Who was in the wrong?

[shappy]

Just for discussions sake I thought I would throw out a incident that happened to my wife and I. We disagree on the ethics involved.

Ok we were at a LFS a couple hours from our house. It is not my regular but I do know the owner(even had dinner with him and his wife a couple times) and I buy quite of bit of drygoods from them. There was a couple there looking at a huge gonipora. Now from talking to the owner that same day I know they just received it in. The couple was telling an employee that they had just set up their tank two weeks ago and was wondering if the Goni was a good buy. I couldn't believe it when the employee stated that Gonis are very easy to keep and this one especially so because they had it their tanks for months(lie). When the employee walked off, I informed the couple that it was a bad buy with a high mortality and definately wouldn't make it in their tank. Well when the employee came back they must of expressed concern over the purchase. Next thing I know the employee to my face called me a liar once again stating how Gonis are "one of the easiest corals I have ever kept, I have 3 at home and we have never heard of a Customer having one die). This elcalated as you can imagine and we left the store. (I didn't purchase what I intended to either). Well the next day the owner calls to tell me that I am no longer allowed in his store and hung up. Upon telling my wife she was mad at me. She stated that I was completely in the wrong for discouraging the guys business. I had cost him money and they don't have all that much. She said I was ethically wrong because these people make our hobby possible and have to make a living to. She stated that if someone came into my company bad mouthing the product in front of Customers the same ban would have taken place. So who do you feel is right? Do you speak up when bad purchases are being encouraged by the LFS? Do you think the ban was appropriate? I can kinda see both sides but I think it is ridicules to make money off people by lying. Well?

[thrlride]

shappy,

Look at it this way.... The gonipora is an animal and will more than likely die. Would they sell a cat or a dog if there is a high likelyhood that it will perish? I don't think so...

I understand how they would be upset, that was lost money from them and might give them a bad name with other customers. Does that make it right though?

[haid]

I would have spoke up.

[shappy]

yea, that is what I was thinking. I didn't really want to put them down if front of them but I didn't want the poor couple to waste their money either. This thing was 70.00 dollars. I know I would have appreciated it when I started out. Killed two Gonis myself. Like I told my wife, I didn't make them not buy it just threw some info out there. They were the ones who confronted me and I therefore had to tell them they were full of it. Sad to say we lost from friends over it but oh well I guess. I could see it from the employee but I wouldn't have thought the owner would be like that.(seemed to be knowledgable in our discussions). I even helped unpack some of the shipment that day.

[Nuhtty]

My $0.02

You did that couple a favor. You saved them money and also the hassle of a delicate organism probably dying in their tank.

As far as the store goes, any business that operates so dishonestly DESERVES to be bad mouthed.

Most of us would feel bad selling something to a complete stranger if we KNEW it was crap.

Same thing goes here. If it were my business, I would feel bad making a profit off of ignorance.

I think the best businesses do well financially because they have a repeat customer base and good word of mouth.

Which sounds better?

"Those SOBs at that fish store sold me this coral and told me how easy it was..."

OR

"Hey...that guy was great...at least he was honest and not out to make a buck...at least I know where to go for good information."

IMO, it isnt much of a loss for you to be banned from that store. Consider it a blessing that you will no longer be supporting a business that only corrupts this hobby.

Selling used cars is a business. Selling living animals is a responsibility.

[shappy]

Thats exacly what I told the wife. When you are dealing with living creatures you have to take their care into consideration. For instance someone selling great dane puppies would probably comment if the buyer stated they were going to house it in a small apartment. My wife believes it the consumers job to research and know what they are buying. By the way I think she is really mad because she liked his wife a lot as well. Whats funny is one time when they were at my house he questioned me having two manderins in a 125 with a 125 fuge. Go figure.

[Nuhtty]

Originally posted by shappy
Thats exacly what I told the wife. When you are dealing with living creatures you have to take their care into consideration. For instance someone selling great dane puppies would probably comment if the buyer stated they were going to house it in a small apartment. My wife believes it the consumers job to research and know what they are buying. By the way I think she is really mad because she liked his wife a lot as well. Whats funny is one time when they were at my house he questioned me having two manderins in a 125 with a 125 fuge. Go figure.

