DSB in a bucket for nitrate control

[PaintGuru]

Originally posted by the other tang
Paint guru this was talked about some oh 15-20 pages back in this thread at some length. You can probable get most of your questions answered there. I think the issie with that is tuning it correctly as oppposed to the idiot proof flow over method. The flow through would make it more like a coil denitrator and need proper tuning as not to as o2 to the entire sand bed.

Thanks, I'll go a searching.

[rschelby]

Safedad, Silverwolf, I've got my RDSB plumbed exactly how you are discussing in a IO ratchet-top bucket. The lid is easily removed, so it is easy to see what is going on. I do have about 2 inches of water between the top of the sand and the bottom of the elbows, and I get good flow through, but I haven't noticed any detrius build-up or flow patterns in the sand. I would recommend this pattern.

Russell

[the other tang]

Are you flowing down to a sump or up to the tank? I run mine back up to the tank and can't seal the bucket. It will seal pretty good but not trustable since its sitting on the carpet.

[rschelby]

It isn't a sealed bucket, it is a non-pressurized solution. A powerhead in my sump pushes it up to the bucket (its on a six inch riser) and then it is gravity fed back to the sump. Maybe I didn't realize that you guys were discussing a pressurized version. I tried to use the effluent from my Coralife 125 skimmer, but when I turned that on, I got a six foot geyser out of the stand pipe. :-\

Russell

[redox]

55 gallon rdsb
[IMG][/IMG]

[timrandlerv10]

and the results are?

[timrandlerv10]

and the results are?

[redox]

good great I might even say awsome

[Krypticol]

Check these out, I have 2 of these, one is for top off and I'm thinking of doing an RSDB with the other. They are tough, air and water tight, and the lid scews down and seals.

Ebay Store: Ontario Recycling
First item for sale:
This is a 10 gallon capacity drum that is 18” high X 14” in diameter. It has a 11 ½ inch opening with a Screw top lid with a rubber O-Ring so they are water tight, air tight; and there is an ear to place a Tamper Tell Seal. WEIGHS LESS THAN 4 POUNDS.
These are UN Approved Containers # 1H2/X48/S/ 05. This designation says it is a plastic drum with screw top and good for shipping anything anywhere in the world, including hazardous materials.

These are VERY Heavy Duty.

USES: Bio-Diesel Fuel, Canoe Barrel, Animal Food Storage, Hazardous Waste, Shipping, Storage, Ammunition Storage - remember - it is air tight. RDSB!!

By the way, I have absolutely no affiliation with this seller, I am just a customer that thought you folks with similar interests as me might like to check these out!
Have a great reef!

[Nomadic]

