Reef Farm Business Plan - Page 4

prance1520 · #76 10/20/2006, 03:24 PM

Hey guys,

Not really into the aquaculture business, but I love tagging along and learning how behind the scenes works. I've basically stopped buying wild colonies for multiple reasons, so you guys are the future of my tank.

I'd like to hear more about the benefits of the greenhouse over, lets say, a metal shed/garage with an acrylic roof. I know it would be more expensive, but you could insulate it better than a greenhouse, using less to heat/cool it. You could also be a bit more confident with your security. Is there any other reason for not working with a structure like this? Is there some inherent ability of a GH that I'm over looking? Just picking your brains :P Thanks.

Matt

Philip Root · #77 10/20/2006, 05:07 PM

Acrylic will not with stand sun light. Cost of building a GH is much less than a building. I am not saying that you could not do it with a building, but I am going with the most for the littlest. I don't even have water pumps....

Whaledriver · #78 10/20/2006, 05:08 PM

One theory for a green house up north that has been bouncing around my head is a greenhouse that can be insulated at night or on cold days.
It would be a green house with one side facing South and a tall vertical wall on the North side. Using a simple garage door with heavy insulation you could roll the insulated door up the vertical north wall and down under the South facing glass roof. If you automated this and the lighting you could cut cost down considerably.
Again this is just an idea that I had but it should make coral farming up North competitive with the farms down South. If you add a ground sorce heat pump for heating and cooling you should be very efficient

raaden · #79 10/23/2006, 04:35 PM

prance,

The only real benefits of a GH over another building would be the cost (GH is much less expensive 5-7x) and greater light availability (although this is debatable because most have had to use shade cloth over the corals so the GH may actually be overkill). The bennies for a standard structure are greater insulation (lower heat/cool costs), higher security (becoming more important in my book), and structure integrity (storm proof). With all these things considered I am still going to go the greenhouse route. Acrylic, like stoney said is not going to work, but there are panels that you can get to cover a roof that will work. They are the same as you would use to cover a GH but in a panel form.

The northern greenhouse idea is really taking off in the last couple of years with organic vegetables gaining in popularity. There are a few operations that are looking into ways to better insulate GH's so that they can be used for medium scale operations up north. The latest of which is a soap bubble filled GH. It is quite interesting and is supposed to have rival R factors in comparison to standard insulated walls. There is no commercial product available but there are a few people who have documented their setups. I would be interested to see someone here try it, but I am not that guinea pig

They basically fill the space between the layers of poly with a soap bubble mixture in the cooler months and then drain it when it gets warm again. The light output, IIRC, was only about 30% down from standard so that could be a good idea

Whaledriver · #80 10/23/2006, 06:45 PM

Has anyone looked into hourly electrical billing and running the operation at night? In Illinois of peak electricity is as low as 3.5 cents per KW. For my basement operation I am going to look into it. Peak hours are 9-6 during the day. I could run 15 hour photo periods at the times I am home. My guess is that it would cut my tank lighting cost by 2/3.

I am worried about how this would effect my non aquarium electrical cost though

Qwiv · #81 10/23/2006, 07:27 PM

You need a special electrical meter to take advantage of the savings. With a regular meter, they have no idea what time you had the lights turned on.

WarDaddy · #82 10/23/2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raaden
prance,

The only real benefits of a GH over another building would be the cost (GH is much less expensive 5-7x) and greater light availability (although this is debatable because most have had to use shade cloth over the corals so the GH may actually be overkill). The bennies for a standard structure are greater insulation (lower heat/cool costs), higher security (becoming more important in my book), and structure integrity (storm proof). With all these things considered I am still going to go the greenhouse route. Acrylic, like stoney said is not going to work, but there are panels that you can get to cover a roof that will work. They are the same as you would use to cover a GH but in a panel form.