Women.

You did the right thing.

[scottfarcuz]

I feel if this is there normal business practice and the owner feels adding ANY $70 coral to a 2 week old system is a good start for a newbie your better off not associating or spending any of your money there.

[benonmsn]

u helped the couple at the expense of the LFS owner who you have had dinner with. thats all.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

I sympathize with LFS owners and employees because I understand that, for many of them, there's not a lot of money in it. I never forget that, and I really do sympathize with them as business people and am willing to pay more for items there than I can get mail order in order to build a relationship and get advice.

That said, you witnessed an employee of that store basically leading some people down the primrose path to a bad sale and a dead animal. You did the right thing. Ideally, you could have talked the salesperson into giving them better advice on things they COULD buy and when and setting up future sales and expectations. But it didn't go down like that.

BTW, with a month in the hobby I've aquired the bulk of my goods from a LFS and have probably overspent by 30% or so off of comparable best prices on line. I've gotten some personalized service out of it. But I'm afraid to say that some of it has been wrong or sloppy (selling me the wrong bulkheads for my tank and making me come back and explain it and then selling me different wrong bulkheads and then I figure it out before I get three blocks away and explain it to them again). And they have been pushing livestock on me as well, even though I know better from sites like this.

The latest disappointment was buying some snails from them and reading Dr. Ron's column about how "margarita snails" are really cold water snails that will die very prematurely in my tropical SW tank. So I'm about fed up with my LFS over these basically "little things" that show me a basic lack of attentiveness in spite of the fact I've dropped well over two grand there in just a few weeks.

Time to switch LFS's.

[johnpoole]

i would have (and have) done the same thing, the ban was a lfs owner trying to make a buck.. i don't do business with people like that so, the ban would be mute.. i do what little i can to protect this hobby, the lfs owner gives his trade a bad name... would anyone argue if you had stopped him from selling someone a dog to train to fight.. either way the livestock dies.. i learned the hard way, don't listen to people who only make money if they lie.. congrats on doing the right thing

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by johnpoole
i would have (and have) done the same thing, the ban was a lfs owner trying to make a buck.. i don't do business with people like that so, the ban would be mute.. i do what little i can to protect this hobby, the lfs owner gives his trade a bad name... would anyone argue if you had stopped him from selling someone a dog to train to fight.. either way the livestock dies.. i learned the hard way, don't listen to people who only make money if they lie.. congrats on doing the right thing

FWIW, I think it was the employee who did the bad thing. Many of those guys are on commission and so maybe he was the one lying here.

Sure, ultimately it all goes to the owner, but let's not cast a broad brush here.

[Nuhtty]

If that was my store, that kid wouldnt be working there very long.

[johnpoole]

yes but the owner pushed the ban, he trained the kid..

[bsw445]

I think you acted quite appropriately. I myself have discouraged people from buying livestock they aren't ready for, even working in a LFS myself. In fact, the owner of our store, has told us to do such. It creates trust and keeps the customer coming back time and time again.

This kid that worked there, would probably have tried to sell parents a blue-ringed octopus for their childrens bedroom tank to meet quota.

Good for you for speaking up!!!

[haid]

Thanks for the support everyone. I felt it was the right thing to do. I have had other simular experiences but this was the first time I have ever had an employee continue to insist that wrong info was right. Usually they change their tune and start acting like they were just about to say that. Well I already don't visit two LFS for simular reasons and now another is gone. I only frequent one other and it is a ways away but always very reputable. They are who I usually buy stock through anyway so no big deal. Guess I will have to start ordering online more. Thanks everybody.

[SoonerBolt]

I bought a blue linkia starfish and a purple nudibranch in one trip to a LFS....I wish someone would have told me they both had high mortality rates and I needed to research them more. The next time I was in there, they tried to sell me a huge flowerpot.

