Quarantine/Hyposalinity Question

[plaz]

We just lost our new Hippo in quarantine. We were trying to eliminate ich once and for all by letting the tank go fallow for 8 weeks. Got the new Hippo 3 1/2 weeks ago. Delayed shipment almost froze him. He shook for a day and hid in the PVC pipe for another week - but was hungry and ate well after the first day.

He showed no real signs of ich but did rub against the pipe a little. To ensure no ich, we decided after 2 weeks and a LOT of reading to make sure we did not introduce it. We bought a refractometer for the procedure.

We dropped the salinity on a second quarantine containing 4 small chromis at the same time. After the salinity was dropped (over 4 days), the cycle was lost. We removed filtration media and did a careful 30 - 50% water change each night. Matched PH and Salinity each time. Still had horrible battle with nitrites - but we kept them within reason (under 1 by salifert/trace according to strips). The fish seemed to come around beautifully. He was friendly, outgoing, ate anything (gracilaria, pellets, frozen food). Stayed out most of the time, swam with the Chromis.

Today, he died a long horrible death. This morning he could not get his balance and breathed heavily. I did 2 50% water changes. He acted like he was poisoned. Body curled some (like he was cramping), breathed heavily and shook off and on. As stated, we lost him. His color was still great. No streaking or signs of parasites, etc. The chromis seem okay.

In case you can help, these are my questions:
1) Could the hyposalinity have caused this
2) Is earlier shipping damage a possibility (even though he seemed now to be in perfect health).
3) Could ammonia or nitrite kill one fish, leaving no marks (and the heartier fish untouched)

4) The reason I put this in your forum: Is it possible to cycle a tank in Hyposalinity (1.008 - 1.009)? LiveAquaria says we should have let it cycle and should Never Ever have done 50% water changes. But for treatment/quarantine - what should you do?

Thanks in advance for any information!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm by no menas an expert on fish and their diseases, but I would guess that it was not the hypo that hurt the fish as much as the other stresses and diseases.

Ammonia can easily kill a marine fish at low levels. Les than 1 ppm can be a big problem. Marine fish are not very sensitive to nitrite, and I do not believe that it caused the problem. Some fish seem fine in 100 + ppm nitrite. I wouldn't even bothering measuring nitrite, myself.

I'm sure that a tank can be cycled in hyposaline conditions. Is the optimal bacteria the same? I do not know. I've not heard that going to hyposalline conditions can causes a nitrogen cycle problem, but perhaps it can. Also possible is that the filter was just not up to the task, hyposaline or not.

While 50% changes may be streessful, some folks do them without killing fish.

[plaz]

Thank you very much. I guess it unfortunately could have been somehow related to the delayed shipment after all. I hate it - but it makes me feel a little better that it may not have been my fault.

The ammonia was never more than a trace (safe level). It was the Nitrite I was really worried about.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Better luck in the future!

[trueperc]

I am not chemist, but I have a friend with a related story. Got a hippo and it was fine for about two week ( QT ) eating, swimming around and then the same as you ( plaz ) and after talking to the LFS and doing a little research, it was not your fault at all, in fact it sounds like a case of cyanide catching which is sadly still around.

[plaz]

Thank you. I am sorry your friend had the same experience - you can't help but get attached to these great and friendly fish. It is a horrible practice that I wish we could stop! I even tried to check to see if he was net caught (but I know the suppliers can't all be trusted). Did your friend get his from the LFS?

[trueperc]

SYes he did get it from the LFS, but like you said not all suppliers can be trusted and maybe they don't even know. I still can't believe people do this, but in some places and some peoples eyes there is no love and care of animals just the mighty $$$$

[plaz]

Agreed. If people were treated in the same way they treat animals, the world would be a better place!

[leebca]

plaz,

Some considerations and opinions about your questions:

1. Hyposalinity is used to stress the parasite. It stresses inverts to death, it stresses bacteria, pods, fish, etc. to various levels (from none to fatality). An already stressed fish can find the hypo stress to be too much to take.

2) Almost anything is possible.

3) Yes. Autopsy can aid in understanding its demise, but a bit much for the average aquarist would care to do.

4) You had the fish in quarantine for 2 weeks before deciding to treat with hyposalinity. You sort of combined two uses of the quarantine process. You usually either quarantine to watch the fish to see if it has a disease, infection, or malady OR you begin treating the fish in a prophylactic kind of way. You sort of combined the two. I would not do this.

I quarantine all tangs and immediately begin hypo treatment. For insight into some neat considerations to qt you might want to read StevenPro's article in Reefkeeping of a couple months ago. Then decide what you want your qt to do for you.

The water changes, nitrites, and ammonia are all stresses on a fish already probably under stress; and usually mentally screwed up from the trip to your tank.

[plaz]

Hi Lee,
I appreciate and agree with your comments. We did read Steven's articles several times. I think they are fantastic, but would like to see him add a few more cautions and suggestions in a little more detail for long term hyposalinity success.

Especially these facts (okay, not necessarily facts, just my opinion after going through this as carefully as I knew how):

1) Your cycle will be lost and that you MUST do at least 40% - 50% carefully matched water changes twice daily WITH a conditioner such a Seachem Stability for your fish to safely make it through this (unless you have one Chromis in a 20 gallon tank).

2) You should not feed your fish as much as they will consume in 2 minutes even if you vacuum afterwards. Don't starve them, but feed very, very sparingly. Because you will have ammonia and nitrites spikes as your tank tries to go through new cycles.

3) It would be nice to have a maximun inches of fish for the quarantine size listed (just a thought).

4) Add how long it is safe to keep a fish at 1.009 (just something I would like to know, since it was nerve racking thinking of starting this over)

---
Also, I waited the 2 weeks thinking the fish would be strong enough then. He was practically frozen to death when I got him.

I agree, I should simply have watched him and would never put another fish through this unless I was absolutely sure it had ich (this one just rubbed the PVC Pipe a little and I was so xxxlklkid jx set on getting an absolutely ich free tank that I jumped in too quickly)!

PS Is Cupramine safe for a Tang with ich? I've heard mixed feelings on the long-term harm of both copper and hyposalinity - but a safe brand of copper seems like it may be less stressful than this on the fish, and on me. My Yellow Tang, which made it though this okay (in a different tank) would not eat, hid and stayed pale throughout the week I had her in treatment (I've been bringing her out really slowly - and she is looking good now).

[leebca]

plaz,

Thanks for your reply.

1) is not necessary in a quarantine tank set up with bio-balls or an outside bio-filtration. Steven's article was clear about maintaining the bio filtration and gave tips on how to do this.

2) No problem if you follow the above. I always overfeed my fish. Both in qt and display. But, I have a bio system to take care of that load. So the generality is not good. As usual in this hobby, that advice is shrouded in "that depends."

3) Not too important (see 1 and 2 above). Consider the dealer's tanks. The fish are there a few weeks, quite crowded. Also, inches of fish is not the important part of the bio-load formula. You really need to know the bio load demand of the specimen. A skinny 4" butterflyfish is not the same bio load demand as a 4" grouper, for instance.

4) This is still debatable. The quarantining of fish should be suited to the fish's ability to ward off disease, survive the treatment, and tolerance of the care given. Some believe that a hyposalinity treatment reduces the fish lifespan. There are so many parameters to try and control, scientific info on this is tough to get. But, as usual, there is plenty of anecdotal info out there.

Good news on the Yellow. Tangs and copper work together, but keeping a lower-than-desired concentration is safer for the fish and less effective to kill the parasite. I wouldn't give a tang a copper treatment, personally. Just hypo.

Good luck!