What is a Tyree coral?

[wentreefgirl]

pm sent.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Al G Blenny
I'm not sure what you mean about being up front about business activities. I could be way off base but if you are talking about one or both of the business' I own all of the Mods already know. I told them right when I started my last business. Why would you think I am shady like that? Again if I understood that the wrong way I apologize.

You keep totally missing the point. The whole "waiting list" has no purpose other than to drive up the cost by making peopel think these things are rare, and that production is limited. Its to make people think that hes only got enough to frag once a month. The truth is, hes moving dozens of frags of each coral every month, if not more. That means that these things are a LOT more widespread than some of you seem to think.

Say hes moving a dozen frags a month, then all those people are now moving frags too. Thats a lot more frags than the 1 a month people seem to think there are.


He had TONS of frags at the meeting I went to. Some of the stuff went pretty damn cheap too.

[duec22]

Originally posted by RichConley
You keep totally missing the point. The whole "waiting list" has no purpose other than to drive up the cost by making peopel think these things are rare, and that production is limited. Its to make people think that hes only got enough to frag once a month. The truth is, hes moving dozens of frags of each coral every month, if not more. That means that these things are a LOT

I don't even know how to respond to that other than to ask how far up you had to reach for that line of BS....
Yes, some of the corals that he has had for several years that are still on the LE list produce far more than the 1 frag a month...However, anything that is new he is starting for a frag and he is not takeing multipule frags from it...which is the time that the waiting list is formed, and his production is limited. For example the watermellon chalice..how many extra frags of that did he have at that meeting? I don't know why he takes the lists out several years...as he will be producing more by then..and it will be most likely wide spread by then. Such as the Montipora aquituberculata, I'm not sure why that is still on the LE list as it's very wide spread out here...At the BAR swap I think I saw a good 10 frags of it floating around. It might be that he still has a high demand for it, just not from my area...And just FYI he doesn't keep track for what happens to a frag after it's out of his possesion, so he has no idea how many times over his stuff has been fraged out...the only thing he has to go by as far as demand is the number of requests that he gets.
But to say that these corals aren't rare, and that his production isn't limited is just ignorant.

[kozmo02]

I don't see what all the fuss is, who cares? LE, not LE, does it really matter? I have seen this argument so many times and it is just pointless.

If you don't like LE's then don't buy them, if you like LE's then go ahead and buy them. Yes it is a lot of hype and funny names, but so are a lot other things, remember blue zoas? acanths? countless SPS pieces? this hobby is a rollercoaster of trends.

If people want to spend their money on LE corals then let them, if you don't like it then at the very least don't be so judgmental of people who don't mind buying them and spending the cash, it is after all, their cash to spend.

[mummra100769]

i think it's more to the point of some of us see this as to much comercialism of the hobby (boy do i have a death wish for stating that.lol).

i know...i know... i am a retailer and some will not be able to get past that (some would say i do this out of spite...what ever)...but maybe this is just a little to far. i went to a web site of a person who has defended the LE practice before and i saw LE after LE coral listed at high prices. some of this stuff i have seen in not my LFS but other sites as well.

in a capitalist society every one can charge and buy and pay what ever they want it's fine by me but maybe this is just a little to much for some hobbyists to take. i am cool with it and i will have to live with my fake war coral (BTW i think that an only red with green centers would be more desired but thats just me... mine is bright red with bright green centers and no other colors what so ever). i just wish that the opposing side couls see the other part of this and look past the profit margin potential of this type of activity.

to each his own but as a retailer i do not like to see this in general and as a hobbyists it is more fun to get a so called look a like that is just as nice and a lower cost (sometimes nicer)...i am just not into the whole naming thing. also it's a big ocean and ther has to be more than just one morph or coloration of a coral and i bet over the entire united states a lot of these guys are a lot more common than you would think vfrom the LE status.

i mean that is really what it is right? a status symbol...to say you have an original LE so and so and be proud of that. status.

[kozmo02]

i agree with you on several points:

- I definitely agree finding your own is much cooler, if you are able to do so, generally it's the "right place at the right time" for good finds.

- I think some of it has to do with status, some people want to say they have this or that in their tank, and don't mind spending the money to do so. But then again status effects everyones daily lives in one way or another when you think about it.

My thing is, there are hobbyists that just all out attack people who buy LE's and to me, that's not cool. If a person wants to drop a small fortune on a LE coral than that's there business, if another person doesn't like it, bite your tongue and do with your reef as you please.

