Our Progress To-Date on New 135RR (Image Intense) - Page 8

stainlessdonkey · #**176** 01/04/2004, 06:52 PM

Very nice setup. Very organized and WELL thought out. One question, about your water storage idea in the basement. I tried that idea a while back using a 30g rubermaid can, filled with salt water with a pump and heater. The problem I ran into was it started to smell after a few weeks. I used RO water too. Had a tight lid on it like yours. Is there something I did wrong or have you found a solution to this?

dmiannay · #**177** 01/04/2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stainlessdonkey
Very nice setup. Very organized and WELL thought out. One question, about your water storage idea in the basement. I tried that idea a while back using a 30g rubermaid can, filled with salt water with a pump and heater. The problem I ran into was it started to smell after a few weeks. I used RO water too. Had a tight lid on it like yours. Is there something I did wrong or have you found a solution to this?

stainlessdonkey,

We appreciate the kind words. Haven't had this system up and running yet so haven't experienced the problem you described. As long as you keep the water circulating and aerated I see no reason why it would start smelling as if stagnant. Did you have powerheads in the containers keeping the water moving?

Anyone else have any ideas?

melev · #**178** 01/04/2004, 07:48 PM

Could be the type of container stainlessdonkey used. I never store saltwater, only RO/DI (10g at a time).

Looks good so far! Can you explain the two 'faucets' above the sump? You might need to insert a short length of pipe in each to control the flow and reduce splashing.

dmiannay · #**179** 01/04/2004, 07:55 PM

The water testing has been a tremendous success! NO LEAKS ANYWHERE... at least not yet

!!! Only problem at this point is the LH overflow level is too high and when I try and restrict the bleed air hole it then starts the up and down girations

I guess I'll have to start playing with the length of the drain pipe extending into the drain side of the sump since airflow restrictions will not correct the level.

That sump is another Marc Levenson (aka melev here at RC) creation and it's functioning flawlessly! Thanks again, Marc

This has been a long and exciting road for Cathy, me, and the girls and we've just a short way left to go. We now expect to get the LS and LR next weekend so we can begin the real adventure!

Thanks for following us along on this amazing journey! We look forward to replicating a bit of God's awesome creation right here in our living room!

dmiannay · #**180** 01/04/2004, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Could be the type of container stainlessdonkey used. I never store saltwater, only RO/DI (10g at a time).

Looks good so far! Can you explain the two 'faucets' above the sump? You might need to insert a short length of pipe in each to control the flow and reduce splashing.

Marc,

Those two "faucets" are the fresh and salt water supply lines from the basement. They work flawlessly. As you can see in the picture in my last post I did install a length of PVC into the faucet to eliminate the splashing. That was part of the plan all along I just didn't have them in the picture a few posts back.

Everything, except the LH overflow is working as planned

melev · #**181** 01/04/2004, 08:03 PM

Doug, rememeber that surface tension of saltwater is different from freshwater, and plumbing that is broken in with 2 weeks of slime coating work better than brand new clean pipe.

Congrats on no leaks, and I'm really glad the sump is working out for you.

stainlessdonkey · #**182** 01/04/2004, 08:22 PM

Hey, I am curious about that piece of pipe-hose you have running from the return pump to the hard pvc. Is that flexible tubing that can be glued into the T fitting or did you heat up a piece of pvc and bend it?

dmiannay · #**183** 01/04/2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stainlessdonkey
Hey, I am curious about that piece of pipe-hose you have running from the return pump to the hard pvc. Is that flexible tubing that can be glued into the T fitting or did you heat up a piece of pvc and bend it?

It's called Spa Flex PVC (Schedule 40) and you can get it at Home Depot or Lowes. I've seen it in 3/4", 1", 1 1/4", and 1 1/2". I used the 1" size in numerous places in our setup. Only problem with Spa Flex is, although it's flexible, it retains the memory of the curve from the spool it's stored on at the store. You have to be careful to install it so the run is fairly well lined up with the set curve of the pipe. All in all it is excellent for aquariums since you virtually eliminate some of the head loss from 45 and 90 PVC couplings.

tor101898 · #**184** 01/05/2004, 12:06 AM

great setup , seems like you've thought of everything. one question, how is the sump setup? is the refugium the one on the right? by the way keep the photos coming.

dmiannay · #**185** 01/05/2004, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tor101898
great setup , seems like you've thought of everything. one question, how is the sump setup? is the refugium the one on the right? by the way keep the photos coming.

Alex,

Thanks for the encouragement! Actually, we're not that smart to have thought of everything on our own

. Finding RC was really the key. We began this quest in late August when we decided to start a reef tank. We discovered RC when surfing and have stayed ever since. There are many very capable and smart folks here with much to offer the novice. Its to them we give the credit for what we've accomplished.

