Lighting: VHO or MH

[timmcq]

I'm in the process of planning a complete tank upgrade. I made many mistakes - thanks to local LFS - the first time - 36 gallon tank, canister filter, etc, etc, - anyone need a 36 gallon quarantine tank? . . . anyway . . .

I'm looking at Oceanic's 120 RR tank. Dimensions are 48x24x24. The cap (hood) only allows about 4". If I remove the 2 support braces, it buys me another 1 3/4 " for lighting, still not quite 6". This is enough for a series of VHO fixtures - maybe 6 with the 24" depth. I could go 4x10,000 plus 2 actinics. Enough?

Today, I have all soft corals, but don't want to limit myself in the future from clams and SPS.

Is there any MH setup that would fit in that height restriction? I also don't want to have so much light that I can't keep soft corals.

Any suggestions?

Tim


PS. While we're at it, any suggestions on sump size? Model? Skimmer for that size tank? To fuge or not to fuge?

. . . and anything else a rookie like me may not be considering???

THANKS!

[drock59]

first get a different hood so you can fit the MH. they look great. I would recommend MH with VHO supplementation.

also, i would definately go with a fuge.

[Imaexpat2]

Recommend another hood. You can get by even with many of the Acro's using VHO. MH is the apex of lighting to be sure.

Check out Champion Lights website. You will see a number of tanks in their gallery using VHO and MH/VHO set ups. It makes for some good comparisons.

Personally, I am using straight VHO in my 55 and my 50 gallon tanks. Both tanks are used for growing out various SPS frags. I have a couple of Maxima clams in one of them. The clams is really kinda pushing the envelope though. The Maxima and the Corcea's are pretty demandng on lighting needs. They (Maximas)are healthy and they are growing so it can be done. Acro's are not beyond VHO capabilities. Some wont color up quiet as nice as they do in my 135 with VHO/MH lights. The 135 uses 3 x 250 watt MH with 6500k bulbs ( a lot of people dont like the 6500k bulbs) with 4 x 160 VHO actinic blue and the growth is a bit faster and the colors are a bit more striking. What else is almost as striking was the cost for these lights and the electricity they use not to mention the increadible amount of heat generated. I have thus far avoided having to get a chiller unit. Check out the prices on a chiller before you buy lights...it will make you do some soul searching before buying MH's.

If your on a budget or dont want to have the added risk of needing a chiller unit, go with VHO. They work just fine, can give a nice look to the tank with the correct combination of bulbs, and all but the most demanding livestock will thrive.

If the sky is the limit, money no object, want the best money can buy, then MH/VHO combo is top shelf!

Just my experiences with both...and opinion.

[timmcq]

Imaexpat2

Thanks for the lengthy response. For purposes of looks, I'd prefer VHO - so that I can use matching cap. But I made many mistakes the first time, so don't want to buy VHOs and then upgrade to MH in a few months (AGAIN!!!).

If you had a 48x24 hood, how would you configure the VHOs?

Tim

[timmcq]

DROCK59,

A few questions:

What's the difference between a reef and a semi-reef? (and trust me that's a newbie question, not a sarcastic one!)

Second, (and now you'll see I'm a newbie) will the fuge and sump fit in a 48x24 stand. Are fuges custom or pre-made? With a 120 g tank, what size sump and fuge would you recommend?

Tim

[dragon_slayer]

clams and sps can be kept in your tank with only VHO if that is the lighting of your choice, which it seams to be. be it that way, i'd recommend you go with the 46.5" bulbs and add from 6-10 as needed.

there is no such thing as "semi-reef" thats like your wife being a little bit pregnant, it either is or is not.

as for the sump/fuge they can be bought or custom built to suite your needs/stand bigger is always better if you have the room.

for your pumps, this is a very $$$ choice but trust me you will not be kicking yourself later. get the Tunze Turbelle Stream 6100's, two of them controled by the 7094. they will provide all the circulation in the tank you'll ever need with no dead spots and no jet streams of water flow like standerd power heads.


for your return pump just get something around a Mag 9.5 for direct flow back to the tank. you won't need a SCWD with the Tunze's just enough flow to keep the sump/fuge supplied with a good circulation of tank water (mostly for the skimmers sake)

and FWIW you can never have to much light to keep softies, it just takes a long time to get them acclimated to the lighting. i have several toadstools inches under 400w MH bulbs.

hth
kc

[timmcq]

kc,

hth?

Thanks for the input.

...anyways, just saw the guys from Fort Payne on their Fairwell Tour - Awesome!