The same store I heard give advice to stock a new tank for damsels to cycle it. Does anyone do that and not regret it later when the Damsels turn to devils?

I think you were right in speaking up. The customer probably didn't have to tell the employee who told him, but that's the way it works sometimes.

Its really the Golden Rule. That and if the LFS was doing things right in the first place the issue would have never popped up.

[DgenR8]

Every time I go to a LFS, I bring some "cards" with the URL for Reef Central on them. When I come across the customer that's pondering a purchase they shouldn't make, I ask them if they know anything about the animal. When they say "no, I just think it looks pretty" I hand them a card, and tell them to come here and do some reading. This way, I can defuse a situation without actually stepping on any one's toes. Tell the customer to put a deposit on their intended purchase, so they don't lose it, and let them see for themselves why they should get their deposit back.

[ROBERLEA]

GREAT ITS ABOUT TIME
im sick of listening to LFS giving bad advise to new people to the hobby just to make a quick buck\pound i watched a retailer sell a partialy bleached acro to someone new in the hobby gust this saterday
it makes my blood boil
why not start a name and shame list if for no other reason than the future of the hobby

and another list of good old strait dedicated retailers

to many of these jerks know they can get away with these type of sales and how many tell you that there fish only tanks are treated with copper {opps starting to get carried away im gonna have to stop or i could be writing this for weeks }

any way one for the good guys
sevenaoks tropical marine kent uk always fair always honest
10\10

[haid]

DgenR8

That is a good idea.

Yea, I don't even know if they bought it or not but if they did they can at least blame themselves.

[scottfarcuz]

Originally posted by ROBERLEA
why not start a name and shame list if for no other reason than the future of the hobby

and another list of good old strait dedicated retailers

Before you know it the bad stores will register here just to bash the good stores. Then the list is useless.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by scottfarcuz
Before you know it the bad stores will register here just to bash the good stores. Then the list is useless.

Yep. Better to praise the good ones.

LFS bashing is just an invitation for trouble and also really, really subjective.

[ROBERLEA]

yea i did ponder that idea my self but i do notice a trend in the uk
towards the rip off type dealer and how they attract newbies.
although the logistics of name and shame is floored
thay dam well need to be named and shamed
i have a habit of getting to talk to newbies in these type of retailer and redirecting them to more honest retailers
!!!!!theres always the option of a current members thread where new members would not be able to post. only to read
because hey lets face it that pink stylophora you been looking for or that rarer than rare acro has just been sentenced to death with someone who still hasn`t cycled their tank
l feel that newbies to any hobby look to people they can trust and turn to for help and advise. in a sence they are like children that just need steering on the right path
in time like this forum they my be able to offer something back but not if there gonna fail before they get out of the retailer who see`s each newbie as £$ signs as the saying goes theres one born every minute
so i say KILL THE RIP OF RETAILER ( JUST JOKING)
it would be nice to make this type of retailer clean up their act
and actually offer a true service


note
gone are the days where the man in the white suit wins

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

I doubt anybody opens a LFS because (s)he sees it as a quick way to big money and (s)he doesn't give a rip about the well-being of aquarium animals. Think about it. Just about every LFS owner and employee probably started as a hobbiest .

But I think the pressure to have decent cash flow is pretty extreme. If you have customers coming in your shop for advice and leaving without opening their wallet at all, you can't pay the light bill. And that's a lot of lights!!!

Plus, I think the need to hire employees who are truly experts in aquarium care is mitigated by the need to have employees who are also decent salespeople (i.e. some people may know aquarium life well, but just have no people skills) and who are also WILLING to work for an hourly wage that you can pay out without going broke.

So you bust your behind to open a store and are neck deep in debt to get your equipment and lease and meet payroll and then what if your customers are doing a lot of looking and not much buying?

[ROBERLEA]

how would you feel if you went to you local electical retailer come out with a new dvd player but didn`t have a tv to play it on
would that be OK because they need your money