CO2 Magic!

[Samala]

John, I'm curious, what do they say? Are they open to the idea or do they think you're crazy, or.. ? Cause when I go in they dont argue with the girl who can grow 2 lbs of Caulerpa in a week from a 10 gallon. Not that thats a big feat, but they seem to think so when I bring it in for credit. I'm just curious as to how this is being received - both the concept of marine planteds as well as nutrient dosing in some cases - as an idea outside of this very small community here on RC.

>Sarah

[piercho]

Sarah: keep reporting those kinds of observations. I find it very encouraging that you were apparently able to drive your tank into a P-limited condition.

I was composing a long response about how a typical SPS reefer thinks nutrients must be managed ... and decided not to fan that flame. Lets just say most of them aren't wired to concieve nutrient dynamics they way you do.

Big change in my tank to today. The 2 biggest SPS, green slimer (Acropora) and Poc. damicornis got put out today, to make room for some arborescent gorgonians. I'm slowly moving toward tank # 2, and I'm seeing a big expanse of sand and grass dominating the aquascape. The gorgos add nice color and height contrast to the grass, IMO. I'm hoping the gorgos can be kept with the grass and do well - I'll soon see. No need for any sort of visible anchor for them exept a little stone to strap their holdfast to.

[The_Nexis_One]

Well... Both They know I'm crazy (Race cars, work on computers, shoot competative pistol, love to DIY/Tinker/experiment)... But with respect to Marine experimentation - I'm actually pretty lucky.

The LFS in Fayetteville is run by a planted FW guy. He's used to me coming in rambling on and on about current/fringe theories and experimentations, so he doesn't get really shocked much anymore. When I was talking to him about trying to find Iron to dose by itself (rather than in a combination solution for FW), he said "Iron??? Huh... for your refugium? yeah, sure, we have something that should work..." His employees on the otherhand

They used to want to argue or tell me how dangerous all 'that Internet info" is.... Until I started bringing in print outs of the conversations and some of Randy's articles back when I was getting into Kalk dosing and they hadn't played with it yet... Vinegar'ing the DI water before mixing Kalk must have seemed like some kind of Voodoo I tend to get stuck at the LFS's, if I try to sneak in, while they show me all the new goodies and toys they've gotten in and the things they are DIY'ing or thinking about doing. It's really nice (assuming I have time).

The other LFS we have in NWA is run by a much more accepting guy, actually. Exotic Tropicals in Rogers is an excellent Shop. The best I've been in through all my travels. James Tucker (the owner) does a great job of keeping up with current trends/research and even spends some time here (can't think of his screen name off hand). He's also a bit of a DIY'r so we discuss designs and theory at times as well. It's during our "shop talk" that passers by (both customers and emp's) cast odd stares and frequently stop to make sure they heard things correctly.

I've not had a chance to talk with James lately about the dosing of Nitrate, but when I purchased the Kents FW planted solution to dose Iron I got some strange looks and a "uh.. ok.. here ya go" ...

Then again, I'm lucky to be liked/respected enough at both shops that they call sparaticly to ask questions or inquire as to my opinion/experiance on some things...

So, to clarify my ramblings I think those that take the time to listen/read/research will understand and accept. Those that prefer to live by the way it's always been done are limited by that which has been built around them by their predicessors.

Northwest Arkansas is a suprisingly forward thinking and 'current' area. I grew up in Detroit and arrived here via southern AR and can attest to this area being very much unlike most other parts of the state/region.

John.

[3D-Reef]

Over the last 9 years I've gone through what John has so eloquently stated.They ask you all kinds of questions on how something works,or whats the best course of action to take.Then at the reef club meeting,they will say to other club members DON'T DO what he says "IT ONLY WORKS FOR HIM"...."water changes are the ONLY way to handle nutrients.
I've learned to not say something unless they have it wrong.

[Samala]

Very interesting guys. I like to fly under the radar at the LFS and only volunteer information if a conversation seems open to it. Being a lady in the hobby doesnt help sometimes I must say.

Piercho I think I would have enjoyed the SPS rant but its probably better we kept it off the board, lol. You absolutely must take shots of the tank when it gets resettled after the stock changes. Gorg's sound like a great addition.

The tank has not had any outbreaks of cyano, green glass algae, or other phosphate-related algaes since dosing. I was expecting, if it was going to happen, it would have responded by now. The grass seems to be perceptibly greener today, and growth resumed, as did the bubbling of course. Very interesting.

>Sarah

[The_Nexis_One]

So... Sarah... How's it going? I see. . . So, If I were to start dosing CO2, any idea of how much I should run?

