coral frag transport laws

[barnett8]

I am going to the Thia Islands (great reefs there) next year, and was wondering:

Is it possible to bring coral frags that I have collected there home to be propogated?

I realise it would take some effort to do all of this (I brought a puffer fish back from Bangkok last time I was there, legally I might add, two years ago.)

Where should I go to get the permit, or whatever I need to do this?

And most importantly, how do I get past the laws about fluids on the plane?

Any advice you have would be useful.

Thanks.

[billsreef]

Your going to need a CITES permit to bring them in. Contact the country your going to about what's required to collect and export, and US Fish and Wildlife for import info. On the transport question, talk the airlines, it's likely you'll need to sent them through as freight or at the very least baggage.

[GreshamH]

If your coming into the US you'll need to conctact US Fish and Wildlife service and enter thru a designatedport of entry only. In other words what airport you land at is very limitted.

[aurora]

First of all...it's illegal to collect corals from the wild without a lisense. Most places that are accessible by snorkeling in Thailand will likely have signs posted to that effect including the fines you will be levied if caught by the local police. At least that was the way it was when I was in Thailand 8 years ago. If you are collecting it via scuba, your dive master will not look kindly on you collecting since he may lose his job if you are caught under his supervision. Trust me, you don't want to deal with the local police in Southeast Asia if you can help it. If you get caught, it will be a pain in the b*tt.

Your best bet would be to check out a place in Bangkok called ?Wiggin Market if it still exists. It has a local name but I don't remember it. It was not very far from the airport. It's essentially a big flea market with an aquarium section that sells everything you'd ever want for your reef/salt/freshwater aquarium. When I was there 8 years ago I thought I was in reef heaven. If you look at my thumbnail, you will see what I picked up there. That's a fuscia heteractis aurora and I've never seen the same coral for sale in the states. I think I paid $7 for it. The dealers there can pack your stuff in oxygen and plastic bag just like your lfs. If you have a lay over of several hours in Bangkok before you leave like I did, hop into a taxi and check out this place and refrain from collecting from wild colonies. Heck, it you buy alot, I'm sure they can professionally pack them in a large styrofoam/cardboard box for you just like the way your lfs receives them. All you have to do is check the box in with your luggage. The catch is you can't declare it and hope you don't get flagged for inspection at custom and if you did, they will be reluctant to open a sealed and taped box. If you are caught at custom, I'm not sure what they'll do but they will likely confiscate everything.

[walmart]

Put it in waterbottles and label as "plants"

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by aurora
First of all...it's illegal to collect corals from the wild without a lisense. Most places that are accessible by snorkeling in Thailand will likely have signs posted to that effect including the fines you will be levied if caught by the local police. At least that was the way it was when I was in Thailand 8 years ago. If you are collecting it via scuba, your dive master will not look kindly on you collecting since he may lose his job if you are caught under his supervision. Trust me, you don't want to deal with the local police in Southeast Asia if you can help it. If you get caught, it will be a pain in the b*tt.

Your best bet would be to check out a place in Bangkok called ?Wiggin Market if it still exists. It has a local name but I don't remember it. It was not very far from the airport. It's essentially a big flea market with an aquarium section that sells everything you'd ever want for your reef/salt/freshwater aquarium. When I was there 8 years ago I thought I was in reef heaven. If you look at my thumbnail, you will see what I picked up there. That's a fuscia heteractis aurora and I've never seen the same coral for sale in the states. I think I paid $7 for it. The dealers there can pack your stuff in oxygen and plastic bag just like your lfs. If you have a lay over of several hours in Bangkok before you leave like I did, hop into a taxi and check out this place and refrain from collecting from wild colonies. Heck, it you buy alot, I'm sure they can professionally pack them in a large styrofoam/cardboard box for you just like the way your lfs receives them. All you have to do is check the box in with your luggage. The catch is you can't declare it and hope you don't get flagged for inspection at custom and if you did, they will be reluctant to open a sealed and taped box. If you are caught at custom, I'm not sure what they'll do but they will likely confiscate everything.

Yeah I got 3 NICE GREEN FROGSPAWN pieces, an elephant ear mushroom, and 3 golf ball size Goni's in Vietnam 5 years ago.
Packed them in my suit case, with shooes all on top of them (For the cloaking effect) When they asked, i told them it was dead coral/rocks. (I got all pieces for under 15 bucks!!!)

Looking back on it:
a) I was a little too brave before boarding, not thinking of getting caught
b) woried the entire time, as the outside temprature on flight was 17deg, and I wondered if they would freez
c) Sweating gallons going through customs in the US, as ther are heavy fines (read on the plane the customs form!!)
d) About messed my pants as it went through the bag X-ray, and she pointed to one of the 2 Bags to have it opened for inspection (we had 2 bags, exactly the same, i had one marked, but the tag fell off in transit..lololol)

There REALLY STRICT about what comes in these days. I would have to say pass on the Quarter back sneak type action.

