Reef-Farm operations

[crazzy]

FYI Referencing the above regarding CITES. The following is a direct quote from "SPC Aquaculture Portal" for Fiji and the South Pacific.

"While scleractinian corals are CITES listed and require permits etc., aquacultured corals qualify as 'captive bred' and are exempting from CITES regulations, but only if they are certified as grown from second generation cultured stock. "
Some things, as always, may not be black and white. Jus thought you might check it out if it is at all relevant! Congratulations on your progress

[crazzy]

Attached is a picture of a type of forkliftable Tank I was referring to. Easy to cut, drill add piping, valves etc al in the budget range you are looking for. Your time is more valuable doing the nyriad of other things you need to do rather than building a tank exchanging four quarters for a Dollar. again all the Best.

[BallaBooyeaH]

Raaden,

Quick question which I am assuming you may know or other in this thread may.

I want to map in the USA who is doing aquaculture and where in the USA they are based?
What type of faciliuty they have and what type of turnover? I.e. I know that Dick Perrin is not in a PT but a building of some type with a certain roof.

This is for 2 reasons. Firstly to ensure me that my lag and latitude will work here in ireland for required sunlight.
Also to guage the output of stock comming for aquaculture facilities.

Thanks and WOW you are getting this thing moving fast.

[Whaledriver]

Have you looked into making your vats/tanks out of glass?
Calfo found a source for cheap glass and made tanks out of them for his greenhouse. See if there is a glass factory in the area that might have cheap glass.

[raaden]

Sorry so long since updates, I have been so busy I haven't even had time to get any pics.

Where I am quickly is:
*The fans are in and working on the thermostat
*the evap cooler has been started and will be done this week
*Got some more gravel to clean up the edges of the outside so it will look a bit nicer
*Built 3 of the 4 vats (8'x6'x27") out of lumber and OSB.
*Have two of them in the GH and waiting to put the epoxy liner in
*Making way on the electrical, and have power in the GH as well as a few temporary boxes for equipment, and a few lights mounted

I will run through the rest in the next post

P.s. redox,
I wish I could remember that framers number so I could give him a piece of my mind, a few of the shutters don't completely close... just kidding it is not your fault at all. I decided to wrap the plastic around the opening to better seal the ends and the thickness of the plastic is causing the bottom lip of the shutters to rub. Pretty easy fix just haven't gotten to it yet.

[raaden]

thanx everyone for all of the suggestions. They were all pretty good and helped me get some ideas that I am going to work with.

I am going to use a wood framed vat with a liquid applied liner inside it. I am going to try a couple of different products to see how they perform and will report back. One is an epoxy and the other is a plastic rubber compound similar when dry to the rubbermaid material used for their tubs. I looked at tons of different coatings and narrowed the list down to two.

I decided early on I wasn't going to mess with glass at all. too much potential for disaster, and I am pretty sure that even if a tree were to fall on the vats I have built they would still be standing.

Balla, your system is looking good, I can't wait to see what you can do for the local market there. send me an email with what you are looking for and I will try to get you a list.

I can say that I have no first hand knowledge, only what I have read, but what I have found is along the same lines as what crazzy posted although Gresham may have a point in that the US can further prohibit using Cites as well.

The aquaculture certification info is a bit murky, and while I was pretty sure that even Cites bodies recognized it I can't say for sure. If it is not in place now I would certainly expect there to be some sort of recognition for it in the near future.

Back to work... I will try to get some pics up this weekend, but it is starting to look really nice out there. )))

[MoCha920]

good luck

[BallaBooyeaH]

Raaden,



Few questions.



I have been looking around Ireland and found this flower grower that has been using PT for over 20 years.

Firstly he says that the double skinning has no need – Not sure how to take this. He also says that I would be better off with automated side curtains than the louvers with powered fans for cooling the PT down.