I was finishing off a 2 liter of soda today and found myself staring at the empty bottle thinking.... hrmm... Plenty of DIY materials around... and yeast in the kitchen cabinet... I could have this up and running in about 10 minutes.... I caught myself about the time I was dreaming up a bubble counter attachmetn... I calmly set the empty bottle on the kitchen table and walked away

(notice that I couldn't bring myself to throw it away just yet )

Maybe I'll clean/recalibrate my Pinpoint pH today and DIY myself a Fe autodoser instead out of that 2-liter LOL.

John.

[billsreef]

Come on now John. A little bit of yeast, some water and sugar, and a little preservative free fruit juice to provide nutrients for the yeasties and you can have nice and very active CO2 reactor

This said by the guy with loads of brewers yeast, nutrients, bottles and fermenation locks who has yet to set up a reactor for the tank

[Shoestring Reefer]

Fruit juice? I've not heard of that before.

[billsreef]

The fruit juice has nutrients that the yeast needs, at least for a truly nice active culture of the stuff. Just sugar water will give some decent activity, but the yeast won't be at it's best.

[The_Nexis_One]

Having played around with making PGA in Highschool years ago (quite successfully since it ended up being a science fair project for me that was confiscated at the door LOL) - I can make the bubblies w/ No problem...

I can pipe it down into the return pump for the lagoon and it should have a good bit of bubble break-up and contact time while in route to the system (return line is ~8.5" long) but.....

I was poking around hoping to get some good details about how much to dose (bubble count estimations) and the "what to be concerned about" and "what not do to" as Sarah has been so great about providing in the past.

I've got the Eel to worry about along with three other fish and a few basic corals... so I'd rather ask my Q's up front instead of after things are cloudy and the Eel is very easy to take out and play with (dead ).

Thanks for the fruit juice idea though - I always used mashed fruits... the juice should be MUCH easier... What juice do you use? Would the different acidities affect the reaction (apple juice vs. orange vs. pineapple, etc.) ?

(BTW: PM or email me when you get some Thallasia in, still have to hold good on my promise of getting some from you.)

Thanks!
John.

[Samala]

Fruit juice eh? Never in all my travails with CO2 have I heard that before. Very interesting.

I'm dosing about 1 bubble / 10 seconds on average. That tends to keep the system within 8.1 - 8.2 pH and alkalinity holds stable at 3 meq or so. Travels through a powerhead that breaks up the bubbles pretty good.. in the freshwater crowd they're calling it 'misting' when you effectively do this. Idea is smaller bubbles, more surface area to dissolve the CO2 into the water.. or so I understand. If you used a bubble ladder you would be playing with much less fire.. so to speak, as it would probably not get so much CO2 into the system. I used one of those at first just to see if anything positive was going to happen.. and the first thing was pH stabilization.

I have been trying to think up a set of conditions when I think CO2 is warranted.. and all I can come up with is if you're having big pH swings through the photoperiod or the plants are driving down the alkalinity very quickly.. then CO2 might be a good idea. If you dont have carbon management issues then I dont know if its good to fix what isnt broken.. right?

Really, having carbon problems just tells you that you have lots of photosynthesis (and I would suppose growth) going on in the tank. Hard to say at what level of plants that occurs, it'll vary with each system.. at 30% of the sandbed planted I was having pH issues, without a lot of seagrass. I wouldn't even try to take the bed off of CO2 as it is now. For much larger systems.. I would plant everything, get it established and past the transplant period of stasis, and keep track of the alk/pH. When you start to have wild swings that you cant easily keep in line, then I'd try CO2.. first bubbling through a ladder at a slow rate with a small volume reactor (or just controlled through a pressurized setup) and eventually misting if you dont have any hiccups. As with everything in aquaria, go slow.

I should point out that not everyone is convinced that the plants will go after carbonate molecules and drive down alkalinity.. but I have a hard time explaining my missing alkalinity another way. (?) It would be great if more people could back up this observation from their own tanks.

CO2 dosing brings up a couple problems of course.. for instance how do we figure out how much CO2 we have in solution, and what is too much, too little, what level to target? In FW there are lovely calculators where you plug in alkalinity and pH and wham, CO2 content is revealed. Not sure that would work for us. I dunno...

Also.. in freshwater aquaria you are trying to not cause too much movement in the water because really high turnover, and exposure to lots of surface exchange, would move the system back to normal O2/CO2 levels. In marine aquaria we have lots of water movement, lots of turbulence and aeration (skimmers) and other fun mechanical things that will help move the water back to the normal balance. So, how do we assure that we are enriching the water for CO2.. and do we even want to? Would it be enough to simply aerate the water massively?