[dragon_slayer]

hth=hope this helps.

check this link out as well.
http://reefcentral.com/modules.php?s...&eid=2&ltr=all

kc

[Imaexpat2]

The 6 plus bulbs dragon_slayer recommended would be dead on in my opinion. I would suggest 6 as a minimum. 8 would probably be optimum. With a 48 x 24 canopy you will have plenty of room to mount a retrofit into it. ALL of my lights are retrofit kits that were easy to install in just minutes with a screw driver. Champion Lights or Hello Lights would be a good place to get your lights at.

Yeah that reef thing is kinda black and white...you got one or you dont. The only difference I see is you got a choice of Softies or SPS/LPS types or a combination of the two. I got about 30 SPS and just a few Softies.

You can get custom sumps made or you can get pre-made, choice is yours. They can get pretty pricey real quick. Pre-made ones will usually carry a recommended max tank size on them. If your a handy-man kinda guy, then you can usually make one cheaper than you can buy it. I would recommend the largest that you can fit or at least go one size bigger than recommended. You wont get "penalized" for over filtering your system. Mine is actually 5 gallons bigger than my 135 gallon display tank! Yeah Thats a bit over kill I will admit. Its DIY job using a 140 gallon plastic horse trough courtesy of the local feed supply store, for a whopping 69.00! A few more minor Sat. afternoon mods and I was set! For a pump I am using a Mag Drive. I am sure there are better but it seems to be working out rather nicely.

Hope that helps a little bit.

For some ideas check the 'net for Scott Morrels 120 gallon reef with VHO's. If you dont come up with anything then go to www.garf.org as I believe they may have pics of his tank and other info. I think thats where I found it at anyways.

[willra]

If you go VHO in your current hood, you could get 2 4-bulb 46.5'' retrofits from hellolights. Each retrofit has one ballast, so with two setups you could do a dusk/dawn effect. That would be a killer 880 watts vho setup with 8 bulbs. I like the combo of 2 superactinic URI's and 2 actinic white URI's. Great color, bright white with a touch of blue. I think you would be able to keep pretty much anything you want, with some limitation of high light clams at the bottom. Many have kept very successful hard coral tanks with VHO.
Whole lighting setup would be $492 + shipping, pretty sweet if you ask me. The $46.5 inch would fit well in your canopy and 2 10'' setups would also fit well with width.
I'm talking about 2 of these:
http://store.yahoo.com/lamps-now/4654lamvhore.html

Good luck, with whatever you decide. -Will

[timmcq]

Will,

Thanks! I do like the idea of using the matching hood and MH won't allow that. I like your suggestions, but 2 questions:

1. With 880 watts do you think I will need a chiller?

2. Please explain the "dusk/dawn effect."

Thanks!

Tim

[timmcq]

Will,

You are suggesting 2 "URI Super Actinic VHO" and 2 "URI Actinic White 50/50 VHO" in each? None of the "URI Aquasun 10,000K VHO"?

Correct?

[timmcq]

Will,

You estimated "Whole lighting setup would be $492 + shipping."
That would be without the ballast upgrade. This would add an additional $270. In your opinion, is it worth it? ...and can the ballast upgrade be added later?

Tim

[dragon_slayer]

the ballast can be added later but if you get two of the setups you do not need the additional ballast to get the dusk/dawn lighting.

dusk/dawn is where you have your actinic only lighting come on 1 hr before your daylight and go off 1 hr after the daylight.

with just the two kits without the ballast upgrade you can do this still by using one ballast to light the 4 actinics and the other for the daylights (which i'd go with 10KK's not 50/50's myself but thats personal taste).

you most likely wont need a chiller but you will need a fan or two in the canopy.

hth
kc

[Habib]

Tim,

For what it’s worth and speaking from experience, if you limit yourself on the low profile hood, you may regret it in the long run. We resisted Metal Halides for years. We tried PC, PC/VHO, VHO, T5, T5/VHO, VHO, and recently switched to VHO/MH. The change has been dramatic in our tank. Our clams are indicating significant changes since moving from 770W of VHO over a 75RR to the new system.

Can you order a tall hood to match your stand? I would think Oceanic has the capability. You can always put the VHO in there and never use the extra space, but ultimately when you decided you want more light, VHO and T5 probably won’t get you there.

