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  #101  
Old 10/07/2006, 12:24 PM
DrBegalke DrBegalke is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ChinChek787
Phosphate will bind to the sand, eventually the sand will no longer be able to bind phosphate and it will begin to build up. I would think that simply removing the top half would be adequate as it would leave a good protion of the denitrifying bacteria in tack while providing fresh substrate for nitrifying bacteria on more phosphate binding. A phosphate reactor would help prolong the usefulness of the sand.
Probably a good idea since the aragonite can release the phosphate fairly easily:

http://www.rsmas.miami.edu/groups/jmc/fla-bay/fbay.html
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2002/chem.htm
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  #102  
Old 10/08/2006, 02:16 AM
Reef NuTTZ Reef NuTTZ is offline
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Hi All,

I was reading all the post regarding this RDSB and from all the info that I gathered, I finally decided to go and make one. Sadly the first night I had it hooked up, It went really bad. My RDSB over flowed and flooded my living room. Luckily I didn't get electrocuted lol. Well I got the problem fixed and here are some pictures of it.

I found this Tough Lid container at HD. Detentions are, Hx12"/Wx17"/xL27". Inlet = 3/4, Outlet = 1"





  #103  
Old 10/08/2006, 05:41 AM
LRS078 LRS078 is offline
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Reefnutt, small tip, put a spraybar modification the width of the rubbermaid and it will not stir sand and will be easier to keep even flow over the sand (ie no craters/deadspots/etc). Otherwise looks like a nice setup.
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  #104  
Old 10/08/2006, 06:32 AM
DgenR8 DgenR8 is offline
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I'd add a couple 'o hose clamps right here.
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I'm pretty sure it's Mike's fault.....
  #105  
Old 10/08/2006, 07:02 AM
Reef NuTTZ Reef NuTTZ is offline
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Spray bar and Hose clams

Thanks for the advice guys, will be heading back to HD tomorrow for more parts

Huy
  #106  
Old 10/08/2006, 03:48 PM
pjf pjf is offline
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Question Garbage In, Garbage Out

I have read the posts that praise the RDSB's ability to remove nitrogen and phosphate from the water column. I have also read the posts that urge an adequate flow of water above the RDSB to prevent it from accumulating detritus and becoming a nutrient sink.

Here's the question that continues to trouble me:

If RDSB's can import nitrogen and phosphate from the water column, how is the same nitrogen and phosphate exported from the RDSB?

With macro algae filters, the anwer is easy: you simply trim the algae to export the nitrogen and phosphate from the aquarium system. What is the equivalent export action with respect to RDSB's?

Are we to assume that garbage just keeps going in with nothing ever coming out?
  #107  
Old 10/08/2006, 03:57 PM
TekCat TekCat is offline
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not sure about phosphates, but nitrates will be digested by bacteria and released nitrogen as gas. venting it to atmosphere.
  #108  
Old 10/09/2006, 12:31 PM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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I got mine set up on Saturday I'll post pictures later. I have never had a nitrate level below 10. I did not expect any change when I tested on Sunday. . . But the level had dropped to below 5. I used 60 lbs of Live aragonite sand. I'll let you all know next week if the level keeps dropping or whatever. The water feeding the RDSB is comming out of my UV does anydody have any comments? Is there any reason I should change the water source?

Alan
  #109  
Old 10/11/2006, 10:15 PM
murraycamp murraycamp is offline
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To all the RDSB masters here, I have a quick question regarding plumbing a RDSB. I have no sump, just a Remora Pro skimmer on a 30 gal. cube.

I am thinking of just running the drain hose from a HOT overflow box down to a 5 gal bucket w/ about 12-14" of sand, putting a sponge on the end of the drain hose for diffusion and then attach it to the rim of the bucket. For the return, I am thinking of just placing a Mag 1.9 on a 4 x 4" piece of eggcrate on the other side of the bucket with a return hose to the tank. I think that would give me about 150 gph over the sand bed. My purposes in planning it this way are to; (1) increase evaporative cooling (hence, no lid on the bucket), (2) avoid having to install bulkheads or mess with traditional plumbing, and (3) limit flooding risk with a siphon overflow. Does anyone see any problems doing it this way?

Thanks in advance.
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  #110  
Old 10/12/2006, 08:07 AM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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RDSB

Murray

What other filtration do you have? The water going to the DSB should be free from any detritus so it does not become a nutrient sink. From what I've read it should not be in a lit area so it does not grow any algae. what you propose would work great as a refugium, you could actually light it, grow algae include a miricle mud or dsb. etc.

