Copper and FOWLR tank

Casino · #1 05/03/2005, 01:24 PM

Who here has treated there FOWLR tank with copper? Any negative effects long term? Has your LR purpled back or did it even not lose color during treatment? What copper medication did you use? Thanks.

moggyhill · #2 05/03/2005, 01:54 PM

copper will kill off your live rock and permanently pollute your tank. Can't you use a qt tank instead?

spamin76 · #3 05/03/2005, 02:20 PM

Ditto once the copper gets in the rock it doesn't get out. That's the quickest way to ruin a couple hundred dollars of live rock permanently.

Confooseld · #4 05/03/2005, 03:02 PM

Not to mention it will slowly kill your fish
Like you using antibiotics constantly

Casino · #5 05/03/2005, 03:11 PM

Curses. No. I cant use a hospital tank. I would need a pretty big one. No space for it. Im trying hypo and its not working. I guess I will just let them be. Let them fight it or give in. I hate seeing them like this so if they survive great, if they die, better, they wont suffer anymore, I mean if ich hurts, does it?

SPS Addiction · #6 05/03/2005, 03:31 PM

ive heard that copper was the best way to keep parasites and other diseases away. as for copper with live rock it will kill all the growth but it is still able to keep the bacteria for the tank. please correct me if im wrong., but this is what my LFS has told me.

Casino · #7 05/03/2005, 04:53 PM

You will soon learn that all your LFS tells you isnt true.

fishykid9212 · #8 05/03/2005, 08:26 PM

WELL I had copper treated my tank with copper for about 6 months (last february to august) with the liverock and everything in the tank. I used polyfilters and carbon and it is all removed. I never had purple coraline on my rocks when I got them. Right now I have it starting to grow. Oh and that is without adding any additives.

NwG · #9 05/03/2005, 08:34 PM

How about a large rubbermaid storage bin as a hospital tank? I have used them in the past.. cheap and works great... BTW hypo will put a pretty big dent in the amount of life in liverock as well..

Casino · #10 05/03/2005, 08:59 PM

No can do on the rubermaid. I live in an apartment. 2 small kids walking around. 1 of the sick fish is a 10 inch lionfish. The kids can easily get stung. I also think removing them from the tank will only stress them more. I will just let them fight it out cause if I dose the copper and they dont make it, I will feel worse cause then I have all this copper in there. Will just keep them in hypo and hope for the best.

nickiwit · #11 05/03/2005, 11:28 PM

We have used copper in our 210 FO. The rock that already had purple coraline still looks purple but I don't see any new growth on the other rocks. We have never had an ammonia problem and the tank is heavily stocked. But we have a kick *** skimmer which helps. Most recently we used cupramine. We have even added inverts to the tank after removing the copper that did fine.

ReefGeekster · #12 05/04/2005, 01:11 AM

I just coppered my 90g FOWLR with Copper Power (copper Sulfate), I've tried Cupramine but didn't work that well. After coppering the 90g
I checked my water parameters and ammonia did spike quite a bit even after siphoning out dead bristle worms so I did daily water changes for about a week before things settle down, the tank has been established for a year. Other than the ammonia spike the fish are eating well and acting normal, after 90 days of using copper will take as much as it out as possible. The tank looks no different now as it did before using copper.

NwG · #13 05/04/2005, 01:29 AM

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/copperprodfaqs.htm

Really it is not a good idea to use any copper products in your display tank... It can have a very negative effect on your biological filtration, and will be absorbed into calcium based substrate/liverock.. Yes, some things will survive, but many unseen animals will not.. It really is not a good idea.. What happens if you want to convert to a reef later on? Are you going to toss a few hundred dollars worth of live rock? Some things such as polyfilter will remove copper from the water, but it will still be bound in the rock/substrate and slowly kill corals/inverts over time...

The use of QT is more than worth it.. A 20-30g rubbermade storage container will cost less than $20.. Yes it will take a little more time out of your day, but isn't that worth it for healthy livestock?

Please consider this before adding copper to your display tank... I am not here to start a fight/flame anyone.. It just really isn't a good idea!!

moggyhill · #14 05/04/2005, 06:16 AM

just because you can't see it immediately harm your tank doesn't mean it hasn't done long term damage. Some people just don't know or don't care when presented with evidence as to what copper does in a tank. Eventually it wil cost them alot of money.

spamin76 · #15 05/04/2005, 07:39 AM

Copper is an immuno suppresant anyway - you might cure ich or brookynella just to have the fish die of a minor infection they could have easily fought off had they not been exposed to a long run of copper.

You might consider ozone - when injected through your skimmer and controlled by an ORP controller it is pretty effective at killing free floating parasites - if used in conjunction with UV sterilization and carbon it can absolutely decimate parasites while keeping your water crystal clear. I know it's an expensive thing to set all that up but...

PuffersKick · #16 05/04/2005, 10:17 AM

I had the same dilemma. At the end of the day it came down to which I was more concerned with, my fish or my rock. I think the answer is obvious. You can always get more rock, but you can't replace your fish. I'm sure it has some negative effects on the rock, but I added the copper and my fish was cured in 2 days.

