Mangrove set up

[graveyardworm]

I am currently thinking about adding a mangrove tank to my current set up. I've read not to put them in glass or acrylic, but I would like to be able to see whats going on under the water and maybe set this up as a biotope with some appropriate fish and inverts. With the glass I can see the possibility of roots making teir way through the silicone, but with acrylic? How deep of a sand bed would be required and how deep should the water be. As far as lighting would the LOA PC 6500k outdoor fixtures be sufficient? I just noticed at HD that there is a new one out, and it's 100 watts as opposed to the 65 watt fixtures that first became popular.

Should I have any concernes with having this plumbed in with a mixed reef, seagrass/lagoon and fuge with macro. Aside from having to dose nutrients?

[graveyardworm]

Lookee what I just found an article written by Anthony Calfo about mangroves. Excellent information here. With all the interest in mangroves that thing should be stickied here somehow.

[tekknoschtev]

Wow, you are looking into nearly the identical setup I am. I havent found too much information but I intend on reading that article soon.

I dont know about glass or acylic tanks, I know that for my application, a rubbermaid-like tank is going to be better, but thats due to costs. Its going on my prop system for now, and I hope to have quite a few mangroves growing, and will be using the LOA 65W fixture. Does the new bulb work in the old fixture, or does a new fixture (ie. new ballast) need to be purchased for it to work. I'd imagine a new fixture all together.

I asked about this in a local forum, and I was shown examples of people growing them floating in a styrofoam rack, no sand bed. They've had the mangroves growing incredibly for the last few years. I'm going to be using at least a 5" sand bed (in an 8" deep tank running at about 7" total depth) and lighting it with the LOA 65W fixture.

I think it'd be awesome to have a few fish and inverts in there to create the biotope look, and if it works out well for what I'm doing I might try some shrimp in there (or something with a very low flight risk ).

[graveyardworm]

I've been debating alot about what size tank, what type of tank, glass acrylic or stock tank, how many mangroves, what critters to put in there if any, and the list goes on. Just cant seem to make up my mind. I've read every mangrove thread back to 2004. People have warned of busted tanks, but I havent found anyone who experienced it. In the link Anthony discusses getting the roots to grow down and suspend the tree I'll definately be doin that.

Here's a link to a new thread discussing the importance of mangroves in the wild, I wonder if the same benefits would apply to our closed systems making them more valuable than just for nutrient export.

Havent seen anything about a new vs. old LOA fixture other than I did notice HD has a 100 watt version now.

Havent found to much info regarding optimum sand depth, or how much sand for each mangrove, or how much flow.

[tekknoschtev]

Yeah, I've searched through the Macroalgae forum looking for mangrove info, and a lot of it seems as if there is a big variance in the setups. Some people have a huge DSB (12-14") and others, like the guy I mentioned, have no sand at all.

I'm going to start a group buy for mangroves locally, and I intend on having at least 25 in a 36x24x8 tub, maybe more if I can fit them in there.

[graveyardworm]

Just found the holy grail of links:

Mangroves in Reef Aquaria by Daniel Knop

Mangroves in the Marine Aquarium by Anthony Calfo on WetWebMedia (different than above link)

A Guide to the Ecology and Care of Mangroves by Julian Sprung

and

http://www.sms.si.edu/irlspec/Rhizop...e%20halophytes

http://jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu/fiel...Rhizophor.html

[The_Nexis_One]

I have my mangroves in a glass tank (my 40g refug). The problem with the roots is not that they will infiltrate the silicon, but rather that the plant produces very strong roots. As the plant grows, and the roots grow, they will eventually put pressure against the glass, and in doing so - they will eventually crack the glass an 'break out'... I've had my main mangrove for 3 years now (if memory serves) and while it's roots are against the tank glass in at least 2 locations, I physically tug on the plant at least once a week (stop laughing - I'm serious ) to make sure that the roots don't bind agains the glass. The important thing to rmember is that the plants are grown in a 'fluidized bed' of sorts since our DSB's are saturated with water. This means that while I will eventually have to replant or at least dig up and root prune the main mangrove, I can get away with 'giggling it' to fluidize the sand directly around the root a few times a month; in doing so, relieve any pressure that the sand had exerted on the glass from the growing root.

