Advice for my fish list.. 480g display, 1030g system

[thirschmann]

Hello everyone. First let me tell you about my tank.

I will have a 5'x5'x30" SPS dominated reef tank which a little less then 480g. The filtration will consist of the following
-180g sump
-210g refugium and DSB
-120g Additional water storage and mixing tank
-40g breeder.
about 1030g total system volume.

I will be running a Deltec 1003 w/ self cleaning head 24/7. Further more I have 2 fluidized deltec reators, one for carbon and the other for phosban. I plan on running a continous water change system out of a 100g reserver drum. This along with my 210g refugium should help me keep a high bioload.

The rockwork will be designed to resemble a canyon with no rockwork higher then 16" to allow for coral growth and swimming room. I plan on running a BB or SS tank with a 55 to 65 times turnover rate.

Those are the basics of my system. If you would like to know more just click on the little red house to get to my build thread.

I am upgrading from a 120g that I have had setup for 1.5yrs. Not that long but I feel that the fish I had in my previous aquarium definetely got along well. The big guys I will be transfering will be a clown tang, regal blue, and a sailfin. The little guys include to bangaii cardinals, 3 false percula clownfish, 3 lyretail anthias, a four line wrasse, and a green mandarin goby. These fish have lived in harmony for quite some time. I know that they are not fully matured so they may get more aggressive, especially the tangs, but I am confident that with my current heavy feeding regiment I can avoid any agression in the future.


Now about my fish list for my new tank. I want a few larger show fish with 2 large schools and a few other little guys thrown in for variety. I know there will be a lot of discuss about the sailfin and the clown tangs but I have become attached to these fish and they aren't up for debate.

Show fish
-Bellus Angel
-Hopefully a pair of crosshatch triggers, the stars of my new tank.
-Regal blue Tang
-Sailfin Tang
-Clown Tang
-Achilles Tang
-Chevron Tang

Schools
-6-8 Lyretail anthias
-12-15 Oranged Lined Cardinals or Red Cardinals if I can get my hand on that many.

Cleaners
-2 six line wrasses
-2 Neon blue cleaner gobies

Other
-2 spotted mandarin gobies
-3 clown gobies (1 green, 1 panda, 1 brown so that mated pairs don't form which can hurt my acros)
-2 leaporad wrasses
-2 highfin perchlets
-1 convict blenny



The is 42 fish as the list stands today. I have distilled this list down already and am looking for further advice. I have tried to consider the individual territories of the tank these fish will occupy and have tried to take swimming room into account.

[thirschmann]

I would like to add that obviously no fish will be added until what conditions stabalize and all fish have cleared 6 to 8 weeks of quarantine (depending on the fish) in approximately 20 different 40g breeder tanks a LFS is nice enough to let me use. I will take as long as I have to to add these fish to my tank to minimize territorial issues and water quality fluctuations.

Thanks and productive criticism only please.

[kodyboy]

I can not see how you would have any problem with that fish list in the set up you are describing (very jealous by the way), sounds awesome!
With that amount of space why not try for mated pairs of some of the angels, such as the bellus/regal if you can find them.
As far as schooling cardinalfish go I like threadfin or bluesided the best, they schoal really tight, almost schooling. You could easily have a large group of those, say 36 or so. They would look spectacular swimming in a group through your corals.
Another fish that people often overlook is the chalk bass. They are simply stunning in groups, peaceful, hardy and inexpensive as well.
I have also had luck with groups of royal grammas, say 12 or so, forming a harem and not killing each other. A group of RGs upside-down under a ledge is quite cool.
Fridmani pseudochromis will also form a group and are actually rather peaceful. Springerii and sanjkei (my spelling is wrong) will also group.
These species tend to all group around the structures so they would not impact the swimming room of the other fish.
Just some ideas, don't often get to think about a tank of your magnitude

[SDguy]

From all the accounts I have read, that clown tang could very well be a problem when it gets older, even in this size system. They just get so mean...

[kodyboy]

true clown tangs can get mean, but in a heavily aquascaped 480 he has the best chance possible to keep one. I would add it last however, as SDguy says they can be mean...........

[SDguy]

Originally posted by kodyboy
true clown tangs can get mean, but in a heavily aquascaped 480 he has the best chance possible to keep one.

Maybe if it was a long rectangle, but a square tank....I don't think so.

[thirschmann]

kodyboy - I has thinking about a pir of bellus angels. I will look into your cardinal suggestions. Looking forward to these little guys schooling aorund my tank. I will also look into the chalk bass, another cool little schooling fish, thanks for the suggestion.
I'm staying away from pseudochromis in general, after having a few I won't be keeping them again.