Also he recommends to heat the water rather than heat the room – This kinda makes sense to me as I can use heat exchangers powered by oil burners or wood pellette boilers and the heat in the water will heat the room. He say you pay to much to heat the room just to heat the water - simmiliar for him but he heats the soil via ducting of pipes under the soil - he only needs 10 degrees for the soil

Anyway. Another thought after seeing his operation and has got me thinking. Yourself Steve and others seem to go for a PT that is single arched. If you were to go double arched than hey a lot more room to grow with ??? Is the environmental the reason for going smaller – heating cooling etc….

If to go big from the start then more stock – more turnaround….


What do you think.

Here are some pictures of his setup

old single one - 20 year old plastic been on for 10 years


DOuble tunnel as I was talking about - Look at the room inside this baby.


Lourves that he uses in his tunnels - says they are old - do the job but chew electricity.


Andrew

[raaden]

Andrew,

Those are really good questions, and I can give you my take on them but understand my decisions were based on my climate and setup which is very different from yours YMMV!!! I will give them a shot and let me know what you think.

Double skinning does have a purpose... insulation. How much of a total affect it has is a can of worms however. I have seen very different numbers on the insulation factor of different types of covering from PC panels, single layer, double layer, and what I am using which is single layer with boutique coating. obviously the makers of the type of covering are going to give you different info, and what the 'real numbers' are; I am honestly not sure. Lets take that out of the equation and think about the other things that could make a difference. The biggest ones I can think of are:
Holes. If you get a hole in a single layer covering in the middle of winter that could be catastropic
Weather. In the case of a storm the second air filled layer gives some amout of buffer from the wind. I can tell you first hand that when I put on and inflated the second layer I saw a huge difference in how the plastic handled wind. With one layer it flapped, made noise, and seemed like it was pulling on the fasteners. Once the second layer was finished I had about the same amount of wind (~25-30 mph) and saw no real affect the wind had on the covering at all, No Flapping, very little noise and with my hand on the attachment points I could hardly feel it pull at all.
Covering Types: Most of the boutique coverings need an outside layer to prevent UV from damaging the coatings they use. So if you are going to look at these types of covering you will need to double skin the frame.

As far as the choice of ventilation/HVAC this is a much murkier topic, and will be very dependent on the climate anomalies. For my climate type louvres with an Evap Cooler was by far the best choice. A sidewall curtain can't really be used with an evap cooler (I found this out the hard way, as I ordered it this way and had to change during shipment...). A general rule for this might be that if you are going to skip any cooling than side curtains are a great idea vs the louvres. In either case you are going to need to use High powered exhaust fans to move the air through the building unless your temps don't get above 75-80, as well as circulating fans to move the air in the building.

Heating the water vs heating the air is a great topic to get into and I would love to see this worked out against a broad set of conditions. I can't say I know anything but in the case of soil it might make sense to heat it vs the environment, but I looked into it a bit when I was planning my setup, but couldn't get my head around how much of difference either setup would make. With that I decided that the "tried and tested" method was what I wanted to do. I came up with some numbers that made it seem like it would be better financially to heat the water by a little bit, but I was afraid of what sort of unknowns might cause problems, and one of the things (simplified for demonstration) that I came up with was that I would need to heat and cool each tank independently which would get complicated. What if one tank gets hot and needs to be cooled. I would need to let cool air in to cool it off or invest in chillers for each tank. Then if one is hot and another is cold I am going to start fighting one tank against another as far as the overall atmosphere goes. If I cool the atmosphere I can maintain all of the tanks together for the most part. Another consideration is the amount of evap and condensation that will happen in the winter. I am guessing that evaporation in the winter will go up by a factor of 10 if you decide to heat the water, and then all the water that evaporates from the vats will end up on the outer walls of the structure running down the sides as well as contributing to the rusting of the structure.