Blah blah blah - the point is, glass/acrylic... it doesn't matter much, these plants have very strong roots and will need special attention. I figure that if I have to uproot the thing once every 5 years and root prune it (as I did my Bonsai every year) so be it...

I can see where if someone planted 20 or so of these plants in a 30gal tank, it would be very hard to maintain safe root growth - but for those of use who are growing them for astetics, 1, 2, 3, 4, or even 5 plants will be very managable IMHO/IME grown in a glass tank.

As for their usefulness, IMHO, they are for show only. I've seen no positive/negative effect from having them in my system (contrary to Macro growth).

Oh, and I should add that until the last 3 months - my mangroves have been under 2 LOA 65w fixtures and grow like crazy. The 'always' had 3-7 buds at any given time. I religiously bud pruned the new leaves to maintain the shape I was looking for (otherwise, they tend to get straggly. I currently have mine under 2, 2 bulb, track style lights with 55w flood style grow bulbs in them (actually one is a 6500K CF - but that's only to bleach the visual color so it doesn't look so yellow). - - the mangroves are still growing strong. I'm not sure how much of that is due to the Iron dosing, but it appears to have made a difference.

Best of luck,
John.

[tekknoschtev]

Thanks for the experience John, its always good to get first hand experiences.

Also good to hear that I wont need to upgrade my fuge lighting in order to keep these. I plan on upgrading to something like what you have with the track lighting though.

[graveyardworm]

Thanks John, would you mind answering a few questions?

How deep is the sand in the 40g fuge?
How deep is the water the mangrove is in?
How many plants?
Did you train it to have the arched roots or is it stuck directly in the substrate?
What kind of substrate?

and lastly if you can we need pictures!

[The_Nexis_One]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
Thanks John, would you mind answering a few questions?

Ha.. I'd be insulted if you didn't ask

How deep is the sand in the 40g fuge?

Well... it's changed with time - at the point that I started the Mangrove, it was 3" (this is what I used to strip the NO3 from my 125g mixed reef). Now, it's coming up on 5".... my goal is between 5" and 6" but I've got to install my "Eel maze" before I bother adding more sand. ... I was hoping to not have to admit that I'm putting in an "Eel maze" .... but with much shame, I'll explain I've got a ~23" Snowflake who loves to dig... and in doing so - some mornings Macro's are uprooted and/or covered, LR has moved/fallen and he peaks out from under different rocks with sand still spilling off of his head with almost a smile on his face. So.... before I can go with Seagrasses, I need to stop/limit his nightly/weekly digging as it will damage the rhizomes of the Thallasia and potentially kill the plant. I've built and have been waiting to install a 2" PVC maze of elbows & "Y" fittings that will be buried completely in the sand with only the 5 outlets exposed. My hope is that he'll take to this structure and confine his 'den clearing habits' to it as well. Adding this structure alone will raise the sand depth to 6" if my estimations are correct. -- ok... now you can laugh

How deep is the water the mangrove is in?

The tank is a 40g, but I have it partitioned with an internal overflow. The 'Predatory refugium' is actually only ~27gal. This section has ~8" to 9" of water above the sand bed. The return and the overflow are at the same end of the tanks so it creates a nice smooth flow across the front on it's way back to the overflow.

How many plants?

Right now, only 2. I have grown several, but always give them away. My goal is to maintain 3 (was planning on 5, but 3 with vascular plants will be better), but my latest pod rooted, but shriveled before it popped it's top with leaves. As I said previously - I would limit the number you put in glass/acrylic. While they look very cool, I haven't seen any benefit from mine (other than astetics), but I've always kept a low number of them, so it may be a quantity issue.