SDguy - I do value your opinion but I will be keeping the clown tang unless it becomes detrimental to the health of itself or its tank mates. Maybe I got lucky with the one I have but it has been a model citizen and I am looking forward to keeping it for many more years to come.


Opinions and comments are appreciated and welcome.

[SDguy]

No worries, as long as you have a backup plan No one likes to read the my-clown-tang-just-killed-all-my-other-fish thread...

[thirschmann]

I try to always have a backup... I have a nice home for a Clown Tang planned out if I have a problem with him. I believe that as long as I keep him extra fat and happy I won't have any problems.

Thanks for your input... its appreciated.

[kodyboy]

no problem, I think cardinalfish are under-ratted little guys
I have had really good luck with tank-raised pseudochromis, fridmani, springeri and sanjkei. All are model citizens with firefish and fairy wrasse. I think the tank raised specimens are much less aggressive than wild caught ones.

[Bret61081]

I think youd be very pleased with the threadfin cardinals! I have 5 in my 95G tank and they stay right be each other in a nice school....at night they depart to different areas of the tank...but are always together when the lights are on! Very cool fish. You might want to stray away from the 6lines too...expecially with a 4line already. I had a friend who added a 6line to help with bristle worms and his 4line killed it within a matter of days. Also the panda goby...you do realise they are about a 1/4" right! they are Tiny! Not something you will ever see after you add it! my LFS put a few in their show tank and finally saw one when we were moving corals one day. For the Leopard, I would try to find a male-famale pair. I tried to mix species twice and my orante leopard killed 2 bipartus on 2 occasions. Just a little warming! Post pics though when you start filling! Cant wait to see them!

[thirschmann]

Thanks bret61081 - My 6line and 4line have been getting along in my 120g. But I will opt for one of the two in my display and one in my frag tank when I upgrade.
Yeah the clown gobies are tiny but AWESOME. I saw them in a 1000g reef aquarium in Monte Carlo and they are really really cool. As long as I see one of 3 every once in a while hanging out in my acro coral heads I will be a happy camper. Plus there are so tiny they will never even contribute to the bioload, and plus.

I am looking for a pair of leopard wrasses, love the way the female, male pair look together. Thanks for the info on the wrasses, the only ones I plan on mixing are the leopard and the 4 or 6lines.

[b.branscombe]

Slightly off topic, but have you ever had a 30" tall tank before? My 220g is 72x24x30tall, and it is a huge pain in the arse. I can't pick up stuff resting on my 1" sand bed without getting my whole arm and a good portion of my chest wet. I am building a new large tank and am getting it made 26" tall instead, so I don't go nuts. Maybe you have long arms, or don't mind the hassle, but you owe it to yourself to find a 30" tall tank and see if you can deal with it.

[thirschmann]

I have not actually worked on a 30" tank but before I made the decision to go with a tank this large I built a replica out of cardboard. It is challenging to access some parts of the tank, but with a bare bottom or shallow sand bed I could do most routine cleaning with a long siphon hose or powerhead. I have also come up with something that looks like scaffolding that I can put over my tank so that I can lay down on it and access any part of the tank I want. Hopefully I won't have to do that to often.

Thank you for your input on the tank depth, I know that it will be challenging but I look forward to taking it on.




Now... any further opinions or advice as to stocking would be appreciated. If anyone can think of some unique or interesting fish that I should consider, I'm all ears. Whatever is reef compatible and won't demolish my SPS population will be considered.

Thanks again.

[thirschmann]

btw - I want to have more fish in my cardinal school. How many more of those little guys do you think I can get away with. Is 30 still a reasonable goal?

[kodyboy]

I am sure you could get away with 100 if you wanted in a 480! With your total water volume of over 1000 gallons a shoal of cardinals is not really going to be a problem. I think you will have swimming space issues before bioload issues in your system. I think it will all depend on aquascaping and other species. If you go with what you have on the list above you could easily have a shoal of 50 cardinals. Again I think the problem will be more swimming space of the shoal than bioload. I REALLY want to see this as it progresses

[thirschmann]

well then you are invited to follow my build thread. I am sketchup work of my entire tank design including aquascaping within its pages. Please chim in on anything you find needs changing.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

updated rockwork can be found on page page 2, just ignore the incorporated tunzes in those pictures.