The northern greenhouse idea is really taking off in the last couple of years with organic vegetables gaining in popularity. There are a few operations that are looking into ways to better insulate GH's so that they can be used for medium scale operations up north. The latest of which is a soap bubble filled GH. It is quite interesting and is supposed to have rival R factors in comparison to standard insulated walls. There is no commercial product available but there are a few people who have documented their setups. I would be interested to see someone here try it, but I am not that guinea pig
They basically fill the space between the layers of poly with a soap bubble mixture in the cooler months and then drain it when it gets warm again. The light output, IIRC, was only about 30% down from standard so that could be a good idea

This brings me to an idea I have had bouncing around.

What if we did not build a green house, but an outbuilding, construction of your choice, corragated metal, wood, cement block, what ever, and then placed an angled roof on it to allof direct sunlight to the coral below most of the day. It may cost a few dollars more to construct, but it would weather better, hold a more steady tempature, and would be more economical to heat/cool.

The green house panel roof would still gain you the light benefit, but not at the loss of insulation on the walls. It is an interesting though, doubt it has merit, seeing a green house is so darn cheap.

Steven Pro · #83 10/24/2006, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WarDaddy
This brings me to an idea I have had bouncing around.

What if we did not build a green house, but an outbuilding, construction of your choice, corragated metal, wood, cement block, what ever, and then placed an angled roof on it to allof direct sunlight to the coral below most of the day. It may cost a few dollars more to construct, but it would weather better, hold a more steady tempature, and would be more economical to heat/cool.

The green house panel roof would still gain you the light benefit, but not at the loss of insulation on the walls. It is an interesting though, doubt it has merit, seeing a green house is so darn cheap.

Both Tropicorium and Dr. Mac's are built this way. It is a good idea to make some pilgrimages to these successful places before beginning construction. That way you can see what others have done, what works, and what might be improved upon. I was in Anthony Calfo's greenhouse more times than I could count. I have been out to Tropicorium numerous times. And, I have even visited Inland Aquatics a couple of times. I felt this was important research prior to starting my business plan.

smketyr · #84 10/24/2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steven Pro
Both Tropicorium and Dr. Mac's are built this way. It is a good idea to make some pilgrimages to these successful places before beginning construction. That way you can see what others have done, what works, and what might be improved upon. I was in Anthony Calfo's greenhouse more times than I could count. I have been out to Tropicorium numerous times. And, I have even visited Inland Aquatics a couple of times. I felt this was important research prior to starting my business plan.

Very good advice. This is what I am doing at the moment. I have been looking into winter orchid growers, as well. They are using polycarbonate roof panels on the south facing of a slanted isulated steel building. The one owner told me that the cost of the building was comparable to a GH.

toddlaco · #85 10/26/2006, 10:41 AM

I am interested in the outbuilding idea as well. I live in North Central Texas and when I moved here in July it was 100 degrees +. Quite a few days were in excess of 110 degrees.

I am in the very, very early stages of researching a possible coral farming business. From the small amount of research I have conducted so far and an owner of an orchid greenhouse in the area, it doesn't look like a greenhouse would be feasible with our high summer temps.

Is there anyone that has run a greenhouse in these conditions that could offer some advice or a good source for researching this?
Philip, I see you are in Birmingham, Al. Do you experience these conditions there? If so, how do you deal with the high temps in the summer, and do you have much humidity to deal with?

raaden · #86 10/27/2006, 07:55 AM

Some thoughts I had on the outbuilding idea. if you are looking at ops in severe climates then an outbuilding style would be a must have. With only the top and about 40% of the south facing side of the building covered in poly panel you will still get about 70% of the light that a standard tunnel greenhouse will get (there is a book on GH's that is called the Green Book i believe that describes sun penetration). then the rest of it can be built with extra insulation and you should be able to alleviate most of the heating/cooling issues. I considered something like this when I was discussing some ideas with redox and hamburglar, but decided that where I live the cost/benefit was not enough. I can however see how in northern or deep southern locations this would be well worth the extra building costs. In order to make it worth it though you would have to have some heavy insulation.