The idea of a RDSB is all that is in the sand is bacteria to consume nitrate Vs the Refugium has plants and critters that fish in the display would eat if they were there. Both should reduce nitrate

Good luck which ever way you decide, you could even do both

Alan
  #111  
Old 10/12/2006, 08:35 AM
murraycamp murraycamp is offline
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further RDSB confusion

Okay - not to beat a dead seahorse, but I'm also very confused.

I have read and re-read multiple threads on this issue and I thought a standard 5 gallon bucket would suffice. I just measured my 5 gallon bucket and it's 14" tall, so I am looking at a 10-12" bed, which is apparently on the "low end" for potential NNR per Mr. Calfo. Also, I thought certain research established that anoxic denitrification starts to occur at about 6" of depth (maybe even less) in oolitic beds. Hence my confusion.

Also, I have seen opinions that dsb denitrification is largely dependant on surface area, and concurrent threads indicating that a 10 x 12" bed is insufficient for substantial NNR. A 10 x 12" surface area is not too far off from (and actually exceeds) the surface area of a standard 5 gal. bucket (120 sq. in. v. 113 sq. in.). So, if a 5 gal. bucket's 14" is on the low end of potential NNR, and the surface area is actually less than that of an insufficient sump dsb that measures 10 x 12", why would a 5 gal. bucket be sufficient?

I am also confused on the argonite buffering issue. The main threads seem to indicate it will have some buffering capacity, but I have also seen opinions that for argonite to have any buffering effect one's ph would have to be so low that your reef would likely be dead.

Any clarifications would be greatly appreciated.
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"Border relations between Canada and Mexico have never been better." - George W. Bush, Sep. 24, 2001.
  #112  
Old 10/12/2006, 09:52 AM
BeanAnimal BeanAnimal is offline
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murray I will attempt to answer a few of these questions.

1) The DSB in question is not lighted, so therefore it is a bit different than one you would find in a display tank. I would bet that the anoxic layer is somewhat shallower than in a display tank where the bed is lighted and churned by the livestock.

2) Surface area certainly is helpful. However in this case the entire surface area will be usefull (not covered by rock and corals). Again this is a bit different than the DSB in a sump... but I do understand the question and don't have a better answer.

3) Partially correct for the aragonite to disolve your PH would have to be low enough to kill everything in the tank... OR WOULD IT? Down in the deeper layers of the bed, the PH can be substantially lower. This is where the disolution takes place. As the disolved aragonite and water from deep in the bed make their way to the surface they mix with the main mass of tank water..... so yes you do get your buffering

Hope that gets you started.

Bean
  #113  
Old 10/12/2006, 01:24 PM
onehundred20 onehundred20 is offline
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Dont have time to read the whole thread, im wondering if I use my refugium that only houses my cheato and a rock for this same method, will it work correctly? Its a faily large fuge on my 55 gallon sump. Wouldnt this be the same concept except not in a bucket and a little bit of light for the cheato.

Also I have about 35lbs of aragonite from when i went barebottom would this work well if i was it good and use it for the sand.

The display is 120 gallons.

here is a pic of the fuge on the right...

  #114  
Old 10/12/2006, 01:41 PM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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RDSB

120

my understanding by reading the whole thread is that You could benifit by adding the dsb in the refugium, but it is diferent than the concept discussed in this thread. In the fuge plant material utiizes organic matter in the water and you remove it by harvesting every once in a while. In the DSB bacteria consumes nitrate and blows it off as air. To do this it has to be in the dark and relitively free of detritus, maybe Bean will let us know if I'm on the right track. I have built one & have it working, but my knowledge is based mostley on what I have learned here.

Alan
  #115  
Old 10/12/2006, 02:48 PM
kraze3 kraze3 is offline
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Is it worth it to have a 5gal bucket for a RDSB on a 75 gal tank or should it be a bigger container?
  #116  
Old 10/12/2006, 04:01 PM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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kraze3
Originally posted by Anthony Calfo
no worries... theres a mention of DSB buckets in threads on RC here (this forum too I think) as well as in my coral prop book.

