a while back:



Iwasaki is on the left, phoenix on the right. Compare the colors on the very sides of the tank; it's a 3 foot tank, so there's quite a bit of blending in the middle.

By the way, I run the iwasaki's with two T5 actinics; the bulb color is far too white otherwise.
  #24  
Old 11/08/2007, 09:26 PM
ksed ksed is offline
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Hahnmeister,

I'm currently running 2x250watt megachrome marine which is a 13000k bulb on a 125 gallon 24" high with sps corals. I'm debating whether to go with a Geis. coral 14500k with 2 actincs or go with more intensity, xm 10000k . In order to get the color that I want I may need to go with 4 t5 actinics. Other than a higher par I don't have any feed back on the xm bulb.Also I've noticed that the Gies.coral 14500k bulb on Sanjay web has a higher par than xm and the marine 13000k. I managed to call my rep. at Gies he said that the marine is a higher intensity bulb?

Thanks for your help
Kevin
  #25  
Old 11/09/2007, 01:48 AM
hahnmeister hahnmeister is offline
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the G-man 14,500K is light a brighter, slightly crisper version of the ushio 14,000K. It is a monster with the output. I have no doubt that its output is more than the 13,000K. I would use it over the XM in a heartbeat despite the cost... unless the output is too much (in my case, a G-man 14,500K scorches my corals, so I opted for the Ushio 14,500K instead.
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