The only reason for going single arched is cost and space. The cost of the structure and the lack of space at my current site. When/If I expand I am going to look into a triple arched single space greenhouse. Absolutely the more space the better not only for the amount of grow space but also conditions are MUCH easier to maintain in a large space. Most of the initial costs go up linearly, but maintenance (heating/cooling/land) go up much less than linearly as you consider a bigger and bigger space. The biggest reason for me was that I can run a single GH myself (w/ wifes help ) without hiring anyone. If I expand I would need to hire help (huge expense relatively) and want to know for sure that I can support the costs before I go there.

If you can 'afford' to go big then I would definitely say do it, understand that it is quite a bit of money. When I was looking for investors I planned out the big house and the equipment and in the first year I was going to spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $250,000 (yes 1/4th million) to make it through construction and growout. I could have raised it but...

Hope that gives you some info, and like I said at the beginning this really only applies to my setup in my climate and things could be very different for a different type of setup in a different climate. I am sure you will get it right... You are doing your homework and that is the most important thing

[raaden]

While I was working on the next couple of updates I realized that I forgot to post the last set. I made the webpage for them but never updated the thread (that is what putting in a 9-5 and then putting in another 4+hrs of construction will do to you). I thought I should go ahead and take care of that before the rest.

After the completion of the structural stuff it was time to start working on getting the inside ready for prodution. I spent the next two weeks (early to mid May) wiring up the main equipment. It was ridiculously hot even back then with ambient temps in the 70's the greenhouse was getting to be well over 90 and just dead air. That is miserable to work in. It took about a week to get the mains wired up and the plumbing started. After that the fans were next. Once they were done it was not bad in the GH except for the fact that it was still blowing hot air around but atleast it was bearable.

After that I installed the motors on the intake shutters but just taped them open because I needed to get the electricity to the back wall before they could be put on thermostats. That was going to take a while, and I planned on getting them done while I did the evap cooler. For now it works and they don't really need to shut... do they?



I can't steal my thunder from the latest updates just yet so I will leave it at that but am going to use this weekend to get caught up on all the things that have been done... and there have been alot.

[raaden]

Even though there have been no updates for the last few weeks things have been very busy at the Reef Farm. Two pretty big tasks are out of the way and there is only one more thing to do before the tanks get filled late next week. The picture below shows the gh as it stands now.


Apologies for the lack of updates again, but building the vats, and constructing the evap cooler was a bigger task than anticipated. Especially the vats. It took three ideas to come up with a winner, but if the calculations are correct these should be able to withstand holding ~4tons for atleast 3-5 years if not much longer. They are basically built like a super reinforced version of the floor in your house. The reinforcing should prevent any spreading issues and the way the corners are tied in they should not be able to separate even when full to the very top.


The final size is 8x6x2.25 and the bracing is 2x4's 12" on center. The inner walls are made of OSB and all weather screws were used to hold everything together. The best part is that even when the most expensive of the liners is used they will still come in just under the budget price.


The other big thing that had to get done was that the evap cooler had become a complete necessity. So much so that lining the vats was moved to the background because at the time ambient temps were reaching the mid 80's and temps in the gh were breaking 110. That is a tough place to work and for a week or two at the end of building the vats I had to wait until the sun went down to get out there and work.


That wasn't even the worst of it either... the weather was calling for temps to steadily rise over the next week or so and should reach the high 90's within a week. There was no way I could see myself being able to work if it got much hotter in there. In order to get the evap cooler done the electrical had to be finished and the plumbing (which hadn't even been started yet) had to be done as well. It was going to be quite a next 10 days, and to top it off I lost all my helpers. The neighbor was not going to be available for next few months, and the wife and kid were going to be on vacation (without me ) for the week. On top of that I had to make some modifications to the setup of the cooler to make it work in the opening I had. It was a bit oversized for the size of the house, but I need all of the cooling I can get.


After planning out all of the modifications I finally got construction done Tuesday of last week and man am I glad I did. That thing works great, We had 2 straight days of just under 100 outside and the temps in the gh were pretty stable at just over 85, and it feels even better inside than that with the cool moist air circulating. Unforunately the system runs pretty much nonstop all day and draws some serious power ~25A while all of it is going.


