Isla Escondido - invincible569's Rimless 300g - Page 16

GSMguy · #**376** 08/12/2007, 09:58 AM

i would get an inline TDS meter to measure the water before going into the DI and one to measure the finall product.

your tank deserves the best

and it will save you money on DI resin in the long run.

BuckeyeFS · #**377** 08/12/2007, 10:04 AM

Although some folks like the inline meters, and we do sell a lot of them, I prefer the handhelds. They allow you to easily take readings in more than 2 locations, and in the case of a TDS3 or COM-100 HM Digital meter, the handhelds are more accurate.

Russ

GSMguy · #**378** 08/12/2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BuckeyeFS
Although some folks like the inline meters, and we do sell a lot of them, I prefer the handhelds. They allow you to easily take readings in more than 2 locations, and in the case of a TDS3 or COM-100 HM Digital meter, the handhelds are more accurate.

Russ

nevermind what i said, not going to argue with the Rodi gods.

stony_corals · #**379** 08/12/2007, 10:15 AM

I've been getting my membranes from http://thefilterguyz.biz, really high quality membranes as well as other RO/DI stuff... great service as well.

The TDS meter at the top http://www.thefilterguys.biz/tds_meters.htm has been helpful too. I typically run between 0 and 1 ppm TDS after the membrane. I put one of the sensors after the membrane, and a second after my two DI cartridges...

tanya72806 · #**380** 08/12/2007, 10:22 AM

I agree I had HUGE problems w/ my inline TDS now I only use the handhelds

invincible569 · #**381** 08/12/2007, 10:28 AM

Russ, there is about 2 drops a second being produced while the waste water is a lot. I havent measured it yet as I just read on how to do this by your post. I can do that next.

GSM, you got it.

Thanks Stony and Tanya.

jnarowe · #**382** 08/12/2007, 10:32 AM

Check your resin canisters to make sure they are in correctly!

stony_corals · #**383** 08/12/2007, 10:38 AM

What is your water pressure? I'm pretty lucky ~90... 2 drops per second seems pretty slow...

invincible569 · #**384** 08/12/2007, 10:55 AM

It is slow and this is not its normal rate. One morning i walked in and noticed my RO water tank halfway full. Thats how I new something was wrong.

I measured the permeate output and I get 60 drops in 60 seconds. The waste around this time fills a full cup. Its definitely not 4x the permeate produced.

I never took out the canisters and it was working before. I did take them out to see if anything was clogged.

BuckeyeFS · #**385** 08/12/2007, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GSMguy
nevermind what i said, not going to argue with the Rodi gods.

HA!

BuckeyeFS · #**386** 08/12/2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by invincible569
I measured the permeate output and I get 60 drops in 60 seconds. The waste around this time fills a full cup. Its definitely not 4x the permeate produced.

So considering the cup you were using, how much is 60 drops? 1/4 of the cup?

Russ

AZDesertRat · #**387** 08/12/2007, 11:04 AM

How old are your prefilter and carbon block?
What is your water pressure before the RO/DI unit?
What is your water pressure available at the RO membrane, ie after the prefilter and carbon block?
What is your water temperature?

Pressure and temperature are the two biggest factors in RO production. If your water temperature is less than 77 degrees F you will produce less than the rated output.
If your pressure is less than 50-60 psi you will produce less than the rated output, and thats at the membrane after the filters.
Plugged filters can make a huge difference in output since they restrict the pressure to the membrane. I have my personal unit plumbed with two pressure gauges so at a glance I can see bothe the house pressure and the pressure at the membrane. I also record the water temperature.
The COM-100 handheld TDS meter Buckeye recommended earlier is the one to have, it is extremely accurate plus gives you temperature too.

I have found in the past when using less expensive prefilters it passed solids on to my carbon block making it work harder and plugging it so even changing the prefilter did not help since it was not the bad spot. It led to the pressure drop but was not causing it. Once I replaced the carbon it came back up.

Always use high quality 1 micron or smaller sized prefilters and carbon blocks to provide the maximum protection for the membrane. I use 0.2 or 0.5 micron prefilters and a 0.5 micron carbon block and change them at 6 month intervals.

invincible569 · #**388** 08/12/2007, 11:11 AM

Russ, not even. It's about 1/10th.

AZ, Im sure temp does have an affect, but I have been running this RO/DI system for 5+ yrs in the same spot. Water was cool when it comes out. It has never been this slow and it just happened overnight. Here are the answers to your questions:

1. 3 months old on Prefilter and Carbon. Membrane is 6 months.
2. I dont have any gauges, but will get some soon.
3. Cool water at about 80 degrees give or take.

Do you all agree that my problem is still the membrane?

BuckeyeFS · #**389** 08/12/2007, 11:59 AM

With the info you've provided, its likely either a clogged prefilter(s) or a membrane gone bad.

Given tahat your membrane is new - my first guess is the prefilters.