As for a chiller, a lot of it depends on your setup. (i.e. How many power heads, submersible pumps, etc.) I can tell you that we had a relatively open hood and with 770W of VHO, we had heat build up in the summer. We finally got tired of floating ice and put in a chiller. Great investment…

As for cost, let’s check the math;

8-VHO Cost = $611.80
4-Bulb IceCap VHO Retro from Champion Lighting (2 @ $305.90)
Yearly Bulb Cost (4-Actinic @ $21, 4-Sun or 50/50 @ $24) = $180

4-VHO / 2-250W MH Cost = $663.90
4-Bulb IceCap VHO Retro from Champion Lighting = $305.90
CoralVue 250W MH Kit (2 @ $179) = $358
Yearly Bulb Cost (4-Actinic @ $21, 2-10,000K CoralVue Bulbs @ $52) = $188

You can go cheaper with ARO VHO ballasts or the URI (made by IceCap). Personally, we love the IceCap (or the new URI) for a number of reasons. Check on the taller hood. You could be happier in the long run.

Doug

[willra]

Sorry I didn't respond quickly. I think it is a good deal that would work well, and dragon explained the dusk dawn effect. URI Aquasun is advertised as 10,000k, but most people who get them say it is kinda pink. I just got VHOs w/ 2 Actinic Whites (50/50), and 2 super actinics, I really like the color. The 50/50s are 12k I think, they look crisp white to me. You can experiment with combinations of superactinic, actinic white, and aquasun.

I don't think you would need a chiller if you install a couple of fans in the canopy. Even with 880 watts, VHOs run cool compared to mh's. Thats why the low canopy is ok. The ballast upgrade really isn't needed if you have 2 setups b/c you will have 2 ballasts total. Here is an idea for bulbs:

First setup (on an hour before and after second setup):

- 3 superactinics,
- 1 50/50

Second Setup:

- 1 superactinic
- 2 50/50s
- 1 aquasun

I think this way the actinic color will be spread through the depth of the tank during the day more. You can go with more aquasuns if you want, it is personal taste. I'd say most people prefer at least some of the 50/50s for daylights if not all of them. Hope this helps.

Will

[dragon_slayer]

VHOs run cool compared to mh's.

VHO's have the heat spread out over the length of the bulb which is much longer then a MH, they produce the same heat watt/watt.

kc

[timmcq]

Will, KC, and Imaexpat2,

Thanks! You've given me much to think about and to experiment with!


Habib and Drock59,

Someday, I'll probably say "you told me so," but I'm upgrading from Compact Fl. so an 880 watt VHO setup seems great. Also, I really want to try to stay within the standard hood cap.

Also, in my research, I find sites like this:

http://www.championlighting.com/e/en...vishoward.html

Anyway . . .

Thanks!

[Imaexpat2]

You just might end up saying "you told me so", as it seems like eventually all reefers end up with metal halides in the end, at least on one of there tanks.

But I have been pretty happy with VHO's and I could have gotten buy just fine without the halides I do have on one of my tanks. As you can see from the tank in Champions Gallery, SPS's are very do-able, and can look very comparable to a halide lit tank.

JMHO....

[DJPB]

Before I had MH I loved VHO's. Now that I have 2 250watt 10k MH and 440watt actinic VHO I realize how much a difference MH makes. The polyp extension for one is more pronounced under MH & VHO. Also the shimmer of MH is incredible. VHO only tanks will never have that kind of appearance. Just my .02

[willra]

timmcq - Do you notice the color of the lighting in that link? That just gives you an idea of the color of 50% actinic, 50% actinic white.

[timmcq]

Prior to purchasing VHOs, should I be considering T5s. I know nothing about them, but some threads here imply they are replacing VHOs.

???

[Imaexpat2]

Havent had any experience with T-5's. I understand they are supose to be more efficient than VHO. They are very small diameter tubes, but they are still kinda pricey bulb wise. The biggest diameter that I can see at them moment is that becuase of their small diameter you can cram a lot of bulbs under a small space. Prehaps someone here has used them and have first hand experience.

[pete_ra]

i can put my hand on my vhos in the middle of the day and they dont burn me at all(not even close), just a little warm, these are URIs. I do have fans running on them though.

[willra]

If you decide to go T5, reefgeek.com is a site I have heard some good things about, and they have some pretty nice retrofits. This setup is a bit pricey at $649, but you might want to consider it. 4 ballasts, individual reflectors, etc. Its only half the wattage, but I have heard that T5s run much brighter because of reflector efficiency. It tells a little bit about them below the specs. In general, I think many reefers agree that VHOs have the best color of all the flouresents, and I have heard of some who are somewhat disapointed with the color of their T5s (but happy with the brightness). I wouldn't say they are replacing VHO's, but are getting quite popular considering they are pretty new.

http://reefgeek.com/products/categor...ng/104070.html

Will