Hi Folks

I`ve been out of the loop for a good while but, i`ve been keeping tabs on this site. I moved about 1.5 years ago into what will be my home. I`m building much of it myself, hence my reef has gone into holding mode for that time. However, i will now have a nearly 400 sq foot area for a fishtank room in my daylighted basement. "The Tank", itself, is a standard 150 gal which is going to be behind a Bar. This tank is going to be replaced by a 155 gal reef rdy bow front, as it will conform to the shape of the bar.
After reading this thread on RDSBs, i`m convinced it`s the way to go. My holding tank is a 150 gal Rubbermaid holding tank. The type you can buy at a feed store. It comes with a built in bulkhead and a place to tap out another on the otherside. I`ll either use this tank as an equipment sump,(bare bottom), or buy a 300 Gal Rubbermaid and use that. Either way, the holding tank will have my skimmer,ETSS 600,(it`s old,Pat pending is hand carved on the back heh...i used to help make them in his basement ...). Anyway, the overflow from the Bow will go into the sump.
Some of this will be taken up by the skimmer and gravity fed into a 5 gal RDSB bucket. Each year, i plan to add an additional 5 gal Bucket until i have 4 total, daisy chained together. The discharge from the RDSB Bucket will then be dumped right back into the sump. An Iwaki 55 will return to the tank. Yet another pump,(LG MDQ 3-SC), will supply flow to a Fuge that will have a 6" DSB. This DSB will be devided up into 12 compartments using simple plastic windowscreen. This way i can change 1 compartmet out every 2 months, when the time comes to do so. I have 900Lbs of SD playsand which i will draw from for the RDSBs and DSBs. Now here is where i ask question and like to have some advice.
1) what to do with the old standard, undrilled, hvy as hell glass tank? Use it as a fuge? I`d have to elevate it 4' + to let it gravity feed into the main, i don`t want to kill any of the critters by having them go through a pump back to the main. Or, i can use either the 150 Rubbermaid as a Fuge, or the 300 i may buy.? Id have to look at it through the top to view, but i`ts a hell of alot lighter, trust worthy, predrilled and the surface area on those holding tanks is huge. Plus its shilded from stray light, as i will light it on a night cycle to help offset Ph swings.
2) SD sand in a RDSB is good, you want an inert substrate. However, My main will also have a DSB with 6" of SD, devided by 12 compartments. My point is this, the purpose of a DSB ether in a Fuge or your Main, is to create a stable envirnment for the critters the live "in" the sand. Reason being ,that you want them,(in the Main, to get rid of Detritus build up), which they will do nicely. In the Fuge, to do the same, plus Breed to help feed your main. Why then, would you use Araganite sand as part of your substrate? As this desolves, it creates a static envirnment for the critters living in that subtrate and thus stresses them to the point that they will not thrive well. Besides, if your Araganite is desolving, doesn`t that indicate that there is something seriously wrong with your tank in the first place, that the Ph should drop that low whereby desolving the Araganite?
Later on, i will plumb in a frag tank, deviding 50% of the Fuge output and diverting it to the Frag tank, then have the output from the Frag tank rejoin the flow from the Fuge, back to the main. Even later on,(and also,also"WIK"), i`ll plumb in a Mangrove to the living room up stairs cause i think they are really cool.
All your testing is good, i`m happy to see positive results. However, before you test, you have a set Nitrate level right?
Why then, aside from standard good husbandry practices, would you all a sudden go in to super husbandry mode after installing your new RDSB bucket?? Woulden`t that skew the actual results?? If you want acurate results, keep doing the husbandry practices you have been doing and when you add the RDSB, THEN faithfully test your water without doing anything extra. How can you expect to get a percise idea of what you RDSB is doing, if you then start doing all this extra stuff after? As your RDSB kicks in, you`ll see your Nitrate level slow down it`s climb, or stop right?? Either way, it should give you a new set point to work off of. From their, approach it from a logical level.
When i`m finally at the point of restarting my tank, i`ll do this first.
I now have well water,(i`ll have it tested). From there, i`ll decide how i`m going to use my RO/DI.
2) I`ll decide what brand of salt i`ll use, and as i make it up, i`ll airate and treat the RO/DI water if it comes to that. Then i`ll let that new salt water age a bit.
3) Scrub all your new containers with fresh made salt water, 6-7 times. I made that mistake once,(my poor snails).
4) i `ll set up a evap top off system....somehow, this will stablize my salinity. Then i`ll mix up fresh Kalk and drip in or invest in a reactor.
5) Baste or power blast your LR, get that Detritus down to your DSB crits to eat.
These are just some of the basic good husbandry practices you can adopt OR then try one at a time to see if that makes your Nitate level go down after. There`s no point in saying your RDSB dosen`t work, if you can take a turkey baster and blow out 5 lbs of Detritus form a single piece of LR .
So, please, tell me what you think of the new setup i`ll be making, and if you have any ideas i`d love to hear them. I do have one more question. From what i read the "Flow-over type RDSB in a standard 5 Gal bucket is good for about 2 years. I ruled out the "flow-over"/"flow-through"combo type of RDSB because it would make my setup more complicated and touchy but, does anyone know just how much longer than 2 years a "flow-over/flow-through" combo RDSB will last vs. a Reg. "flow-over"? If it will at least double the time or better, maybe it would worth the effort.

Thanks
Nomadic aka Tony

[Smokie 1118]

Has anyone ever lost their tank because the DSB released bad gasses?

[timrandlerv10]

tony-
I dont know where, and hopefully someone will chime in with that answer, but a lot of recent research has been saying (if i understood it) that things arent getting chopped up between fuge and main--some of the larger amphipods, but not the majority of them, and even the chopped ones are making good food. we are building a 55g sump below our 75, and felt ok with that after seeing several other set ups that were very similar.

best of luck,

tim

[the other tang]

I have read this entire thread, and have never read anyone who had a horror story. There are sceptics saying it could happen but most of them have never tired it. Besides this is the same thing as a dsm in a fuge that is widely accepted as natural filtration.If it did happen it would be a set up failure the theory is sound. ie if you dump a bunch of food and a critter ot two into the dsb nature will run its course, if you filter it then your good to go.

[Safedad]

Interesting discussion. My nitrates are coming down slowly but not always directly down - a little bit of a roller coaster. Keeping a reef tank isn't static (I don't think this addiction ever gets fed for long) so a "lab" test with no changes has little practical value. The question for me is will it work with my ups and downs. If the answer over the long term is yes, I am a happy camper. I want to be able to try something new and have the rdsb buffer the change. I have gone from 80 down to ten up to 40 down to 20 and watching. I haven't had the hair algae that I had last year. My coralline algae is coming back and spreading. I am comfortable adding a coral when a get a good buy ($5 for a piece of Montipora Digitata this weekend). I hope to add a refugium this spring. I figure with my TBPC carbon with Right Now bacteria, rdsb, and a refugium but no protein skimmer, I should have a large capacity to carry plenty of fish.

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by Smokie 1118
Has anyone ever lost their tank because the DSB released bad gasses?

this is the best part of RDSB. IF you have any problems you just disconnect it. i stick my nose in the bucket every week or so, any smell and i would just shut the valve and remove it from the system.

[the other tang]

Safedad, I do think that is exactly what the rsdb does. Add a safety net to buffer spikes if it is sized right. There are those on here that could explain in detail the bacteria growth rates involved, i am not one of those. It makes sense to think a seeded bed sized for say a 60g running on a 40g tank would have headroom for increased levels should they occur such as a critter dying in the lr where you can't see it. It should be capable of dealing with it fairly quickly once the food supply/nitrate level raises to feed the bacteria.