If you buy new prefilters and a new membrane - and don't immediately need all of them - you don't have to worry about a shelf life on any of them - store 'em until you need 'em.

Russ

AZDesertRat · #**390** 08/12/2007, 12:10 PM

I would have to agree with Russ, membranes don't normally go bad quickly, it happens over time.
Just for giggles, remove your prefilter and test it with an empty housing for a few minutes and see if it improves. Then try it without both the prefilter and carbon for a few minutes, no longer so you don't expose the membrane to too much chlorine. If it improves its definitely the pre and carbon filters.

invincible569 · #**391** 08/12/2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AZDesertRat
I would have to agree with Russ, membranes don't normally go bad quickly, it happens over time.
Just for giggles, remove your prefilter and test it with an empty housing for a few minutes and see if it improves. Then try it without both the prefilter and carbon for a few minutes, no longer so you don't expose the membrane to too much chlorine. If it improves its definitely the pre and carbon filters.

GOOD CALL on the troubleshooting steps! This was the issue.

I removed all of the cartridges and found out that flow was normal as it should be. I replaced the DI (last one) in and flow was still good. I then put the middle one back in and flow slowed down. I did clean it out and dripping is a couple drops faster, but not normal.

Thanks to the both of the RODI gods for saving me $80-$100 on a membrane.

ONE thing was fixed.. now my other Aqua Medic Oceanrunner 3500 that feeds my skimmer stopped working this weekend. I dont know what it is this weekend, but there is a black cloud over me. I have it in vinegar right now hoping to clean it out good. I didnt see the shaft break so thats a good sign.

jnarowe · #**392** 08/12/2007, 03:33 PM

I have been recently told to not use such low micron pre-filters...so difference of opinion coming out here. It could be as simple as not being properly seated as well. Are you using any lubricant on the membrane gasket?

I had the exact same problem and it turned out my resin canisters were in upside down.

Edit: ooops, too late!

invincible569 · #**393** 08/12/2007, 03:35 PM

jnarowe, I dont use any lubricant. Should I be? I will go and flip it over and see if it makes a difference.

BuckeyeFS · #**394** 08/12/2007, 03:43 PM

Its not a bad idea to use a very small dab of silicone grease on the double orings on the membrane stem. However - this isn't an issue in your case. If the orings were bad you'd be seeing high flow and high tds from your purified water port...

Your DI cartridge should be installed with the black washer at the top, the removeable cap at the bottom, and incoming water should be coming through the port marked "in" on the housing.

Russ

jnarowe · #**395** 08/12/2007, 03:56 PM

Russ is right about the o-rings, but I have found one of the interesting differences between membranes is the gasket at the other end. Some are robust and some are kind of flimsy, so that could be an issue too, but I doubt it would cause the problem you are having either.

That was one of my more stupid reefing moments went I pulled apart my DI canisters and saw the arrow on them!

invincible569 · #**396** 08/12/2007, 04:04 PM

Thanks Russ and Jonathan. I flipped it and its the same speed. Both ends look identical with a black gasket on each side. Im going to replace the middle carbon cartridge and call it a day.

I've also managed to get my Oceanrunner 3500 working again that feeds my skimmer. Just a little vinegar and cleaned it out and its working like a charm. These pumps worry me now and looks like I will need to replace it soon.

AZDesertRat · #**397** 08/12/2007, 04:20 PM

Prefilters and carbons protect your RO membrane. There should never be any reason not to use as fine a rating as possible. If you are on a domestic well and have sediment problems then add a whole house or larger micron up front but never skimp on protecting your membrane or you will be replacing it much more often.

jnarowe · #**398** 08/12/2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by invincible569
Thanks Russ and Jonathan. I flipped it and its the same speed. Both ends look identical with a black gasket on each side.

There should be arrows on the resin cartridges. You are still having problems though regardless. This is when our patience really gets tested. I spent a month going through scads of resing, replacing every filter and membrane, until Marc pointed out that issue. I hope you find your issue soon!

Could it be that the restrictor is pinched?

CAreefer · #**399** 08/12/2007, 10:15 PM

E, glad you got it sorted out. As was stated, the carbon block prefilters protect your membrane (always use a good lube

). My water supply has pretty high sediments and a TDS of ~400. I'm entering the 3rd year on my 75 gpd membrane and still get 2 tds post membrane. I picked up a couple more of the clear housings, from the water supply, I use a cheapo 20 micron pleated sediment filter, then a 5 mic sediment before it even reaches the RO unit. Then into the first of 3 prefilters there. I have a good 1 mic sediment in the first position there, then a .5 carbon and .1 mic carbon then finally the membrane. Post membrane 4, DI housings. Big ole thing, but I change the first two sediment filters every 45 days or so and monitor the pressure after the 1 micron sediment.

Get the pressure gauge. 2 or 3 is better yet.

Marshal

jnarowe · #**400** 08/12/2007, 10:39 PM

Are there John Guest attachable pressure guages?