ReefKeeping Mag Goniopora Article Review

[justincognito]

i meant say "None of us did."

[Flatlander]

Heck, we all did a food stew. Nothing new. I,m sure I had threads on it many years ago, posted here someplace. I fed my soft corals, {no Goniopora}, a mush. My corals grew like crazy and I kept many aquarists in soft corals from propagation. Some of the larger were in my old 170, {April/01, TOTM}, {seeing as everyone else is tooting someones horn, .

However, I still like the "research" and articles, these aquarists are doing. Even though I still dont keep any Goniopora, I like to read the articles and threads from the above mentioned authors. Keep up the good work, as our "hobby", can only benefit.

[JENnKerry]

Yeah, our "stew" is nothing spectacular. It's just what all of our corals like. Our LPS love it, as do the fish. The gonis eat it but until recently, we've only been feeding the gonis the LL. It's a trial and error thing to see what they like. For us, it's the LL, nothing else.

[shane 1111]

Originally posted by justincognito
.
I have to go my kids are fighting.

you have kids! you look mad young!
how old are you. i thought you were around 25

[Aqua_expert19]

Originally posted by JENnKerry
I'm sure a newbie that got suckered into buying a goniopora will have that much better of a chance at getting one to survive.

ME!!! i bought mine a year ago and it has been abused and mistreated and it has grown and thrived for some time i love my gonni. Sorry ive been no help

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by justincognito
Very interesting thread. I am a little flattered but i'm not in this to fan my ego.

Really? Then why did you and your friend obi-dad, who was the first person to post a reply here, spam 10 different threads (or forums) here on RC annoucing your article? …on the same day together.

Originally posted by justincognito
First off i have only been to Jen and Kerry's website but not Reefartist.

I find that very hard to believe.

Originally posted by justincognito
Seconnd I have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations.

TAKEN FROM YOUR POST HERE ON RC 6/15/05:
"I have had success with about 6-8 different Goniopora for about 3 years."

TAKEN FROM YOUR ARTICLE:
“For the first two and a half years, I did no direct feeding of the colonies except for occasional additions of phytoplankton.�

So you had your colonies maybe 3 years and did no direct feeding of the colonies except for occasional additions of phytoplankton for the first two and a half years, then say you have spent well over a year using many different foods, noting reactions, making careful observations?

So how long have you really been experimenting with Goniopora by feeding small foods, stews, liquid life, anything? 4 months maybe?

Again,

TAKEN FROM THE ARTICLE:
“Over the last nine months I have begun adding Kent Iron supplement weekly as per directions on the bottle.�

TAKEN FROM YOUR POST HERE ON RC 6/15/05:
"I also just started iron supplementing. Seem to help."

Justin, please get your stories straight.....

I will stick with what I have said here in this thread:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry at www.reefcraze.com (using Liquid Life Marine Plankton. site published in April) and myself at www.goniopora.org (utilizing the "stew" of mashed cyclopeeze and a number of other foods. site published in July).
-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.
-- “Credit needs to be given where credit is due.�
-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

[shane 1111]

how many different types do you keep and frag?
one maybe 2

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
I will stick with what I have said here in this thread:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people.

Eric Borneman and Julian Sprung.

Let's get it right, shall we? You're the first to ever devise a mush?

Except for the addition of LL [newer on the market ...] - I haven't heard of any novel change to coral mush.
Can I say I have a radical new version, since I put Oyster Eggs in mine? Should everyone who feeds any mixed coral food now have to credit me, as I added something?

[shane 1111]

Eric Borneman and Julian Sprung were the ones that need credit.
and i have ben to JENnKerry's site. but i have never herd of you ReefArtist. what have you done?
i have never seen a post with you in it ReefArtist

[Obi-dad]

I also had never been to ReefArtist's site, nor heard of him until he posted this thread. This thread comes off like ReefArtist is very jealous that someone else wrote about feeding goniopora.

[Steven Pro]

Just for a frame of reference, I know Martin Moe published a mush food recipe in his 1982 The Marine Aquarium Handbook: Beginner to Breeder. That is a little over two decades ago and there may have been others. That is simply the oldest book in my reference library.

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by Obi-dad
I also had never been to ReefArtist's site, nor heard of him until he posted this thread. This thread comes off like ReefArtist is very jealous that someone else wrote about feeding goniopora.

Originally posted by Obi-dad
ReefArtist, a lot of people here on RC have read the posts by you and by JenNKerry, and would acknowledge your contribution to the care of goniopora knowledge

This makes a lot of sense......

[mhurley]

[flamealert]

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
Let's get it right, shall we?
You're the first to ever devise a mush?

OK.