Casino · #17 05/04/2005, 11:17 AM

What kind of copper did you use? Was it a FOWLR? Does you LR look white or did it ever loose its brown color?

NwG
According to those articles, we can use copper and there are ways to remove the copper, cabon and polyfiber. It will take time but it will take it all out. They dont recomend it, but I just dont want to see my fish suffer anymore. Maybe I will just put them out of their misery. Placing them in a QT tank will surely kill them, just at a slower pace. Might as well let them die in a place they now and feel secure.

nickiwit · #18 05/04/2005, 11:31 AM

That is the same thing that happened to us. Our livestock is more important to us then our rock. Most of the fish in the coppered tank are 3-6 years old. Besides we have a reef tank also that I will never copper.

It was a long time ago when we used copper in our FO. We do have many QTs now. The cupramine was used in a 72 gallon QT.

ReefGeekster · #19 05/04/2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CASINO
What kind of copper did you use? Was it a FOWLR? Does you LR look white or did it ever loose its brown color?

NwG
According to those articles, we can use copper and there are ways to remove the copper, carbon and polyfiber. It will take time but it will take it all out. They don't recommend it, but I just don't want to see my fish suffer anymore. Maybe I will just put them out of their misery. Placing them in a QT tank will surely kill them, just at a slower pace. Might as well let them die in a place they now and feel secure.

I for one have coppered my FOWLR and saved all the fish. My live rock looks the same as before, all fish are alive and well. And it I and the fish are a happy campers

I'm just letting the copper run for 90 days before I discontinue it and when I do I'll just do regular water changes without adding copper and then after 60 days I'll use polyfilter. Better to lose a few $'s on rock than $'s on fish and besides the rock will still provide aquascaping and shelter for the fish years to come.
Just a couple of things to remember after initialing adding copper, monitor your water, water changes and adding copper as needed, removing and inverts such as snails, crabs, corals ect. get a long handle net to scoop up any dead bristleworms. I used Copper Power (copper Sulfate) 60% less toxic for fish than regular copper.
People in our Reef club have done this and no downside as long as you monitor your water and copper levels and plan on keeping it a FOWLR, I'm in the third week of running copper in my 90g FOWLR and if you want a current pic I can e-mail you one. I have Golden Butterflies, Harlequin Tusk, Blue Regal Tang, and other.... I too got tired of losing fish. I have established a QT 20g tank with copper live sand and fake corals for the future but way too small for all the fish I currently have but will work for new additions and have had it cycle and now houses a flame angel. Don't lose your fish copper the tank monitor the water and sleep better at night.

ReefGeekster · #20 05/04/2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nickiwit
We have used copper in our 210 FO. The rock that already had purple coraline still looks purple but I don't see any new growth on the other rocks. We have never had an ammonia problem and the tank is heavily stocked. But we have a kick *** skimmer which helps. Most recently we used cupramine. We have even added inverts to the tank after removing the copper that did fine.

Does your skimmer take out the copper? I turned mine on water flow only for now.

Casino · #21 05/04/2005, 11:55 AM

Thank you for your insight ReefGeekster! I really appreciate it. I really want to do the right thing for my fish. Thats why im holding off dosing copper cause I know its a very harsh chemical, but ick is a very hash parasite that need to be dealt with. After reading those articles on webmedia I think I will use the copper safe from mardel. It seems that its a free form of copper I think and it will be removed more easily with carbon, polyfiber and good water changes. I would love to see pictures of your tank, not only to see how your tank is doing but just to see another tank. Thank you.
Anybody else have anything else to add?

ReefGeekster · #22 05/04/2005, 12:22 PM

Here's a pic, sorry for the dirty glass was going to take a razor blade to it this weekend, as you can see all the fish are begging for food, see my little blue hippo?

Casino · #23 05/04/2005, 12:30 PM

Very nice. Im amazed that your tusk hasent chowed down on that tiny tang. My tank was like that, full of life, now its just a dead pool, hopefully I can beat this out and restock my prized fish. How badly infected were you fish? How long into the treatment did you see an improvement?

NwG · #24 05/04/2005, 12:42 PM

I am surprised your puffer hasn't showed any ill effects from the copper... They are very sensitive to it..

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pufferdisfaqs.htm

Again the negatives vastly outnumber the positives when it comes to useing copper in a display tank... There is risk of killing ALL your bio-filtration, The bound copper issue, copper's ability to make your livestock MORE at risk to illness...

stef82 · #25 05/04/2005, 01:57 PM

I used CopperSafe in my 58g FO.
Valentine Puffer was fine. I wanted to start hypo, but i had to leave town for a few days. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. The parasite had killed 3 of my favorite fish, after the CopperSafe not a single one died.

Save you fish, your not turning into a reef anyway. You could, qt the live rock in a rubbermaid and copper the tank, might help keep your rock and your kids safe!