But it is as literal as it sounds: having your DSB in a large bucket or garbage can rather than in a display. It can stay unlit and needs little or no servicing. Just a stream of water flowing atop it. The vessel is to be filled nearly to the top with only a few inches of water running above it. A five gallon bucket will hold about 60lbs of oolitic sand and service perhaps a 90-120 gallon aquarium (larger tanks with lighter bioloads too). Big displays often use a non-toxic plastic garbage can (or food barrel) with more sand of course.
I retreived this form a very early post in the begining of this thread. I copied it so I would not have to worry about mis-stating it. But from this it sounds like it would work for you, obviously like anything else bigger is better. I am using a 5 gal tank for my 90gal

Alan
  #117  
Old 10/12/2006, 04:55 PM
onehundred20 onehundred20 is offline
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ok, what about using my old aragonite would that work or should i opt for new southdown sand or something
  #118  
Old 10/12/2006, 05:13 PM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by onehundred20
ok, what about using my old aragonite would that work or should i opt for new southdown sand or something
It should work fine, is it stiil live? that would be better.

Alan
  #119  
Old 10/12/2006, 05:36 PM
erc111 erc111 is offline
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I put a 5 gal rdsb with 60 lbs HD white playsand on my overstocked 120 about 3 months ago..

I have 24 fish, 10 sps, 5 lps, lots of zoas and 'shrooms and a large gorg.
I also overfeed.

I have a 25g sump full of LR and a 10g refugium with chaeto.

My nitrates were below 10 before the rdsb and are now unreadable on a salifert test kit.

The sps are growing noticeably

Worked for me
Your mileage may vary.
  #120  
Old 10/13/2006, 04:59 AM
nautilus808 nautilus808 is offline
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Check out my RDSB!





It is a nalgene carboy. Very strong and slightly opaque. www.fishersci.com sells them and the small bulkheads as well.
  #121  
Old 10/13/2006, 08:57 AM
George Grogan George Grogan is offline
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I have earned my stripes; read the whole thread! I will definetely be putting a RDSB into the loop in my new system. Hopefully, nitrates will never become an issue in the first place!

Thanks a million to all the dedicated posters, especially Anthony in the beginning, and many others who took the time to post ongoing results of their efforts!!
  #122  
Old 10/14/2006, 02:28 AM
Reef NuTTZ Reef NuTTZ is offline
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Hi all im back again to share my readings. Well 1 month before I added the RDSB my nitrates were 20+ so I decided to add "sugar" and it lowered my nitrates to 0. But after a week of not dosing sugar, It spiked back up to 15ppm or so. This is when I decided to make a RDSB and did a 20% water change after it was hooked up and running correctly.

7 days ago nitrate was at 15ppm
Today, almost undetectable.01ppm

So far so good
Quote:
Originally posted by larrydawg5
Thanks a million to all the dedicated posters, especially Anthony in the beginning, and many others who took the time to post ongoing results of their efforts!!
I 2nd that! Thanks guys

Huy
  #123  
Old 10/14/2006, 01:16 PM
Alan Strauss Alan Strauss is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alan Strauss
I got mine set up on Saturday I'll post pictures later. I have never had a nitrate level below 10. I did not expect any change when I tested on Sunday. . . But the level had dropped to below 5. I used 60 lbs of Live aragonite sand. I'll let you all know next week if the level keeps dropping or whatever. The water feeding the RDSB is comming out of my UV does anydody have any comments? Is there any reason I should change the water source?

Alan
Ok I guess, last week’s reading was a flook, today Nitrate level was back up to 10. You all have said the RDSB would kick in after a few weeks. I really didn't understand last week’s readings; I thought that maybe the bacteria in the live sand had done its thing with the nitrates.

Alan
  #124  
Old 10/14/2006, 01:44 PM
dannyfromholland dannyfromholland is offline
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What about phosfates? Would it be effective to mix up some rowaphos or other phosfate binding material to the sand? When dooing this the sand must be changed out more frequently I guess
  #125  
Old 10/14/2006, 02:28 PM
DgenR8 DgenR8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by dannyfromholland
What about phosfates? Would it be effective to mix up some rowaphos or other phosfate binding material to the sand? When dooing this the sand must be changed out more frequently I guess

Phosphate binders work much better if water is forced through them. I don't think there would be any benefit to adding them to a DSB.
Adding a Phosban reactor, or the like could very well help solve a phosphate problem, but that's a subject for another thread.
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"The significant problems we face cannot be solved

at the same level of thinking we were at when we

created them." Albert Einstein




I'm pretty sure it's Mike's fault.....
 

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