This week I am going to need to level all of the tanks and get them raised up on the blocks so that this weekend I can get the liners on and get some water in during the week after. Once I get some water in and get a chance to check for leaks if everything goes well I will get some livestock the week after and start acclimation. I can't wait

[BallaBooyeaH]

Raden - Wow you are flying.

What type of liners are you planning to use?

I have the firestone 1mm rubber lining - Worls great but I came into problems when it came to drilling in them to put plumbing in them.
Problem was when I drilled and made a hole in the liner - if it is not dead flat - leaks. I ended up using tunze for flow and up and over the edge for feeding the skimmer and closed loop. If I was to do it again then I would be making sure that the holes are away from the edge so where the liner has a flap due to climbing a wall - this is clear of where the hole is to be drilled.

hope that helps a bit.

Andrew

[raaden]

I will be using a liquid epoxy liner for one tank and a modified plastic rubber liner for the other one. Then whichever works the best will be used for the remaining two. I decided early on to stay away from the EPDM liners for a variety of reasons. Mostly because of the need to put bulkheads in and the amount of activity that will happen in them causing leaks very similar to what you are describing. When I was researching different liner options all of the pond people I talked to suggested that for what I wanted to do rubbers liners would be a bad choice.

The three reasons that kept coming up was that in salt water the rubber liners will emulsify and eventually (< 3 years) breakdown to the point of leaking. The others were that mounting racks that have to get taken in and out often would eventually tear the liner, and sealing bulkheads is more of an art than I was willing to spend time learning. Apparently the best way is to use a hot iron and somehow melt the liner around whatever you want to seal.

It sounds like from your experience they were correct. My biggest issues with the liners I will be trying is whether I will get the coverage amount that has been described, and whether they will bond with the glue in the OSB. If both of those work that is another huge hurdle overcome.

[RedSonja]

Hey Raaden,

Looking good! You've certainly been busy! Busy here too, mostly good ways. I need to run now and get some new RBTA broodstock but wanted to say thanks for the update and pix and say we're still happy to help ya whenever we can.

-Sonja

[raaden]

Sonja, if you aren't doing anything on Saturday and want to come over to help out with lining the vats, you are more than welcome to. I am going to try to get started earlyish as they need some time to cure before evening falls and dewpoint is hit. If you are going to make it PM or email me and I will give you the details. The next thing I will definitely need some help on is mounting the heater. That won't be for a few weeks, but it is a bohemoth and is easily a 2-3 person lift.

All,

I also forgot to put in my earlier posts that I spent the better part of another week prepping for and dealing with the first tropical storm of the season. The Carolinas got hit with the first (and hopefully the last ) tropical storm this season to come through. Even though it was supposed to bring only marginal winds and heavy downpours I was not going to get caught this early. I made sure I did everything I could to seal up the gh and get the current project into a state where even if the worst happend it would still be okay. At that time I had just finished up with the vats and was working on the plumbing and electrical, and had wires laying everywhere in the GH and I kept seeing visions of of live wires being ripped from their mounts and laying in pools of water.

Fortunately the storm was pretty weak by the time it reached us and the winds were not much more than a bad thunderstorm with the max at about 20-25. The structure did tremendously and hardly even flinched at it. The biggest issue was that there was significant water coming in through the bottoms of the shutters, but nothing too bad.

[slumpysix]

raaden,
never posted here but have been following along from the start. Just have to say you are doing a fantasic job all around. I know how it can be working in the sweltering heat and it's not fun. Everything looks top notch and can't wait to see some water in those babies...
take it easy
Jeff

[raaden]

Jeff,

Good to have you along, and thanx for the great words. As far as the water goes... You and me both. I can honestly say that I will be completely stoked if I can get water in them next week and be able to order some rock and sand towards the end of that week.