These guys sell LE's because they can, no business man in the world would ever lower prices if they didn't have to, it makes no sense, as a business selling LE's at top dollar is working, at least for now it is, they have wait lists clear into 2008 if I remember right for some pieces. That's just the way it goes, in this hobby, and in every other hobby for that matter, it certainly applies to the reptiles I keep, the good stuff goes for high prices because they can get it, doesn't matter if its an LFS or an online retailer, the pricing usually isn't too far off unless you are dealing with the trend corals or the LE's.

I for one, do not own any LE corals, and I would never put myself on a wait list for several years to get one, I am happy with what I have and what I have traded for, I don't have anything against anyone who wants to do it and spend the money, that is your decision to make and not my business, I just feel some hobbyists have grown far too judgmental and I don't know if it is jealousy, or just being too opinionated on the subject, but this topic has come up before and it has gotten a bit out of control if you ask me, I think everyone needs to chill out and let people do with their tanks what they want to do.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by mummra100769
i just wish that the opposing side couls see the other part of this and look past the profit margin potential of this type of activity.

Who cares about the profit margin. Besides, there really isn't too much. Have you ever met Steve? He's not exactly rolling in dough. Besides, if there was no profit to be made, would you do it? I know I wouldn't. Would your store carry Maxi-Jets for the same price as MarineDepot? No, nor would I expect you too. So he makes a little money. Big Deal. Commerical coral propogation isn't cheap or without risks. One major power outage can do an operation in.

to each his own but as a retailer i do not like to see this in general and as a hobbyists it is more fun to get a so called look a like that is just as nice and a lower cost (sometimes nicer)...i am just not into the whole naming thing. also it's a big ocean and ther has to be more than just one morph or coloration of a coral and i bet over the entire united states a lot of these guys are a lot more common than you would think vfrom the LE status.

Yeah, but as a hobbyists and one time marine scientist, I enjoy keeping corals that were grown from another hobbyists. I prefer conservation over dredeging in the ocean looking for that one nice morph. When a shop recieves a shipment, they recieve many undesirable (and unrequested) corals for that one nice specimen. I have seen you guys get Moorish Idols and Gonis when you didn't ask for them. It's sad to see these animals die because the shipper wanted to "Fill The Box."

i mean that is really what it is right? a status symbol...to say you have an original LE so and so and be proud of that. status. [/B]

Nope, typically, an LE coral (and I only like the old school jobbies) is something that is hardy, will grow into a known color morph, and is desirable. When it gets too big, you know someone will want a piece. When your green slimer gets too big, fragging becomes a waste because nobody wants any.

Besides, it's cool growing something that was propgated from a coral that has been in captivity for 5 or 10 years.

BTW, When I refer to LE, I refer to any "named" coral, nit just Steve's.

Oh yeah, Keith, why do they have these goofy names? Well, Vernon and hobbyists only recently started classifying corals, so people had to call them something to distinguish them. To that point, Steve can hardly scientifically ID them and I believe he doesn't keep up with the classification of the specific coral taxa.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by kozmo02
I for one, do not own any LE corals

Actually, that's not true.
http://www.reeffarmers.com/limitedmo...nasteriata.htm

[MiddletonMark]

Originally posted by tacocat
Oh yeah, Keith, why do they have these goofy names? Well, Vernon and hobbyists only recently started classifying corals, so people had to call them something to distinguish them.

I'd bet all my LE's for all of yours that if you asked Veron to ID one of our corals to species level [esp Acropora] - he'd laugh wildly.

Sure, folks in the hobby might claim to ID corals - just don't mix the ocean-scientists in that bunch, visual ID IME is not something they practice.

[mummra100769]

goofy names are fine (i like the approach zoa id took on this subject). $80.00 an inch is a little hard to swallow for some people. if you get a colony from another hobbyist most times for free how do you set market value? we set it by a certain margin. every one is allowed to sell it for what ever they want..it's fine really...i am in no way disputing that.

at least there is a reason behind why a LFS would be more than an e-tailer on dry goods. i missed the reason why these items (LE frags) are so expensive. if it's because they have been around for ten years and been proven a grower then there should be such a glut of that coral (esp. acros with amzing growth rates) that the price would reflect that. truth be told it is at least partly status. to say you have an LE so and so is for some people what the hobby is about, competition....we were speaking about this the other day about how some one wants to have something that no one else has. why would that be? competition.

i have much respect for the experts (matter of fact i finally get to meet J. Sprung here real soon and can not wait as he is the person that sparked my interest and now all consuming passion in this hobby. wow that sounds a little stalker-ish...scary. some one better warn him.lol) and every body can spend and sell for whatever they want...for some people it is a little funky to swallow. both sides have valid points...i do not see the trend moving in any direction than forward either so i say go for it. want one? get one. in a few years they will be every where (hopefully).

the one neat aspect is that this does relieve some of the collection stress from the reefs. we are very concerned about that and have and will again boycott a supplier who can not refrain from shipping undesirable corals. the collector (the native person at the location of collection) believe it or not has very limited knoweledge of this industry (even less of the hobby) and they are the ones who should educated so that flower pots are not shipped.

moorish idols collected from certain places have a fantastic survival rate these days (more so than a lot of other fish imported on a regular basis).