Another thing I have been researching is the solar power idea. Jake Levi seemed very set on the idea so I figured I should do some serious research and see what I could come up with. Well what I found once again was pretty encouraging. Costs should be coming down within the next 18 months and there are some serious incentives in both tax(federal and state), and elecrtical credits. Enough so that I think I will need to consider this when I plan my expansion. The DSIRE website give a pretty good list of the tax incentives that are available for both consumers and businesses who are looking to utilize solar power. The basic idea is that in NC you can get pretty close to .70 on the dollar in tax credits spread out over 5 years for businesses who implement solar power arrays. This in addition to the idea of free power and potential electric credits (not taxable) makes it hard to not want to try to make solar power work. The rub is that you have to put the money in upfront, and currently costs are pretty substantial. What I have read says that within 18 months the costs will come down by about 1/3 and efficiency will increase by about 10%. I also think that if gas prices climb again that the credits will also go up within the next 18 mos. If my expansion plans work out then this would be an ideal situation.

RedSonja · #87 10/27/2006, 08:47 AM

Raaden,

I've thought about the solar panels as well, but haven't done any research on it as yet (still buried in number crunching and market analysis for business plan, so fun!

) One thing the resident engineer brought up was the short lifespan of the panels. Again this is not researched or up to date but he thinks the panels would have to be replaced soon after or maybe even a bit before they paid for themselves, which would make the financiable feasibility rather questionable. Anyone who's more up to date on their research know what the lifespan is compared to the breakeven point on solar panels?

Thanks

-Sonja

WarDaddy · #88 10/29/2006, 08:58 PM

raaden,
I am working on a busniess plan myself. I am trying to see if I can get this off the ground, but market numbers are hard to find. Where did you do you market research?

laverda · #89 10/29/2006, 09:08 PM

I have done some research on solar and they are supposed to last longer then that but they are still very expensive. If you are in an area with light constant winds the wind turbines are much less expensive. You can generate 1000 KWH per month with a 12 MPH wind for less then 6000.00 initial cost. In So CA you could never get permits for them it the residential areas.

WarDaddy · #90 10/29/2006, 09:20 PM

I am going to run for office... A chicken in every pot and a trubine on every roof!

Philip Root · #91 10/29/2006, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toddlaco
I am interested in the outbuilding idea as well. I live in North Central Texas and when I moved here in July it was 100 degrees +. Quite a few days were in excess of 110 degrees.

I am in the very, very early stages of researching a possible coral farming business. From the small amount of research I have conducted so far and an owner of an orchid greenhouse in the area, it doesn't look like a greenhouse would be feasible with our high summer temps.

Is there anyone that has run a greenhouse in these conditions that could offer some advice or a good source for researching this?
Philip, I see you are in Birmingham, Al. Do you experience these conditions there? If so, how do you deal with the high temps in the summer, and do you have much humidity to deal with?

I think alot will depend on the equipment, and design. I do think it can be done, and done better ( less cost) than in the north. I have learned lots of thing about greenhouse, and alot about nature. 40foot x50foot sade cloth $100.00, Propane for one night 50.00

From day one I have never had temps over 80 in the water. No chillers, 110 at the peek in the greenhouse. Hummidy 80%.

But I don't use any water pumps.

Philip

raaden · #92 10/30/2006, 07:56 AM

Wardaddy, as far as research goes I probably spent about 4 months inside the main branch of my library. I spent so much time there the info ladies started putting me on their schedule.

My library had a lot of really good info and I found so much more online. The first thing I would say is to read atleast 3 books writing business plans cover to cover. Try to pick ones that don't have flashy or bright covers. This will save you more time then you know. Then once you understand what you are looking for make a list of questions and things you want to cover in your BP, then just start reading everything you can get your hands on.

As far as sources go subscribe to every fish and small pet trade journal you can find (these will give you size and value number for the market). I can send you my list if you want. Then go to NOAA and spend about a week looking through everything they have on Coral Reefs (this will give you info on locations and base info damage to natural reefs). The EPA has some really good links on studies that are being done on both natural and artificial reefs and some info on the farms they are doing in Hawaii, and Indonesia. Get Anthony's book on coral propatation. Get all the other books on corals, especially the ones that don't have alot of pictures. And don't forget just put keywords from your questions into google, msn, yahoo, altavista and any others you know. They will give different results, and just follow links as deep as you can go.