Did you train it to have the arched roots or is it stuck directly in the substrate?

Yes, I rooted them (all came without roots or had a couple small roots of <1") while suspended in the refugium. As the roots grew, I would either set them on LR or on sand in a jar (still suspended from above) to encourage the roots to grow. This seems to make a difference in root production. Once the root structure gets large/long enough that I can put the roots in the DSB while keeping the leaves out of the water, I do so. As the roots start to grow down into the DSB, I gently pull them back out - effectively raising the plant .5" each time and setting it back on the surface of the DSB until I've reached the point where I want the plant to stay. Once stable, they will really take off and start to drop some large aerial roots from around the old pod. My largest dropped a new 1/2" dia. root after the move (presumably from the limited damage it sustained from my removing 2/3 of the DSB for transport - some of it's roots had roamed into the parts that were removed). A few times a month, I'll tug on the plant to reduce any pressure between the plant and the glass (bottom or side), which doesn't relaly increase it's height, but may stimulate root growth, can't really tell.

What kind of substrate?

Southdown.

and lastly if you can we need pictures!

:-( I don't have any pics since my camera was stolen last year... I've been hoping to buy a new, nice, High MPixel camera, but have had other things that needed the money (mainly SCCA Car parts & IDPA supplies darn conflicting hobbies...)

hrmm... lemme see if I can dig up some of my old pics and or movies.
John.

[graveyardworm]

Thanks again, bummer on the camera. I think I've got my set up pretty well figured out atleast in my head. I have a 5 gal acrylic small critter container I made a 2 x 7 x 7 box out of acrylic and siliconed it to the back inside I'm going to put bio balls in there and thats where the water will come into it ( coming down by gravity from another tank). I drilled a hole in the bottom for a 3/4 inch bulkhead so my drain out will come straight up from the bottom through the sand. I'm going to build a rack which extends out over my 100g seagrass lagoon so the water will drain directly into that. That whole thing probably doesnt do any good for a visual I'll post pics later when I get alittle time. I was thinking 1 maybe 2 mangroves. Just for aesthetics mostly and to have something else to fascinate me.

Oh yeah, the sand will be about 4" deep and the water about 3". The tank is eggshaped and its about 16" long by 10" wide.

[graveyardworm]

Here's a pic of the catastrophy which the new tank will be replacing. My sad attempt at eliminating micro bubbles in the display from the two drains coming into it. Which did work BTW.



The drain on the right will go into the mangrove tank, and the drain on the left will still go into the seagrass tank, but will be hopefully look alot better when done.

[The_Nexis_One]

OK.. I just got done sticking some old pix in my gallery.... MAN O MAN do I need to get a camera!...

I was comparing the pictures against current growth/system... I can't believe the amount of growth that's happened in the last 6 months on my mangrove and how the refugium has cleared up since I started dosing Iron and growing Caulerpa. I guess I didn't realize it since I look at it every day (about a hundred times).

This is a pic of the main mangrove after it was finally tall enough to 'not' be suspended and it's roots had taken hold in the DSB (12/09/02)




Here is 7 days growth on that new plant (12/16/02):




Here is the roots on the main mangrove about 5 months ago




Here is a picture of the last two propagules rooting in a glass jar sitting on my LR.




This is a pic of the mangrove (and two propagules at bottom) about 5 months ago.




Here's a pic of the new aerial drop root that popped out about a week after the move and root disruption (9/30/05)



The head on the main mangrove is at least 90% more dense if not more... gotta get a camera (or borrow one).