[mummra100769]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
I'd bet all my LE's for all of yours that if you asked Veron to ID one of our corals to species level [esp Acropora] - he'd laugh wildly.

Sure, folks in the hobby might claim to ID corals - just don't mix the ocean-scientists in that bunch, visual ID IME is not something they practice.

i know that i have a hard time pin pointed the exact species and am surprised when some one comes in and says that they can.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by mummra100769
goofy names are fine (i like the approach zoa id took on this subject). $80.00 an inch is a little hard to swallow for some people. if you get a colony from another hobbyist most times for free how do you set market value? we set it by a certain margin. every one is allowed to sell it for what ever they want..it's fine really...i am in no way disputing that.

It's tough for some hobbyists to swallow, but not all. What gets me is all the negative conotations that come up from people whenever Tyree, LE is mentioned. Some people are poor at making friends, have no access to nice LFS, and others can't have visitors due to career choice. Not everyone has the ability to hunt around or trade for really nice looking coral, so this is a good deal for them. We shouldn't knock that. BTW, if you really don't wish to wait, get it from another source like Atlantis.

Besides, Steve isn't marketing easy to keep corals at Petco. Most hobbyists will never learn who Steve Tyree is because he doesn't aggressively advertise.

at least there is a reason behind why a LFS would be more than an e-tailer on dry goods. i missed the reason why these items (LE frags) are so expensive. if it's because they have been around for ten years and been proven a grower then there should be such a glut of that coral (esp. acros with amzing growth rates) that the price would reflect that. truth be told it is at least partly status.

Ask a farmer why. Steve is a member of RC. Shoot him an email. Ask him why is it so expensive. Oh, and not all corals are fast growers, Oregon Tort comes to mind. Most people who home farm corals barely get a tax write off on their P,G&E. Most farmers have to make a living doing something else. I know one farmer based in LA that had a $1,000 SCE electric bill last month. and he only had 600g (if that of system volume). He'd have to sell 12.5 $80 frags to recover his costs.

to say you have an LE so and so is for some people what the hobby is about, competition....we were speaking about this the other day about how some one wants to have something that no one else has. why would that be? competition.

For some hobbyist, it's competition. There's nothing wrong with that. If it bothers you, you should ask yourself why. the stuff grows, and sooner or later you should be able to attain one. If not, then no biggie either. For a commercial entity, competition is a way of life.

Some people like like famous corals. Some people like AKC registered dogs. Should we knock them too? Should we belittle dog breeders who charge a lot for a purebred when the pound give them away for free?

the one neat aspect is that this does relieve some of the collection stress from the reefs. we are very concerned about that and have and will again boycott a supplier who can not refrain from shipping undesirable corals. the collector (the native person at the location of collection) believe it or not has very limited knoweledge of this industry (even less of the hobby) and they are the ones who should educated so that flower pots are not shipped.

Yeah, but the bottom line is that home farming has almost no impact, and there is little in transit death.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by MiddletonMark
I'd bet all my LE's for all of yours that if you asked Veron to ID one of our corals to species level [esp Acropora] - he'd laugh wildly.

Sure, folks in the hobby might claim to ID corals - just don't mix the ocean-scientists in that bunch, visual ID IME is not something they practice.

I said only recently had hobbyists started classifying acropora. I didn't say they were getting it right.

Still hobbyists are starting to affix psuedo-scientific based class standards on coral. Blue milleopra is a much better description than blue hairy acro.

[kozmo02]

Originally posted by tacocat
Actually, that's not true.
http://www.reeffarmers.com/limitedmo...nasteriata.htm

lol.....ok besides that one......

i forgot about that guy, i probably have a few others actually, but i can say they all came from trades and if i remember right, no money was involved in getting them

[mummra100769]

funny that you mention AKC as my dog will be AKC soon. but to answer your question...yes that is the same thing and just as kooky. mixed breeds seem in general to be better dogs over all (just my opinion).

Hector you make a good debator (maybe even a master.lol) next time you are in i want to talk to you about it.

[NorthernCF]

I know one farmer based in LA that had a $1,000 SCE electric bill last month.
...