Just for giggles what is the ppm level of your top off water? ro/di?

Like anyone alse on here I am going to strongly reccomend a good skimmer, that will certainly help.

420, great screen name. I have never smelled that when the rsdb was running only after sitting static for over a week. I believe the effects of just taking it off line are unknown, but it sounds like a fairly big change if it's been running a while. The change might be much better though than the effects of the sulphur.

[a4twenty]

Originally posted by the other tang
..... I have never smelled that when the rsdb was running only after sitting static for over a week. I believe the effects of just taking it off line are unknown, but it sounds like a fairly big change if it's been running a while. The change might be much better though than the effects of the sulphur.

when a DSB start going bad there is a strong sulphur / rotten egg smell that occurs before the big crash. so there is time to remove the RDSB form the loop before it crashes, as long as you catch it


with the sudden removal there would definitely be a huge spike in nitrates, depending on your system. when i first put my RDSB online ( a year ago ) my nitrates were holding strong @ 20ppm. since then i have at least doubled my bioload and i had my worst nitrate spike ( last weekend ) of 1 ppm. this was totally my fault, i missed last months water change . i think the nitrates could be controlled with water changes until another RDSB could be set up and cycled though.

[the other tang]

gotcha, unfortunately mine didn't run long enough to have any smell. I know it's a bad thing, I just wish mine had lasted longer. I attempted a sealed bucket but gave up till i drill the next tank.

[percula99]

I set up my RDSB a few months ago and was running with nitrates over 50ppm all the time. I tried everything to get them down and nothing worked. Since the RDSB my nitrates are almost undetectable. I used a 17 gallon Rubbermaid Roughneck container and put 180 pounds of aragonite sand in it. It is eleven inches deep. I had a problem with a rut being dug out by the water entering the container so I made a spray bar out of PVC. I use a Mag5 with a pre-filter attached to feed water to the RDSB. The RDSB is in the laundry room next to my tank room, so I had to drill holes in the wall to run the hoses through. There is always a cover on, but I took it off so you can see how it works. I hope this helps somebody out.

[ken and kathy]

This helps me out ken was just telling me, that this would help my 180 on its nitrate problems.

kathy

[percula99]

I'm glad it helps you Kathy. A couple more points if I may. My sump is on the ground under my tank so I raised the RDSB on bricks, under the garbage bags that you see sticking out under the RDSB. The Mag5 pumps water up, and is controlled with a ball valve to make sure I get just the right amount of water. My return hole is drilled slightly lower to allow water to be gravity fed back into the sump. Good luck.

[dendro982]

I somehow missed a part about cycling this remote sandbed - how to start it without plumbing to the main tank until ammonia spike does down?
Why I'm expecting ammonia:
Last week I assembled the new 5g tank with the water and LR from established tank, only 5 LB on CaribSea bagged live sand were new - there was ammonia growth in a day.

[mr.wilson]

Originally posted by dendro982
I somehow missed a part about cycling this remote sandbed - how to start it without plumbing to the main tank until ammonia spike does down?
Why I'm expecting ammonia:
Last week I assembled the new 5g tank with the water and LR from established tank, only 5 LB on CaribSea bagged live sand were new - there was ammonia growth in a day.

If you have ammonia in one day, you should test your sand and source (tank) water.

With only 5 gallons of water, you could easily change the water daily for a week to keep it down. Move a few more rocks, or an aging carbon or mechanical filter to that tank to assure you have a viable bacteria culture.

Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria populate detritus attached to a stable site, not the site itself, so transfer the established media carefully. With no load on the RDSB you should have no ammonia.

An older established sand bed may be rich in bound phosphates, but absorption media will remove it. Your LFS or fellow reefer should be able to supply you with a portion of their established sand bed. This will cut months off of your waiting time, and provide a phosphate export and renewed buffering capacity to the donor tank.

[dendro982]

Ammonia in the tank-donor's water is zero, the new tank was not fed this day, then the CaribSea Ocean Direct live sand is a source of this ammonia, right? How else can I test the sand?

Just bought sugar-sized aragonite sand (Aragamax) and more of Ocean Direct live sand, for DSB in a bucket. What will be the safe procedure, causing no ammonia in the main tank - just connect the newly filled DSD bucket to the sump, or fill with water, place there heater and a pump and wait for a couple of days (doubtfully, that temperature will be held - there are no significant water movement within the sand)?

[mr.wilson]

It looks like Caribbsea might add ammonia and water to the sand to feed the bacteria alleged bacteria culture.

If ammonia is still present when it reaches the end user, it's safe to assume there is no viable nitrifying bacteria in the bag. With no nitrifying bacteria, there is no place for denitrifying bacteria to fit into the food chain.

Perhaps the include ammonium chloride to help start the cycling process for a new tank. The anaerobic conditions in the bag don't allow for nitrification, so the ammonia remains intact.