Actually, YES. A Goniopora mush. Why do you keep pointing back to Eric B.? Do you think he invented the idea of a mush? or how about Martin M. do you think he invented the idea of a mush? I am not trying to take credit for the idea of a mush. I guess you didn't read my last reply to you. It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume.

And I think you are entirely missing the point of my post.........a lot of goniopora foods and feeding research has gone on in the last 8 1/2 months. All I am trying to point out is that Justin has built on this research. What is wrong with that? This research has obviously helped Justin's attempts at propagating. I think his closer look at individual species is very interesting, but you don't go from DSB and phytoplankton feedings to target feeding specific foods that Goniopora will show a positive feeding response to out of nowhere.
There is a link between the "old" method of keeping Goniopora and the "new" method of keeping Goniopora.'
I hope that makes my intentions more clear.

For example:
I am currently trying to find the minimum amount of iron that a few species of goniopora needs in order to keep their polyps extended. Do you think I am going to write an article about how I did this with iron and I did that with iron, without mentioning the awesome work of Julian Sprung? I am merely trying to build on it and respect the fact that he identified a single element that goniopora needed. Finding foods that goniopora will and can eat is very similar to finding that single element.

[Obi-dad]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
This makes a lot of sense......

My error, I was actually referring to having read JenNKerry, I hadn't been to your website.

All I am trying to point out is that Justin has built on this research.

You don't know this to be true.


To repeat what I said before, no one is disagreeing that you have made posts about feeding goniopora. What we are disagreeing with is you taking 99.9% of the credit of the advancements in feeding goniopora.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by ReefArtist
It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume.

Could you please expand upon this statement? What research did you do? Did you search through the scientific literature to find gut content analysis of Goniopora species in the wild? What are we talking about here?

[justincognito]

In a way i am glad this is sparking so much debate since it brings interest to the subject. Rock stars love publicity even if its for trashing a hotel room or getting arrested, it all serves to get them put on the map.

Reefartist, as for feeding and stuff. I have had some colonies well over 3 and half years. That means for two and half years i did not feed, then about a year ago i started feeding. That makes for over 3 years in captivity and no direct feeding for 2 and a half.
As for just starting iron. Well for me 9 months isn't that long for trying a brand new husbandry regimen.

And in all fairness to you and Jen and Kerry, but 8 and half months and 18 months are not all that long respectively. I use the word success in my article regarding my work with much thought and consideration. I feel even three years is just a flash in the pan for the potential longevity of these corals. I hads come to the conclusion as have many others long ago that Goniopora where starving in captivity. The work we are all doing has helped proved this to be true.

I cannot in terms of adding the solid scientific knowledge about these coral refernce websites or threads. I can however reference researched and peer reveiwed articles.

Much credit to Obi-Dad. He is very enthuthiastic about his corals and his posting. He has kept one of my Goniopora for a year himself. I post about my article on threads because i pop in from time to time and my article is extremely valid for the questions being raised by other hobbyists.

In short we all need to lose the egos. If you have thought of something chances are 10 other people have thought about it or done it first. I have found that out myself. Dozens of people are successful with Goniopora. MAny people for years have been using food stews for years on many different corals. Perhaps what i have done new is that i have painstakenly researched the subject, ID all the colonies i wrote about and did detailed studies on. I did not include the other 30 i have because i have not IDed them and have less notes on them. I will be doing a food study comparing growth rate with different foods and combinations. That study will be submitted for peer reveiw for scientists validate the work.
I really wish i didn't have to put my energy into this. I, like many of our fellow Reefers, love coral and want them to grow. I even wrote a song about Goniopora because i love them so much. I acknowledge everyone in this hobby who has freely shared their failures and successes has allowed us all to be more successful.

[JENnKerry]

Well said Justin

Just so you all know, I'm staying out of this one

[John Kelly]

"It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume."

Originally posted by StevenPro
Could you please expand upon this statement?

Sure

What research did you do?

I have said this before in previous threads; Goniopora don't just open up and eat a steak dinner.

Can you recognize what the feeding response looks like among all of the other strange behaviors?

Have you figured out what triggers the feeding response?

How do you know Goniopora are even consuming the food you are trying if you don't witness it actually consuming it?

If you don't witness Goniopora consuming food, then why would you keep feeding it?

Many foods Goniopora will grab and let go of; others they attempt to consume.
Why is that?
How do you get past that?

Some polyps may try to consume a food that another polyp on the same colony just lets go of; it seems like a big mystery.
Why is that?

How do you keep the food concentrated enough to benefit Goniopora once you have determined that it will consume it?

The tentacles of many Goniopora are in such crummy shape when they are purchased that the food you thought would work can't be held and consumed.
Why can't they hold the food?
So what do you do then?