The sump is divided into three sections. From left to right they are drain/skimmer, return, and refugium. All is working great now except for the deluge of water/air bubbles into the drain section. I'll be working during the next week to quiet that down

.

More photos will be coming as we head further down the road! Thanks again for your interest!

Snap-on · #**186** 01/05/2004, 05:58 AM

Nice setup Doug. Eagerly awaiting your updates. I like to think of your project as motivation for the masses.

spanker · #**187** 01/05/2004, 06:00 AM

Setup looks great Doug. I'll look forward to seeing you and Cathy add some life to your tank. Just courious on one thing. I noticed in the picture below you have a HVAC register behind the stand, just wondering if you closed that or not. Plumbing looks great, and I'm glad to hear there are no leaks. A definite plus!

RustySnail · #**188** 01/05/2004, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dmiannay
Only problem at this point is the LH overflow level is too high and when I try and restrict the bleed air hole it then starts the up and down girations I guess I'll have to start playing with the length of the drain pipe extending into the drain side of the sump since airflow restrictions will not correct the level.

Looking at your plumbing; I think I can see a problem that might be the culprit. From the left side you have a series of turns (an elbow and 2 45's to get to the horizontal pipe that runs to the tee and then the ball valve. The extra elbows or 45's and the extra pipe length may be just enough flow restriction to cause the left overflow to not have enough outflow.

To fix it I suggest you put in 3 gate valves; one on each overflow branch and a third at the inlet to the sump (noticing that you have the ball valve partially closed). The gate valves will give you much more precise adjustment of flow at each point. Adjust the final outflow until you are close and then the other two until the flow from the overflows is balanced.

HTH...

-Russ

dmiannay · #**189** 01/05/2004, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snap-on
Nice setup Doug. Eagerly awaiting your updates. I like to think of your project as motivation for the masses.

I appreciate the encouraging words! The more that are motivated the better this hobby will be!

Quote:

Originally posted by spanker
Setup looks great Doug. I'll look forward to seeing you and Cathy add some life to your tank. Just courious on one thing. I noticed in the picture below you have a HVAC register behind the stand, just wondering if you closed that or not. Plumbing looks great, and I'm glad to hear there are no leaks. A definite plus!

Thanks, spanker... and for more than just the kind words! We are anxious as well to get some life in the tank but we have cycle time ahead and will do our level best not to rush anything!

As for the HVAC register... that's a return air vent (actually one of two - the other is located about 2 feet to the left). Are you suggesting that it needs to be closed and that if it isn't, that could be a problem?

Quote:

Originally posted by RustySnail
Setup looks great Doug. I'll look forward to seeing you and Cathy add some life to your tank. Just courious on one thing. I noticed in the picture below you have a HVAC register behind the stand, just wondering if you closed that or not. Plumbing looks great, and I'm glad to hear there are no leaks. A definite plus!

Appreciate the comments. The drain piping all leads left to the left end of the sump. The RH overflow drain crosses the sump to join the LH drain piping before dumping into the sump. Going from right to left along the drain line the first ball valve controls a drain flow into the refugium (not full flow, but slightly more than a trickle) and the second ball valve allows draining water to the sink in the basement when I do water changes.

After a good bit of deliberation I believe the problem is the combined drain piping at the left end is too restrictive to allow the LH overflow to drain at the required rate... hence the higher back pressure causes the LH overflow level to always stay high. The RH overflow stays at the right level all the time since it has less overall back pressure. Anyway, much to consider with possible redesigning the drain piping (larger diameter) and working to quiet the fow into the sump.

melev · #**190** 01/05/2004, 10:18 AM

Again, saltwater flows differently than fresh water. And aged piping works better than new.

You might indeed have to change the part just next to the skimmer, making the drainpipe larger and using a Tee to the smaller ID pipe from the right side. That way all the water coming together in that left pipe would not become restricted.

Before you go to that much trouble, you can try shortening the pipe to 1" above the water level, and slipping on a 90 elbow that is half submerged. This would let air out of the line easily and water pour into the sump. By turning the elbow various directions, you can direct the flow of bubbles in the best directiion to avoid their going right into the bubble trap.

REEFnR6 · #**191** 01/05/2004, 10:46 AM

Doug- will you be able to do water changes with everything running (skimmer, pump, etc.)? You might want to try it while you are still ironing out the plumbing details.

dmiannay · #**192** 01/05/2004, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Again, saltwater flows differently than fresh water. And aged piping works better than new.