I havent done any side by side tests to know. I can say though that CO2 enrichment drives some really impressive growth that I have never seen when all the other conditions are basically the same. (Equipment, plants, skimmer aeration, etc.) But I wonder, if I were to inject plain air through the powerhead would I still get this great growth rate?

Warning signals.. besides dead things.. probably much like freshwater: acidic pH range of the water, gasping fish, maybe some fun precipitation events given saltwater's various constituents, but I'm not sure. Randy would know better.

So.. lots to think about.. as always. Hehe.

>Sarah

[graveyardworm]

I've been following this thread with some interest, but so far I've figured its not for me, CO2 is more for plants and would probably be harmful to corals, atleast this is what I've been led to believe. I think I understand some of the basics, CO2 is used by plants during photosynthesis, and when lights out its a byproduct of respiration. In a saltwater environment it (depresses ph, lowers ph?). Thats about as far as my knowledge goes. Please elaborate/correct me if you can. Now some questions.

1) Do you shut off the CO2 at night?
2) If ph remained stable during dosing, any guesses on how CO2 might affect coral. Coral contain algae which I would assume use CO2 during photosynthesis. Would you expect to see a change in color, or calcification.
3) Phosphate limitation was mentioned, I am guessing that zooxanthallae require some phosphate as well as macro for growth, although phosphate also limits calcification. Would PO4 limitation be better for coral growth. In a system which is fed daily do you think PO4 limitation would be possible?

I know I'll have more questions as this goes. I guess if somehow the whole process could be explained that would be great. Just trying to figure out what if any benefits a mixed lagoon might recieve with CO2 addition.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
1) Do you shut off the CO2 at night?

If you're using a CO2 tank, a solenoid valve can be used to turn it off. The solenoid valve can either be controlled by a timer, or a pH controller (similar to a calcium reactor).

[tekknoschtev]

Originally posted by Samala
Yeah I've been thinking about how to make CO2 a safe and still effective idea for those who have delicate fishes and inverts at stake in their tank.

I'm curious - if I were to do something along the lines of this with corals and other inverts in my tank, do you forsee a problem? Perhaps I'm interpreting that line incorrectly Wouldn't be the first time I misread something

I'm considering something similar to grow out some mcaros and other sea grasses in the fuge of my frag system, so that they can grow fast while I'm tending to them, and I dont have to worry about them taking forever to spread in the 150 back home, where they might not get the same attention.

[Samala]

1) Do you shut off the CO2 at night?

Yes, I cant believe I havent mentioned this anywhere. In the beginning I was not shutting it off at night but found that the pH was low in the morning.. 7.8 or so. I now shut off the powerhead that does the misting at night (timer) and pH stays about 8.1 through the night now. If it was hooked to an elaborate pressurized system, the solenoid would control on/off according to pH. Much more safe. Eventually what I'll do.

2) If ph remained stable during dosing, any guesses on how CO2 might affect coral. Coral contain algae which I would assume use CO2 during photosynthesis. Would you expect to see a change in color, or calcification.

Good question. I'm not a coral girl, never have been. The zooxanthellae may likely benefit from increased CO2 in the water and provide more nutrition to photosynthetic corals/inverts but that is conjecture. Browning out of corals, as I've seen mentioned here and there on RC, may or may not be an issue.

In a system which is fed daily do you think PO4 limitation would be possible?

I doubt it, unless you are quite understocked (rare) and do not feed much (even rarer). This is the first time I've gotten P limitation, and the tank went 9 days with no fish and no food introductions.. just C and N dosing (and micronutrients). No water changes with tap, so no P influx there either.

The points you brought up about coral calcification and how that might be impacted in a CO2 dosed environment are valid and crucial for figuring out if this is something worth pursuing for, as you said, mixed lagoons. I should note though that, after consideration, I dont think I'm really enriching the tank for CO2, just bringing it back down to near-normal levels, as the cardinal benefit has been keeping the pH at a normal level (and alkalinity remains at a normal level) which helps to continually provide the plants access to free CO2. More available, more growth it seems.

PS: keep asking questions. Feedback is always good and questions make me think critically about how beneficial an idea is, and how to apply it elsewhere.

>Sarah

[Samala]

Ah, Tekkno, I meant that I've been tangling with the idea of how to apply these kinds of results to culturing grass in systems that also maintain inverts/lots of fish. I dont really have any answers unfortunately at this time.