Yeah, but the bottom line is that home farming has almost no impact, and there is little in transit death. [/B]

I farm too, so I have sympathy. But, let me point out the incongruity here.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by mummra100769
funny that you mention AKC as my dog will be AKC soon. but to answer your question...yes that is the same thing and just as kooky. mixed breeds seem in general to be better dogs over all (just my opinion).

Hector you make a good debator (maybe even a master.lol) next time you are in i want to talk to you about it.

I prefer pure bred dogs because they typically have more predictable behavior patterns, and their potential health problems are easier to address.

[tacocat]

Originally posted by NorthernCF
I farm too, so I have sympathy. But, let me point out the incongruity here.

Are you referring to the fact that the energy consumption having a negative impact?

If so, most reefers (farmers) are starting to become more energy conscious. Tanks are now being designed for maximum light and energy efficiency. Skimmer companies like H&S are being geared towards lower energy consumption. Lighting companies (PFO for example www.solarisled.com ) are starting to sell LED based lighting systems.

Reef collection stations and mariculture operations are energy hogs too. The only thing they get for free is the sunlight (Although Dave Botwin grew his frags outside too). The extra distance they have to ship and animal death cut into that. Stations still need diesel boats and water pumps to operate effectively.

I saw Brian Chow's pictures of Eddie's station in Tonga. The place looked like a DFG trout hatchery. His clams and some corals were being grown in similar holding pens.

[DarkXerox]

Originally posted by tacocat
I prefer pure bred dogs because they typically have more predictable behavior patterns, and their potential health problems are easier to address.

Exactly, this is the single reason that I give to people when I say that I buy mariculture/captive propagated whenever I can. You know what the potential is of the animal, what problems it can have, where it needs to be placed for success, and you know the lineage so you can ask those previous people when you have issues. Plus it minimizes the impact on wild reefs.

Captive propagation costs more for the reasons you gave (wild colonies are collected with the only cost going to paying low paid collectors, and shipping) with electricity and rent being so high in California. When you buy from Tyree or any other aquarist, you know the animal is going to have a higher survival rate. Think of that extra cost to be a kind of insurance.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by tacocat

I saw Brian Chow's pictures of Eddie's station in Tonga. The place looked like a DFG trout hatchery. His clams and some corals were being grown in similar holding pens.

Yup, but that million dollar facility was in place, and basicly running, when Eddie found it Had he had to build it, he would be out of money. The land based portion, is leased from the Queen, and is their version of DWG trout hatchery (clam hatchery). The shipping/holding facility was also in place, and was built by the Japanesse for another failled project

[tacocat]

Originally posted by GreshamH
Yup, but that million dollar facility was in place, and basicly running, when Eddie found it Had he had to build it, he would be out of money. The land based portion, is leased from the Queen, and is their version of DWG trout hatchery (clam hatchery). The shipping/holding facility was also in place, and was built by the Japanesse for another failled project

Gresham, that explains a lot. It is a cool facility and I wish Brian still had his pics up. It would be neat to see it in person. He has been getting some great looking stuff into the US.

BTW, I finally tried Arcti-Pods, and they ROCK. I regret not getting the super big gulp bottle from you at the BA-CFM show.

[GreshamH]

http://www.stickycricket.com/reefstewards/

[wentreefgirl]

That is so cool.

[mjdlonghorn]

I was the one who posted the original topic. I have experience with fish aquariums, but not with coral. I was interested in why so many people spend so much energy talking about LE coral.

I have since decided that this steve tyree guy is a con and this whole Limited edition thing is a SHAKEDOWN.

Some people say that his corals are worht it because they dont have to wonder about which corals are spectacular and which are just average. This doesnt make sense, you mean you have to have someone tell you which corals are special?

I have been doing some digging and decided to buy my corals from places like reefermadness. The prices are cheaper and you actually get an entire colony not just a frag. Plus you get the corals sent overnight, not your name placed on some stupid waitlist.

I will soon be starting my own business on ebay selling MJD Limited Edition "electric brown" zoos. I am sure some sucker will buy them.

[mjdlonghorn]

I was the one who posted the original topic. I have experience with fish aquariums, but not with coral. I was interested in why so many people spend so much energy talking about LE coral.

I have since decided that this steve tyree guy is a con and this whole Limited edition thing is a SHAKEDOWN.

Some people say that his corals are worht it because they dont have to wonder about which corals are spectacular and which are just average. This doesnt make sense, you mean you have to have someone tell you which corals are special?

I have been doing some digging and decided to buy my corals from places like reefermadness. The prices are cheaper and you actually get an entire colony not just a frag. Plus you get the corals sent overnight, not your name placed on some stupid waitlist.

I will soon be starting my own business on ebay selling MJD Limited Edition "electric brown" zoos. I am sure some sucker will buy them.