Before you go to that much trouble, you can try shortening the pipe to 1" above the water level, and slipping on a 90 elbow that is half submerged. This would let air out of the line easily and water pour into the sump. By turning the elbow various directions, you can direct the flow of bubbles in the best directiion to avoid their going right into the bubble trap.

Marc,

I'll try this suggestion tonight... but I believe this will only help to reduce the noise and may not help with the back pressure. Are you suggesting that once the salt water has been circulating for 2 weeks or so the fluid dynamics could change for the better (regarding back pressure)?

Quote:

Originally posted by REEFnR6
Doug- will you be able to do water changes with everything running (skimmer, pump, etc.)? You might want to try it while you are still ironing out the plumbing details.

REEFnR6,

I already tried this last night and it worked perfectly. With the system running I opened the drain ball valve and watched the water level drop in the center sump section. When the level gets down to 3 Gal I shut the drain ball valve and turn on the salt water pump (located in a container in the basment) and open the salt water faucet in the sump and refill back to the 14 gal mark. The only real issue here is that the 11 gallons I can change may not be a large enough percentage of the overall tank volume to be effective enough. I'll just have to see as time goes on.

melev · #**193** 01/05/2004, 11:02 AM

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

And your waterchange system will work really nicely if you do it once a week. I'm not a fan of water changes, but if I had it automated like yours, I wouldn't mind the 5 minutes to twist a couple of valves.

Snap-on · #**194** 01/05/2004, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

To elaborate for Marc (RC Sump Guru) here's a quote from Rich, "A commonly reported problem when first installing these standpipes is what I call a flushing effect. The water level in the chamber bounces up and down. This is different than the issue above where the water level stays too low. This issue typically is not caused by the size of the air-hole in the end cap. The flushing effect is almost always caused by back pressure in the drain line. Typically the back pressure is a result of the drain pipes in the sump being submerged below the water surface too far. Ideally you just want the drain pipes submerged about an inch or two. Just enough to reduce the splashing noise in the sump. The flushing effect works like this: Back pressure in the standpipe prevents air in the pipe from existing the drain line. Instead of exiting the drain line, the air bubbles try to rise in the pipe slowing the rate at which the pipes drain. The water level in the chamber then rises. The increase in the chamber water level adds pressure to help clear the air from the pipe. Once enough water pressure exists in the chamber to overcome the back pressure, the air is literally is "burped" out of the drain line which crates a sudden rush of water. This is a rapid drop of the water level in the overflow chamber. This cycle then repeats itself over and over." HTH, although it appears you must have read it prior. Good luck!

dmiannay · #**195** 01/05/2004, 11:49 AM

Marc,

Based on your comments I've decided to wait to do any drain plumbing mods till after we're a couple weeks into the cycle. Then, if back pressure is still a problem, temporary system shutdown will have negligible effect on the cycle.

Thanks for the tip on salt water properties!

71goalie · #**196** 01/05/2004, 11:50 AM

Doug,

About your HVAC register - I would probably recommend closing it off. The reason being, you are going to have a high humidity inside the stand. the register will "draw" warm, moist air into the duct and it may be a perfect breeding ground for mold inside the wall/ductwork. May want to think about it. Could you enclose the back of the stand to create a separation it from the wall??

dmiannay · #**197** 01/05/2004, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snap-on
... HTH, although it appears you must have read it prior. Good luck!

Snap-on,

Yes, I've spent a bit of time on Richard's site and that's what led me to finally conclude that I can't get enough flow through the combined drain lines where they meet at the left end of the stand (under the LH overflow). If the improved water dynamics from salt water (after about two weeks - according to Marc) don't solve the problem I'll have to increase the drain line diameter from the LH overflow.

Snap-on · #**198** 01/05/2004, 12:13 PM

Before increasing the drain line diameter, which imo will solve your problem with much extra effort, I would try Marc's idea below. I think his suggestion will work for you. Good luck.

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Before you go to that much trouble, you can try shortening the pipe to 1" above the water level, and slipping on a 90 elbow that is half submerged. This would let air out of the line easily and water pour into the sump. By turning the elbow various directions, you can direct the flow of bubbles in the best directiion to avoid their going right into the bubble trap.

dmiannay · #**199** 01/05/2004, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Snap-on
Before increasing the drain line diameter, which imo will solve your problem with much extra effort, I would try Marc's idea below. I think his suggestion will work for you. Good luck.

I'll post the results later this evening

spanker · #**200** 01/05/2004, 04:36 PM

My only thought with the register is that you're blowing hot air on your sump in the winter, and cold air on it in the summer in an uncontrolled manner (I.E. the air is regulated for your temp, not the tanks) and that it may play havoc with the temp of the tank. Not sure if it's a big deal or not. Perhaps some people who have their sumps sitting in front of a register can chime in and lend some experience.