I'm not sure I understand what you'd like to do.. you have a fuge and you want to grow out macros/grass for later use in a 150 where you wont focus as much on their growth? Might be worthwhile to hash out the full plan for this little project of yours in your own thread so that I (and others who would know better) can help.

>Sarah

[3D-Reef]

Originally posted by graveyardworm
2) If ph remained stable during dosing, any guesses on how CO2 might affect coral. Coral contain algae which I would assume use CO2 during photosynthesis. Would you expect to see a change in color, or calcification.

If Saraha doesn't mind getting a little off subject I'll take a crack at it.
IMO Co2 is good for corals.Because,not only of the stability of the PH,but also the availabilty of free desolved carbon.
As we know in an aquarium Co2 can be used up by alge,macros,micros,grasses,and zooxanthellae,with high lighting.
So when the Co2 is used up then carbonates are converted and used instead.
In the case of corals, their zooxan's use the carbonates in which deprives the coral of the 1:1 ratio..(Ca/cabonates)and a saturation of Ca around the coral occurs.Slowing calcification.
A steady supply of Co2 will keep the zooxan's from depriving the coral from the 1:1 requirement.Thus better coral growth.
Clay

[graveyardworm]

The points you brought up about coral calcification and how that might be impacted in a CO2 dosed environment are valid and crucial for figuring out if this is something worth pursuing for, as you said, mixed lagoons. I should note though that, after consideration, I dont think I'm really enriching the tank for CO2, just bringing it back down to near-normal levels, as the cardinal benefit has been keeping the pH at a normal level (and alkalinity remains at a normal level) which helps to continually provide the plants access to free CO2. More available, more growth it seems.

This brings another question. Are there published CO2 #'s for NSW levels, and would co2 levels vary from one environment to another for instance from a wave pummeled reef crest to a more calm lagoon. Also is there an inexpensive way to monitor co2 levels in an aquarium, or are there more important parameters related to co2 like ph, and the actual co2 levels isnt all that important alone.

I tried searching the chemistry forum for anything co2 dosing and learned something new which was also touched on by 3D-Reef, and thats that in the absence of co2 algae will rely on carbonates for their carbon needs. I have noticed that since starting with macros in my mixed reef/lagoon setup my alkalinity has been consistently lower and it seems that I'm going to need to supplement it. Perhaps co2 dosing is the answer.

[3D-Reef]

Maybe I should rephrase that too.. a more normal growth compared to wild growth rather than "improved growth".A poor choice of words on My part.
Clay

[CELACANTHr]

Sarah, this is just absolutely amazing! The amount of growth in the pics is mind boggling! Truly awe inspiring!

But of course this topic brings some questions of my own.
What do you think would happen, if say the only seagrass/macro in there was turtle grass?

Would macro's be affected?

I am planning on setting up a 15 gallon in the near future, adn eventually I plan on making it into a nice florida keys seagrass flatt biotope, but seeing as I will be having alot of free time with summer coming up, I wanted to experiment around with the seagrasses. I was trying to figure out something to expirement with, and Co2, and turtlegrass seem like a good choice.
What do you think/suggest?

Once again the tank is just A-M-A-Z-I-N-G!!!

P.S. I am sorry to hear about the jawfish! Recently I haven't seen my jawfish at all, and I doubt that he jumped, and nothing in my tank makes me think he died in the tank (unfortunately I don't test alot, I usually wait for something to happen in my tank, and then I test...bad policy, but hasn't failed me so far LOL)... I am hoping he is just on one of his many "Lets scare CELA by hiding under this rock for three weeks" excursions.

[Samala]

Hey Cela! Long time no see.

Hmmmmmm. Turtle grass is my nemesis, it really is taking a long time to establish in my tank (and I have a few theories as to why). I think a turtle grass only tank would eventually benefit from CO2 (if you have whacky pH and eroding alkalinity levels) when it is established and actively growing. As it is now my turtle grass does not seem to be the nutrient (C, N, P or anything else) hog.. that honor goes to the small fast growing seagrasses and the macros.

I would try to persuade you to replicate my results with shoal grass, star grass and manatee grass first as these guys take so much less time to establish in the tank environment. That would be a huge contribution in itself. Or... setup an all macroalgae tank and see how pH and alkalinity are affected and determine if CO2 dosing in an all macro tank is beneficial as well. Put it this way, I'm pretty sure the macros in my tank are using CO2, so there is a positive association going on there. The alkalinity is solid and doesnt waver much at all.. it certainly doesnt erode like it used to. I dont think the macros are using high amounts of alkalinity for carbon needs now with the CO2 freely being available in the water column. It would also be fun to see if enriching seawater for CO2 caused any positive (or negative) events. But.. enriching would be an experiment for a tank with only plants in it.. wouldnt want to risk a fish or some coral/other inverts.