I have answered every one of those questions, and that is kind of research it takes to figure out what foods Goniopora can and will eat. It takes more than just 4 or 5 months of food experiments to answer those questions and formulate a list of foods that will work; much less formulate a "stew" of them. I have never seen a positive feeding response to phytoplankton from the 6 or 7 different species that I have tried it on. From early on, I have not believed phytoplankton was even a food for them; but was found in the the gut as result of them trying to consume other foods......although, I still have questions about it. That is why I am doing bare bottom experiments now.

These questions would be EXTREMELY difficult to find the answers to if you were working with smaller polyped/ smaller mouthed/ shorter tentacled species.
The only way I know for certain that smaller polyped species will consume cyclopeeze is because I use diluted forms of my "stew" to feed them; otherwise, good luck actually witnessing it. My stew is designed to hold the foods in it. It took a lot of research to figure out what foods a goniopora would or could consume AND how to get them to consume them. You don't just go from dosing the tank with phytoplankton to feeding a list of small foods without A LOT of research.

Did you search through the scientific literature to find gut content analysis of Goniopora species in the wild?

No, I did not search through the scientific literature..........I went straight to the person who did it (at least the only one I know of) and have had direct correspondence with her. I also obained permission to use a couple of her responses on my web site. Actually, she proof read the paragraph that I used her references in and O.K.ed it for use.

What are we talking about here?

We are talking about what I have been saying all along:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry and myself.
-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.
-- “Credit needs to be given where credit is due.�
-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

[John Kelly]

Originally posted by justincognito
In a way i am glad this is sparking so much debate since it brings interest to the subject. Rock stars love publicity even if its for trashing a hotel room or getting arrested, it all serves to get them put on the map.

In short we all need to lose the egos.

I'm not the one racing to be a rock star. Nor am I the one that puts my initials on the frags I sell. I have nothing to gain from it other than the satisfaction that I have made a contribution. All is done on my own time and money. My ego is not bruised and I am not jealous.

I will be doing a food study comparing growth rate with different foods and combinations. That study will be submitted for peer reveiw for scientists validate the work.

It is interesting that you have been working on propagation for the last "about" 3 something something years; now, all of the sudden you are "racing" to do a food study? What prompted this new direction?

I have already pointed out in my previous post a few LARGE contradictions in what you say. I have identified more, but have decided to cease. My point has been made and I know you have received it; everyone else here can see it too. I have documented everything I have done with times, dates, photos, notes etc... I would suggest that you start doing the same. Saying "About X years" just doesn't cut it. I do respect the work you have done with propagation. The advancements of Goniopora foods and feeding by a couple of people have now made it much more successful for you.

[John Kelly]

.

[km133688]

Hi all, my turn...

To, John, you are obviously quit knowedgeable. The effective list of questions you give us above is enough to demonstrate this. I would be very interested in your producing an in-depth article on what you know and have done. Please, if you are waiting for the right moment, I'd say now is about right.

Also, please post your website address so we can all have a look. If we ain't been there yet, it sounds like a place we should be heading to soon.

As for Justin, I count him among my list of gently known friends. He is my main fish guy and his boss's store is my main store (as are many posting in this thread from CT.). Please let me assure you for what it is worth; I can state without hesitation that there could never have been any malice on his part in any of his writings. He is just not that kind of guy. In fact I think you can see this from his replys. Nope, you won't convince any of us who know him personally that he purposely left credit to you out of his article.

To Justin, when is the album gonna be out? You guys have a cool and diverse sound and I want a piece of it for my morning rides into work.

To Shane, yeah, I thought he was early 20s too, hehe. Guess it comes from all that good living. Or maybe he has been eating a little of that goni-mush on the side. Hmm... what is good for the corals is good for the coral keeper?

Kevin

[shane 1111]

Justin is a very very nice guy.

[Obi-dad]

Originally posted by ReefArtist

We are talking about what I have been saying all along:
-- 99.9% of the foods and feeding advancements have come from 2 people. JenNKerry and myself.

Not correct. I think someone's ego is getting the better of his critical thinking.

Originally posted by ReefArtist

-- If it were not for these advancements; I believe that there would not be a "Goniopora Care and Propagation" article.

How can you be so certain you are the only one to be able to come up with feeding?

Originally posted by ReefArtist

-- I think he purposely left out any reference to my work and Jen/Kerry's too in an attempt to sound as if he is braking all this "new ground".

This is just getting to be mailicious against Justin. I think it is time to reconsider how you are coming across to all who read this thread.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by Obi-dad
I think it is time to reconsider how you are coming across to all who read this thread.

John, you are making some rather bold claims here. I asked you what research you conducted. To which you repsonded with a host of questions. The only reference you said you found and used was talking to Jen and/or Kerry about what had worked for them. If there is more to it than that (which I think there probably is) please explain or point me/us to somewhere else where you detail your trials.