The drop root is about 6" long and 1/2" in diameter now. I had damaged it accidentally while feeding the eel. I was using reef tongs to present the food because the eel had gotten excited and wouldn't come down to the end of the tank I was feeding from. The reef tong bumped the end of the new root and the small black tip fell off. This small black tip is apperantly necessary and where cell generation takes place (assumption). The root stopped growing for several months and then began growing again from the 'side' of that roots tip. The new root had a black tip and has continued to grow nicely. Now I have a 4.5" root with a 1.5" root coming off at a 45* angle. It's filling in nicely and shouldn't be too noticable as it matures/swells.

Additionally, I think I just sold myself on buying my next propagules already rooted and w/ leaves. I didn't realize that I'd been messing around with these new propagules for almost 5 months now and JUST got my first set of leaves on the one that survived... and it's still suspended....

Hopefully I can get some current pics in the next week... gotta find someone with a camera

John.

[graveyardworm]

Decided it's too cold and windy to go put on steel roof so I've got a picture of the tank.



Since the main purpose of the bioball compartment is to eliminate bubbles I might drill a hole towards the bottom and run a pipe up so the water has to exit the bottom.
Judging by the size and growth of yours do you think I could get away with more than one in this tank? and if I only go with one how long do you think before I have root issues? A year maybe two, or more?

In the shot of the whole tree its about 3 years old how large would you estimate the root system is? From the articles it indicates a shallow root system. So I guess I'm lookig for sq. inches or sq. feet.

[The_Nexis_One]

Well. it's a little hard to tell how big that container is, but I bet since it's a cast acrylic vessel, you'd not have much trouble with roots. IMHO, I bet you could put 3 in there, or maintain 1 to 2 mature specimens of 3-5 years.

The root system on mine is ~10"x10"x"3" .. While I was removing the DSB for transport, I just kept scooping it out until I ran into roots, they didn't go all the way to the back glass and where about that size (with the exception of a couple that ended up damaged by scooping or by me breaking them off since they were very long.

If you did a 5" or 6" DSB, I bet the roots would expand down a bit to allow more than 1 plant. Even if you did 2 plants, or three for that matter, you could just replant them in ~4 years and prune some roots or put them in a larger container. (as is my plan if/when they get too big).

John.

[graveyardworm]

The container is just over 1 sq. ft. of sand surface. So I guess I could start with 2 and within three years move to a larger container. Once its all set up I'll post some pics.

[tekknoschtev]

Sounds cool. Is this tank going to be stand alone or plumbed into a larger system? Its a very uniquely shaped tank, and I think it'd look pretty cool when it grows in.

[graveyardworm]

I'm going to have it plumbed into a larger system.

[dandy7200]

The_Nexis_One, If you borrow that camera please post a pic of that maze! I have the exact same problem with my snowflake and that sounds like a great solution,

[graveyardworm]

I dont think you would have to make something as intricate as a maze, an LFS I visit just throws in sections of PVC on the sand and the eels are happy with that. A maze under the sand might also become a detritus trap (or fill with sand) and raise nitrates, given that snowflakes are pretty messy eaters. Unless of course your in this forum cause you have macros or other plants in which case the excess nutrients might be welcome.

A U shape on top of the sand under the LR might be more practical and easier to keep clean. You could integrate it into the rockwork with an opening higher in the rock work and one down by the sand.

[The_Nexis_One]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
I dont think you would have to make something as intricate as a maze, an LFS I visit just throws in sections of PVC on the sand and the eels are happy with that. A maze under the sand might also become a detritus trap (or fill with sand) and raise nitrates, given that snowflakes are pretty messy eaters. Unless of course your in this forum cause you have macros or other plants in which case the excess nutrients might be welcome.

A U shape on top of the sand under the LR might be more practical and easier to keep clean. You could integrate it into the rockwork with an opening higher in the rock work and one down by the sand.

True, I was a little weary of using this PVC setup. But, I've done a couple of things that I think will aleviate most of my concerns (which you've touched on, well done ).