If you have your heart set on turtle grass I would try to get a collection of this species from a fairly local source and see if you can have them collect a long fragment of several sister plants on a rhizome. Ask that they collect a good amount of mud from around the area that the plants are living and incorporate this in your new setup. Plants that are bare root would be less desirable than one with some mud on the roots intact. Then toss a halide over the plants and see what happens. Then decide about CO2/other nutrient dosing.

Its still great to hear you're interested in playing around with some grasses this summer, I love that more people are getting hooked on seagrasses. Definitely keep thinking about the plans and feel free to ask lots and lots of questions here.. there are a few people now who are willing and able to help.

I am also planning a new system for the summer.. hopefully a 40gal breeder sunlit system focusing on getting Thalassia to play nice. The suggestions I gave you are the ones that I will try to follow in my own tank.

PS: I sure hope your jawfish is alright! I miss mine.

>Sarah

[CELACANTHr]

Yes, this is a wonderful resource!

This tank actually won't have any fish in it, and won't have any invertebrates in it, until the "experiminting" stage is over, or if i have serious algae issues.

Here is my plan:
1)Settup tank, and use just caulerpa from an established tank
2)Watch this tank for alk, and PH, and maybe try CO2
3) Rip up the caulerpa, and sell, or send off to people
4)Re-plant the tank with just one vascular, I am thinking Stargrass
5) Watch the tank for PH, and Alk swings, and maybe try CO2
6)Rip them up (not really gonna rip em up, don't wanna hurt the roots), and sell em
6)Re-plant tank with a different seagrass, probably manatee grass
7)Watch tank for PH, and Alk, and maybe try CO2
8)"Rip up" some of the plants, and sell them
9) Start the Keys seagrass-flat biotope

What do you think of "The plan"?
Oh, and could you give me some info on your sandbed? Like what size particles you used, when you think I should add "mud" if you think I should, and how deep your sand bed is.

thanx Samala!

[Samala]

I think the plan will be a very fun exercise in plant succession as it happens in disturbed coastal areas that are capable of supporting plant life. Wonderful idea. You may want to keep some Caulerpa in the tank as you transition to vascular plants just to keep nuisance algaes in check as the grasses recover from transplant shock. I love that you are thinking of trying CO2 with all these different groupings.

For substrate: I've used 1-3mm grain sized CaribSea flamingo pink substrate. Its great stuff, not too fine, not too coarse. I also used quite a few pounds of mud substratum from a seagrass bed, this was mostly composed of silica sand actually. I also added commercial mud, Walt Smith refugia stuff, Fiji Gold I believe.. just a quarter of the container, mixed into the bottom of the substrate. Depth - 4" at the front, 6" at the back. The bottom of my aquarium has lots (and LOTS) of roots pushed up against the glass.. further evidence that these considerable DSB sizes are not actually as deep as they could be.

I would be very tempted to setup the tank to support the turtle grasses in the beginning to prevent doing a rework of the substrate later on. Up to you. Honestly as I suggested I would definitely try to get ahold of some mud occurring alongside the turtle grasses in the wild and have that in the bed. It would be really hard to do before you actually get the plants though, so perhaps setting it up for seagrasses first is the best idea and then when you get to the turtle grass stage add in the 'wild mud' that the supplier sends to you.

Y'know the farther these seagrass flat ideas get the more I feel we need more pics of the biotope for ideas on how to set them up. So.. I suppose I will have to, sigh, schedule a Keys trip when I visit at Easter in order to supply some pics. Geez guys, you make me work so hard!

>Sarah

[Samala]

Welp, cyano has been popping up in very small pockets over the last few days. I'm manually dosing nitrate (enough for a 2ppm rise) twice a day and by dinnertime I see cyano on the sandbed and my Caulerpa looks pale. Arghhhhhhhhhh its time to setup an automatic drip I do believe.

PS: Havent had to give the tank phosphate again since adding in a Centropyge argi and keeping up with tap water top offs. Stays at 0.1ppm.

>Sarah

[CELACANTHr]

Hey sarah! I am exteremely interested in the drip once you have it settup. I am thinking of using one once my tank is finished.
Are you going to buy one our, will it be DIY?