Also since you are a carpenter can you give some feedback on what you think of the vats. Do you think the way they are designed they will be able to stand up to the load that will be on them. I believe they will be more than strong enough based on the load ratings that framers use for houses, but it is always good to get another opinion.

[Serioussnaps]

Still tagging along...PM me whenver you need a helping hand! Im free most mornings and weekends.

[Serioussnaps]

Still tagging along...PM me whenver you need a helping hand! Im free most mornings and weekends.

[slumpysix]

The lap joints on the top are the most critical as the bottom plate attached to the base is. Using screws is a tighter bond and you certainly should not have any probs. You could always opt to use a sheathing on the outside of the vat to replace the diagonal brace if you wanted to. other than that just make sure all your screw heads are set below the surface...watch out for splinters!..
cya

[Whaledriver]

Construction adhesive wouldn't hurt? I second the sheathing on the outside.

[RedSonja]

Originally posted by raaden
Sonja, if you aren't doing anything on Saturday and want to come over to help out with lining the vats, you are more than welcome to. I am going to try to get started earlyish as they need some time to cure before evening falls and dewpoint is hit. If you are going to make it PM or email me and I will give you the details. The next thing I will definitely need some help on is mounting the heater. That won't be for a few weeks, but it is a bohemoth and is easily a 2-3 person lift.

This Saturday would probably not work as Greg gets home from London late Friday night and I'm sure he'll be zombified for a couple days from jet lag. Hopefully Sunday evening my boys will be here, for the rest of the summer, so we can bring them over for additional slave labor.

-Sonja

[mr.wilson]

On the subject of coatings, I've made a number of plywood tanks and vats over the years using two step epoxy paint as well as one step modified epoxy paint.

The one step modified epoxy was okay, but it required more coats than a true two step epoxy. Benjamin Moore Chex-Wear was the one I used.

Pratt & Lambert makes a good two step epoxy paint, available in many colours. Just remember, once it's mixed, you have to use it all in about 8 hours. The last few times I've used epoxies, they've been from an industrial supply house that services boat and auto repair shops. I don't know the manufacturer, as they mix it in the store in a generic can.

Even though epoxies are waterproof, the vat will take-on moisture. I had problems with dry rot when I put a few vats into storage for a few months. Just like a wood boat, they need to stay wet.

Epoxy is a little brittle, so you need to seal the seams with silicone after it's painted. Some people use fiberglass in the corners, but I find this to be too labour intensive and messy with no measurable benefit.

I did some plumbing and filtration work on a 50,000 gallon freshwater tank, where they hired a professional to line it with a rubberized compound. They had significant leaks, and poor adhesion, but this was a cement application, where humidity and PH come into play.

Now would be a good time to test your fan and louvers, as the epoxy will burn your eyes and lungs. I assume you picked up some laquer thinner for clean up and thinning the first coat.

[kaptken]

one liner i have considered, but not tried, is the fiberglass reinforced plastic shower liner (FRP) they sell at HD or lowes in 4 x 8 sheets. about 1/8 inch thick with a smooth pebbled white finish. finish vat framing, line with 3/4 ply then glue liner to inside. then i believe you could use a thickened fiberglass putty mix to fill and bond the seams like a fillet weld, and overlay the wet putty fillet with 6 inch fiberglass tape and paint in with more polyester boat resin. pretty much like making a stitch and glue boat. you could check with the company to make sure polyester resin bonds well to it. If so, it should work.

http://www.kemlite.com/structoglas/str_products.cfm

i would probably order some smooth finish sheets for better gasket sealing of pipe penetrations. the wood frame and ply take the water load, so reinforce the corners with angle iron plates. the liner just makes the durable water seal. I would also first paint the entire inside plywood surface with boat yard polyester resin, and let cure before applying the liner. extra strenght and moisture barrier to prevent rot.

has anyone tried this FRP shower liner?

[dleggett]

If I read the earlier post correctly, you plan to use Tunze pumps for general circulation in each vat. Is that still the plan?
How do you plan to configure them?