1) any PVC tube/structure will work, even just a 12" section of 2": .... but, I'm all about making my inhabitants 'more than survive'. I built this structure (which really isn't a "maze" as much as a primarily straight run with lots of elbows w/ 5 exits.) to allow the Eel some place to hide, and someplace to explore a bit more than a single straight tube. I've thought long and hard about the eel... he has definite personality, and seems to feel fear, he recognizes me vs. others who approach the tank, etc. It only makes sense that he feels some level of enjoyment (I know - I'm getting out to that frayed end of logic here). However, some Octipus keepers provide, loops/balls/colored rods, etc for them to play with as they can get bored which tends to lead to escape - some even return after playing/exploring a bit... So, if I'm going to keep this specimen in a smaller tank (27g is much smaller than I would like) I wanted him to be entertained as much as possible. So, I built something that I thought would fill the need to keep him sufficiantly entertained AND keep him from rearranging my LR and burying my macros by digging.

2) Keeping it clean, I have observed that the eel keeps his surface runs/dens clean by actively clearing them with a swimming like motion. This blasts sand/water out with a healthy amount of current. This activity alone will keep fresh water in the structure and detritus and infiltrated sand out. HOWEVER, I also have made a couple more additions.... just in case. I have drilled and tapped a vent line in the top middle of the structure that will connect, by buried vinyl tubing, to the overflow. This should provide a gentle draw from the structure to maintain at least 'good water' at all times. Additionally, I've scuffed the interior bottom portion of the PVC to allow hermits to get down inside, clean, and get back out. The eel and the hermits get along fine as it is - so no concern there. Worse case, I could hook a powerhead up to the structures drain line and 'back flush' it in the event that a section fills with sand (without the eel in their or throttle it back and just provide a positive flow of water into it.

It would be much easier to build this into the LR structure, and much easier to clean/move/monitor, etc. But by burying this, I will free up the DSB surface for seagrass/macro's. I'll be pulling most of the LR out of the display after this is in the DSB.

As for a Nitrate factory, it may be, but it shouldn't be anymore than his current runs, dens, etc... and if it does somehow start producing NO3 Lucky me! that's less I'll have to dose

My MAIN concern about this structure, and why it's not already in the tank as I haven't gotten over this one..... I'm affraid I'll never see the eel again! LOL as it is now, he weaves in and out of the LR so at least I can check him for sores/abrasions/problems as he's rooting around digging up the LR. Once this is in place, the sand/LR/Macro/Seagrass will hopefully be safe, but I'll probably only get to see his head from then on....

He currently has a vase/urn that he considers home... it still amazes me how a ~23" Moray can fit into a 5"x4" container and still breath... But that's the first place he heads after eating and where he stays most of the day (night is when the little devil starts excavating).



John.

[graveyardworm]

Sounds like you thought of everything even little grabways for the hermits I had a snowflake for alittle while until it decide to explore the suction tube of a hang filter poor guy. Have you tried feeding it from your hand that can be fun until it decides to bite more than the food. They dont seem to be able to see very well and use there nose mostly, mine would just grab at everything until it found what it was looking for.

Oh yeah this thread was about mangroves I just finished setting up that little tankpics are coming.

[tekknoschtev]

Its not pretty but thats what I'm planning on using for growing my mangroves. I'm home for spring break, so I have some time to work on the structure to hold these, and connect them to the sump, so I'll update once things get rolling.

[dandy7200]

Jim,
You must get a camera! I am actually getting ready to move from a 29g to a 54g because "slim" is getting pretty big. I see your dillema with not being able to see your friend. Mine has a great personality too and will swim around the tank looking for me as soon as he hears the front door open at night (meal time). A big play cave would be a great addition for him as of right now he calls a 30# live rock home and I have other plans for that particural rock. Your idea seems very well thought out.
Graveyardworm, sorry to get off topic, and no I don't have macro yet but am planning on incorperating it into the new tank sump so I am in here doing research
Dan

[dandy7200]

The_Nexis_One,
How about starting a new thread to this project over at DIY so I don't have to hijack