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#26
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If you really want to know how it started, there's an easy way to find out. Do a search for "Acanthastrea" here on RC and specify the timing. "From the Beginning"
It will take you back a few years, but start there and read those threads.
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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." |
#27
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As I mentioned above, we have very different views of what has transpired in the acan market over the last few years. Your notion of supply and demand thus neglects to mention one of its primary tenets - fair market price. This fair market price is one determined by the MARKET through truthful advertising of a legal product. A truly efficient market results in a fair market price. Do you believe that markets can't be manipulated? Enron is a recent and large example of market manipulation. If a market of that scale can be manipulated, exactly how hard would it be to artificially drive up the price of acans? You also choose to call any view other than supply and demand a conspiracy theory - an unfortunate label that only deflects away from reasonable discourse. How believable is the view that all businessmen are honest or that some people wouldn't do whatever they could to make as much profit off of a product as possible? The term 'rare' is not the same as uncommon in the US. The majority of ebay auctions continue to use rare in their descriptions. If rare only means that you haven't seen it before, what is the value of the term? Call it what you might, I call it misleading marketing hype. In this thread, we even see 'rare' color morph. Last August, Calfo posted the following: "I personally have yet to see any of the big LA wholesalers offer any Acan for more than $69. And that was for an XXL with easily $30 or more in actual freight (water/weight) charge built into it. What the third, fourth or fifth reseller does to prices is beside this point. As for the price-fixing... again (as per article and other posts), I have personally seen shared IMs, PMs and e-mails detailing clear price fixing and collusion between some very notable RC traders. I'm surprised this surprises you of all people in particular. A number of industry consultants and advisers have also been contacted in the last year by Federal authorities re: poached scleractinia. I for one have seen photographs of corals in shipments secured by current and former (banned) RC Acan collectors/sellers, among other people. The issue is real, if you can take my word for it." You participated in that thread and did not question him about price fixing. Apparently, you accepted that possibility then. So, I am curious as to why you are now so certain that it's all 'supply and demand.' I would also like to point out that none of this should, in any way, be construed as a criticism of anyone that has purchased acans. I like and own acans. Everyone has the right to purchase whatever they want. If you have the money and want to purchase a truly rare coral, go for it (although, if its truly rare you should probably do some penance time in the Responsible Reefkeeping Forum ) Bill |
#28
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Wow, That's a lot of stuff to address. I'll start with this. Quote:
That leads into your next question about how hard it would be to artificially drive up the price of Acans. In my opinion, the prices of Acanthastrea lordhowensis type corals was not manipulated. Here's my story. In late 2002 a friend had asked me to try and sell some of his corals. He wasn't sure what it was exactly, but thought it was either Acanthastrea or Micromussa. It was a coral that he had grown out from frags over the course of a few years. As the coral grew into a colony, he broke it up to make more of them. I had gotten a piece of this coral from him in late 2001. But anyway, I had asked him how much he would like to sell frags of it for. He replied that they (he had two color morphs) were the only ones he'd ever come across. He said, "50.00 per polyp. They grow pretty fast." I thought that was kind of high, but I said OK and that I would try to sell them on Reef Central for him. This guy did not own a computer, and still doesn't. It didn't take long to sell the 3 or 4 frags he had made. They went to a few guys in the Virginia/Maryland area. My friend was inspired to make more frags, and in early February, 2003 I posted a thread in the selling forum to sell more of his frags. I also heard back from one of the guys that purchased a couple of the first batch of frags, with reports of even greater growth when the corals are fed meaty foods. Here's the link http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=310301 If you do a search on Reef Central for Acanthastrea, and start at the beginning, you won't find many people selling frags of this type of coral. With a non existent market for them, they sold for a premium price. There were none for sale on E-tailers sites calling them rare, or on Ebay, yet one variety sold out in a couple weeks. Do you think this was a manipulated sale of these corals? That's all I have time for right now. I'll reply to some of your other questions later tonight. I'm also curious about the title you gave yourself as Newbie. To know as much as you do about me, and the old threads I've posted on, you must have been around longer than your info leads us to believe. You almost have an "Anthony Calfo" sound to you. Most likely it's just your views that you have in common.
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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." |
#29
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Comments inline:
"I'm also curious about the title you gave yourself as Newbie." I will always consider myself a newbie in this hobby. I suppose I might be a 'somewhat experienced newbie' and someday I might be an 'experienced newbie' but there is too much to learn to ever call myself anything else. "To know as much as you do about me, and the old threads I've posted on, you must have been around longer than your info leads us to believe." Actually, this comes about because I have followed your advice and researched and read most of the old threads. Be careful, this almost sounds like one of those conspiracy folks. "You almost have an "Anthony Calfo" sound to you." Why is it that I get the feeling that this wasn't intended as a compliment? I mentioned several posts ago that you and I are unlikely to change our views. I got involved because people were tossing around terms like 'rare' and 'supply and demand.' As previously stated, true supply and demand economics presupposes an efficient market, which requires truthful advertising. How can one say that a coral is rare or is a rare color morph? In the case of acan lords I don't believe that one can even begin to think about such terms without extensive dive time off Lord Howe Island. (I won't even comment on the absurdity of calling something produced by nature a 'limited edition' or anthropomorphising corals with names such as 'Bill's Nuclear acan') If someone wants to purchase ANY coral that is called 'rare' or one that is given a name, that's fine as long as they fully understand that some/most of the purchase price is paying for the associated marketing hype. My hope is that every coral purchase is made simply because the buyer truly appreciates the coral rather than any hype. Bill |
#30
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Actually, it was a compliment. I consider Anthony a very knowledgeable person in the industry, and though my views my be different from his, I respect him very much as a Reef keeper and a person. Your responses have a particular ring to them, much like Anthony's did. In no way was it an insult. Hopefully no hard feelings.
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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." |
#31
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Randy,
No insult taken. I hope all of our posts have been taken as a respectful disagreement - I know that's how I have viewed your posts. Although we disagree about what may or may have not transpired in the acan market, I suspect that we very much agree on the goal of minimizing marketing hype and having all coral purchases made out of a deep appreciation for the involved coral. Bill |
#32
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i know this is kinda off topic but what happened to calfo. havent seen him posting here any lately.
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#33
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Peace, Chip |
#34
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obviously not paying too much attention lol. didnt that forum used to be all things salty with anthony calfo
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#35
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I don't pretend to know what happened early in the acan market. From my point of view, 2-3 people managed to get some amazing connections and got some very difficult to find colors into the US. People got envious and they kept secret. There is nothing we can do but speculate as to what happened. I still think the acan craze was a very good thing for reefkeeping. It put lps on the map, brought in many cool corals and fostered widespread propagation.
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin |
#36
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__________________
"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." |
#37
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thanks randy. all i know about it is he has completely left the site and did it by choice. as to why or if he plans to return......im clueless.
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#38
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Here are two of mine, both under $30 AUD each. Duncanopsammia Acan. Lord. Cheers
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"Natural does not imply ideal; only acceptable or tolerable." Photos of my "Blau Arborescent Dschungel Riff" via the red house. |
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