I was back in Vietnam this year in September, to Nha Trang, (Called the pearl of vietnam) We went snorkling, and WOW the SPS was simply AMAZING, the best coral I have EVER SEEN in the ocean. Blue and orange colored acros, Yellow and blue blastos. I will have to go back some day and try to export from there.

[billsreef]

If you try and sneak anything back without proper permits in place, you will at the very least get a very heft fine and be flagged for inspection every trip you take. It's not worth it. Do all legal and above board, or don't do it all.

[barnett8]

Ok I would like to point out: I am doing this LEGALLY

I asked this a year in advance so I could get the permits and get it all legalized. So I guess I will be contacting Fish and Wildlife sometime soon to find out what I should do, but how would be a better to ship them, then in baggies, how should I keep them warm.

[aurora]

How are you going to LEGALLY collect corals from the wild in Thailand? Last I heard, they are part of CITES and have very strict requirements for collections. Last I heard, no country interested in protecting their reefs will hand out lisenses to amateur tourists interested in hacking at their reef as part of the visit.

My advice to you is to buy your corals from a dealer in Thailand and hook up with a distributor in this country with an import lisense so you can bring what you buy into this country. I'm not sure how much a distributor will charge you for that transaction.

[billsreef]

I'd start with contacting Thailand first, make sure that they will issue the necessary permits.

[jpeconsult]

buy at LFS and lie about where you got it from.

[steven_dean17]

I thought that a big part of this hobby was to produce as close as possible an natural looking reef that people could enjoy and learn from. I however did not realize to what point some people would take this idea. It is totaly beyond me how some can justify the taking/stealing of natural reef just to save a few dollars. How exotic does a coral have to be to make a beautiful show piece. How about this idea, "I went to a frag swap and traded for this beautiful.........................? or option 2 "Thats a pretty piece, where did you get it?" "I illegally cut it of a reef and transported into the country." "WOW your soooooooooo cool!" IMO if you have to steal it you don't have the intelligence to own an aquarium. Go ahead argue with me.

[JCTewks]

Originally posted by steven_dean17
I thought that a big part of this hobby was to produce as close as possible an natural looking reef that people could enjoy and learn from. I however did not realize to what point some people would take this idea. It is totaly beyond me how some can justify the taking/stealing of natural reef just to save a few dollars. How exotic does a coral have to be to make a beautiful show piece. How about this idea, "I went to a frag swap and traded for this beautiful.........................? or option 2 "Thats a pretty piece, where did you get it?" "I illegally cut it of a reef and transported into the country." "WOW your soooooooooo cool!" IMO if you have to steal it you don't have the intelligence to own an aquarium. Go ahead argue with me.

I really don't think that anyone in this thread has talked about having taken wild colonies from the ocean....but were talking about buying corals at LFS in other countries and "sneaking" them into the US in their luggage (which is illegal also).

The OP is wanting to do everything LEGALLY, notice He said this is 1 year before going on this trip.

I'm sure their are people who are stupid/selfish enough to do what you are talking about, but I would hope they are not on this forum.


Barnett8: Are you still considering collecting wild colonies legally, or purchasing from LFS and bringing back?

[steven_dean17]

Thank you JCTewks for pointing that out to me. I wasn't aware however that I had accused anyone in this thread of doing anything wrong. If you read what I wrote completely you can see that at the end the letters (IMO), that stands for In My Opinion. Thanks again: Steve

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by JCTewks
I really don't think ...... I'm sure their are people who are stupid/selfish enough to do what you are talking about, but I would hope they are not on this forum.....

JCTewks, Dont fall in to "the e-Haters" traps on RC, they just look and dig for threads to start e-fights. (IMHO)

I call safeys!!

[saveafish]

As long as you get the proper permits. That is what matters. I know there is a lot that collect corals over there. The bad thing is they just hack a chunk off a peice or take the whole thing. It is much better to have someone that knows what their doing and does it proper with respect. But you will need to find out what can and cant be propped. Here is a funny EX. If you collect certin turtles in a native state you will be fined but go in the neighboring state and it is ok. There are different sections set for different collection. When you get the permits you will get the where and what list.

[aurora]

Even if you get all the permits and able to collect and import your collected corals, I still give your corals less than 20% of making it to your tank alive and less than 5% of maintaining the same color that you see in the wild, especially SPS. You would have to provide some form of stable temperature during transport and with the tropical ambien temperature running at 90 degrees, you have a good chance of roasting your coral before they make it home or die from oxygen deprivation/poor packaging. So you want to go through all this effort to bring in a few corals that will likely die from transport and likely brown out in your tank after a few weeks if they make it. You're not gonna save money unless your time is worthless and you don't plan to do anything on your vacation except to collect corals...what a waste of a $1000 ticket to Thailand.