[thirschmann]

thanks for your input... a school of 35 or 40 would be my max. If I remember correctly a rough way to factor in swimming room is using the 1" per 5 gallons rule of thumb. That's a little hard to use in my application and that would limit my fish list significantly as I would only have a total of 96" of total fish length in my tank. I have certainly topped already.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

[kodyboy]

Awesome build thread by the way, love the computer diagrams.
That skimmer is very impressive looking, as are the 4 solaris fixtures
Inches of fish vs. swimming room vs. bioload is a really difficult factor to use as a one inch fish is not 1/12 of a 12 inch fish (probably more like 1/100 or so). A shoal of 35-40 cardinals is probably no more bioload than a 10 inch tang or angel, maybe less. I would look more at each fishes shape, behavior and adult size than total inches. Since you have a 5x5x30" tank I would not put anything in it that grew over 12" in length (besides an eel of course). That is not really hugely limiting of course. Then look at each fish (look at the smaller shoals as one larger fish) and try to keep it at around 16-20 individuals. I could easily see a tank of that size with 16 large tangs swimming around with no problem, or hundreds of small cardinals or something in-between. I personally like the look of lots of little fish in a bigger tank, it looks more natural to me.

[xxseawolf]

Originally posted by b.branscombe
Slightly off topic, but have you ever had a 30" tall tank before? My 220g is 72x24x30tall, and it is a huge pain in the arse. I can't pick up stuff resting on my 1" sand bed without getting my whole arm and a good portion of my chest wet. I am building a new large tank and am getting it made 26" tall instead, so I don't go nuts. Maybe you have long arms, or don't mind the hassle, but you owe it to yourself to find a 30" tall tank and see if you can deal with it.

his tank would be easy to clean. all he has to do is give me a call and i would love to dive in his tank and clean. he might be missing some corals though.

[xxseawolf]

while we are on the subject i have a 135g with a PB tang, purple tang, sixline wrasse, 1 squarespot anthias, coral beauty angel, GS maroon clown, and a marine beta. i was wondering about adding a school of cardinals(if so how many in this tank), and or could i add more squarespot anthias without killing my bioload? i apologize for hijacking this thread.

[jda]

Plan on the crosshatches counting as 6 to 10 fish. They have large appetites and do eat a lot... especially at the 6-9" that they have been coming in. My single 6" crosshatch could/would eat 3 full sized sheets of nori a day. Great fish choice.

I would avoid the leopards unless you plan to have sand an inch or so thick. They like to bury and will kill themselves trying if they cannot.

I am a guy with a "clown tang killed all of my fish" story, so have a plan for that day. Mine happened one morning after I had the fish over a year. You won't have much time when it does happen.

I imagine that you know the lifespan of a cleaner goby? If not, then check it out.

For a taller tank, you can always drain the top 12" out of the tank into the sump for maint. This is very easy with just a simple hole and ball valve about 12" below the waterline. You will need a bigger sump though, but it would probably be worth it.

[thirschmann]

kodyboy - Thanks for the positive feedback, good to hear things are going in the right direction. Like the idea of a inbetween as well, I also think it will look for natural. Thanks for the advice on bio-load vs. " vs. swimming room. I also think its the later of these three that I have to be concerned about.



xxseawolf - I will charge admission plus equipment rental for the scuba gear. But you are welcome to dive in my tank... jk . My experience with those cardinals is at mest extremely limited, so maybe someone else can answer that for you. No worries on the hijacking, that's what these threads are for, sharing of information.



jda - Not so worried about bio-load or feeding habits but how will the crosshatches deal with swimming room, I just want all my little fish to be happy .

As far as the leopard wrasses go, eventhough I was planning a shallow sand bed i was thinking about putting a plastic container with 3" of sand hidden with some rocks to help them out. Would they stick to this DSB area or would they still try to dive into the SSB and hurt themselves? Beautfiul fish so I want to try to keep them as long as I can keep them thriving and happy.

hmmm... another bad clown tang story. Maybe I'll but a shock collar on him and if he misbehaves I'll show him who's boss. What part of your fish population did it go after first? definetly concerning.

As far as I know the cleaner goby life span is 1 to 2 years. If that is there natural lifespan I can live with it, if it is caused by aquarium conditions then that's not so great. Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks for the hint on draining the tank, will use that as a last resort if necessary. I could also use one of the closed loop drains to drain the tank down that far.

[Serioussnaps]

If you are looking at cardinals I suggest apogon leptacanthus. One of my favs.

Cheers

ps...skip the clown tang...they suck anwyays

[jda]

My clown grew 6-7" in a year and all of a sudded decided to kill a queen and blueline trigger. It would have succeeded if I hadn't pulled them out. One night, all was well. The next day, the queen and blueline were beat to shreds and the clown was going back for more. They had been fine for a year or more with absolutely no issues. I put it in the sump at the LFS and a local took it a little later for a species only plywood tank. When I left college, it still would not allow any tankmates (did not try them all) and the guy still had it in by it's self.

If my crosshatches were any indication, I think that a 60x60x30 tank would be good sized for a pair. You could always wait for a 7 and 6 inch pair instead of getting a 11 and 10 inch pair. I think that the tank size is fine if you can handle the bioload. They are one of my favorites.

My other favorite is a pair of watanabei angelfish.