Then once you find an answer to your question list, put half an X beside the question. Then find another answer to the same question (trust me there will be atleast three different answers to each question). When you get the second answer fill out the X. If you have the interest find a third answer, and then take all three and figure out the truth that lies in the middle it is probably not any one answer but a combination of all of them. Also don't be afraid to let one question lead to another. Your BP should grow organically. As you learn more you realize there is still more to learn. Eventually your interest should steer you into exactly what you want to do.

RedSonja · #93 10/30/2006, 08:24 AM

Excellent advice raaden. I'd like to add my tiny bit of wisdom to it, to say you can learn a lot about starting and running a small business, as well as writing business plans and all that entails, from your local community college. I've practically lived at the local Small Business Center the past two months, with "REAL Entrepreneurship" classes one night a week and 3-hour seminars every Tuesday. I've learned lots of information on everything from writing your business plan to get a loan, to internet marketing, to business networking techniques. For an investment of less than $200 (all deductible) I've made contacts with marketers, accountants, banks, etc., as well as learned all they could cram into a few hours of talking. I'd recommend checking out the Continuing Education dept of local colleges/universities, they can be a great resource for general business knowledge if not for specific coral-farming knowledge.

-Sonja

jake levi · #94 10/31/2006, 06:00 AM

I agree strongly with Stephen: GO and look at Tropicorium and Dr Macs before you spend a penny on a bldg. It will be money saved that you spend for the trip.

Solar panels are coming down in price and longer lived now and its going to get better. Its worth looking at. Shop around.

laverda · #95 10/31/2006, 01:25 PM

WarDaddy: What kind of business are you thinking of in SO CA?

WarDaddy · #96 10/31/2006, 01:52 PM

looking at the Anemone breeding :-) I have 2 very different RBTA's that I am working from.

I am starting here in CA, but I trying sell my house and move to Atlanta.

here in CA I am just getting proof of concept work done. Getting all my techniques dialed in, brood stock up, etc.

I hope I can sell my house by spring, once in GA, I will apply what I learn in the next few months.

Here in CA it will be all in the garage. Should be interesting.

How is your setup coming?

Whaledriver · #97 10/31/2006, 05:09 PM

Have you chosen any business software yet?
I was wondering if there was a simple enterprise software that you liked? Quicken or Peachtree?
Some of these suites will work with UPS or fedx and you can do anything from the order, payment through cost and profit analysis.
I think if you can set up and prototype your business you should have a good handle of the time and cost of the "white collar" side of the business. We tend to over think the "blue collar" growing and setup of the equipment since it is more fun but I would think the success of an endeavor is split evenly between the two sides

WarDaddy · #98 10/31/2006, 05:39 PM

I am ordering Quickbooks Pro.

That will allow me to have decent data as tis ball starts rolling.

I am EARLY in the process of the business, but I want the financial software set up now, so that EVERY expense is recorded as I go forward.

One of the issues I struggle with, is how do I account for my power consumption? My "farm" is in the garage, and run off my home's power. I want an accurate tally of the amount of power I use for the business, so I can expense it properly.

Steven Pro · #99 10/31/2006, 05:44 PM

I use Quickbooks for my current aquarium maintenance business and will be using it for the greenhouse operation as well. I like it. Very easy to use. Nice record keeping features. And, it can generate just about any kind of report you would want.

laverda · #**100** 10/31/2006, 10:37 PM

Quicken is the easisest to use and sutiable for most single users. Quickbooks is a litter harder, but more of a true accounting program and can handle more users and reporting. Both are easier the Peachtree was when I tried it. The real trick what ever you use, is setting it up properly. Someone with acounting experiance or your tax advisor can be very helpful there.