Take my advice, spend your vacation in Thailand soaking in the local culture and first class service like the $10 pool-side foot massage (...or any other body part you want massaged....LOL). When you get home, get your corals frags from local hobbyist where you are guaranteed a 100% survival and a great chance that they will look the same if not better in your tank. SAVE THE REEF

[Turbovinny]

heres something about importing laws in the US, hope this helps

http://www.petsforum.com/characin/ca...ort_rules.html

[ziggy222]

if he follows the laws set to protect the reefs i see nothing wrong at all will what he's doing.my lfs told me that the u.s. is getting the corals other countries,mainly japan does'nt want cause we pay less.some corals are unavailable to us or cost $600 for a small frag about 3 inches around for micromussa and such.i hope he figuires how to do what he wants and brings back a boat load of corals we can't buy here and frags them often.laws are to protect reefs and the way i see it,if its legal then its likely not hurting anything.good luck and share when you can.

[eshook]

Barnett8,

I was thinking of doing this as well. I travel for conferences and workshops and usually can find time to visit a fish shop. I always wondered how to get around the current fluid restrictions. If you are in the states it would probably be simplest just to overnight a box to your home address the day you leave. Unfortunately then you are paying the shipping when you could throw it in your luggage.

I'm not sure what state you are located in, but I assume you will need to get proper permits for the destination state, country of destination & origin. I'm willing to bet only coastal states will care about corals coming in, but I know in Hawaii they didn't want *anything* organic going in or out. I also assume CA has a lot of restrictions. But I bet Illinois & Iowa don't even know what a coral is

If it were me, I would contact the airline you plan on traveling and explain the situation. You will probably spend 4+ hours on the phone just to talk to someone who could possibly answer your question, but it would be the best place to start in my opinion. You need to talk to someone familiar with the overseas (and in state) regulations.

I would also be prepared to pay some heavy fees for permits. *And* extra time at the airport to explain your permit and them to examine the 'luggage' It may end up being cheaper to ship via global UPS.

Either way please keep us updated. I am very interested in this topic, because it would be great to pickup various corals across the world in my travels.

[stevelkaneval]

your all just jelouse.

[jdmcivicek9]

what i dont understand is why some of you people posting cant get through your head that barnett said he wanted to do it LEGALLY and you still make (IMO) a dumb comment on its illegal and you need a license and youll get fined if you do this etc... when all he wanted was some info on how to do it the LEGAL WAY...if you dont want to help him gather information on going about it the LEGAL WAY then why waste posting space with your negative comments???look barnett if you can get all the permits and get everything cleared through customs more power too you and i hope you post pics of all the sweet corals you picked up that you spent your trip gathering because you thought it was important to you regardless of what anyone else said!!! if i was in your position, a year out from a sweet trip with an opportunity like you have i would do the same thing, gather as much info as i could and see what i could accomplish...worst case scenario being you can get the permits and clearance and cant do it...but at least you can say you gave it a valiant effort...sorry i vented but it just seemed lame all the criticizing for wanting to do somthing the right way...good luck!!

[airinhere]

I have asked similar questions and was directed in a couple of useful directions. Here is what I found

The font is black, background is brown, but highlight things and you can read it easily. Lost of good information on this guys webpage
http://www.petsforum.com/characin/ca...ort_rules.html

Want to see where the reefs are? check this website out
http://reefgis.reefbase.org/default....pecified=False

Cites Rules from FWS.gov website
http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/cpc.pdf

Get the stuff home Breathing bags
http://www.novalek.com/kordon/breathing_bags/index.htm


Good luck. Make sure you let us all know how you do.

[Dave & Monica]

Interesting topic. Just a thought for you, since I’ve lived in Spain and Italy a few times over and have always had a dog, I had to get an import certificate from a vet for my pet. Corals could be pets or to support your pets. It’s a possible avenue. Still doesn’t address the permits to collect but just the importing part here in the US. The certificate was only a few dollars from a vet from the country it left. Also on the same topic I found freight to be very careful all the way around with a pet, i.e. a small cat cage. The folks at the airline will also be able to call down and give instructions, like keep out of the sun and such. Again, you may find a better way but it’s an idea to possibly explore.

I’ve imported wines to the US and paying the permit, shipping, and tax was still cheaper and I was able to get what I want.

Interested how this all pans out for you and I appreciate you posting the question. /Dave

[Jake_07]

Originally posted by steven_dean17
I thought that a big part of this hobby was to produce as close as possible an natural looking reef that people could enjoy and learn from. I however did not realize to what point some people would take this idea. It is totaly beyond me how some can justify the taking/stealing of natural reef just to save a few dollars. How exotic does a coral have to be to make a beautiful show piece. How about this idea, "I went to a frag swap and traded for this beautiful.........................? or option 2 "Thats a pretty piece, where did you get it?" "I illegally cut it of a reef and transported into the country." "WOW your soooooooooo cool!" IMO if you have to steal it you don't have the intelligence to own an aquarium. Go ahead argue with me.

Where do you think lfs get most of their corals - collectors who take off the reefs, so whats so bad if you take them yourself. If you take a coral instead of buying it from a lfs it will be exactly the same, either way a coral will be taken off the reef you will just save your self quite a few $$$