Fundamental misgivings about the hobby?

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by mmd
So mud shrimp moe "So metaphysics aside, Tangs are just a lot rarer resource and deserve responsible treatment." does that mean we should treat a blue eyed blonde better than a brown eyed brunette as they are rarer.

Whatever type you like best, dude.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by jjjimmy
I still find it absolutely amazing how every one believes that their ethics and morals apply to the rest of the world. Each of us as individuals have had different life experiences that lead us to feel and believe in our own way and no other individual has the right to tell us to think or believe in any other way.

Please, this is a hobby and just that a hobby, can't we keep our own ethics and morals to ourselves?

This site has plenty of rooms that aren't titled "Responsible Reefkeeping." Perhaps you'd be more comfortable reading in one of those than chastising those of us participating in this thread for discussing matters related to the room title, "Responsible Reefkeeping." I don't believe I'm preachy at all, but I did assume this room existed to discuss this type of content.

So, if you don't want to discuss God, stay away from churches. If you don't want to interact with people drinking alcohol, stay away from bars. If you don't like old people, stay away from nursing homes. It's a free country, mang.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by mmd
So mud shrimp moe "So metaphysics aside, Tangs are just a lot rarer resource and deserve responsible treatment." does that mean we should treat a blue eyed blonde better than a brown eyed brunette as they are rarer.

Lots of women dye their hair and get colored contacts because blue-eyed, blonde women are treated better.

[mmd]

jjjjimmy good point.
mud shrimp moe good counterpoint.

[mmd]

shoe string reefer touche'

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Mud Shrimp Moe
So metaphysics aside, Tangs are just a lot rarer resource and deserve responsible treatment.

I think that is the fundamental misgiving that this thread is about. Although I agree 100%, if we base our care for all of the animals in our tanks based on rarity we start to slide down that slippery slide and it's hard to stop. I really don't think that yellow tangs are very rare, does this mean we can mistreat them, no. I know that's not what you're saying but do see how we can end up with some thinking that based on your statement?

[Dolfan0925]

Yeah Jimmy, it's just a discussion...isn't that what forums are for??

Morals/ethics are definitely up to the individual, if it's not illegal it's up to us to decide. It's not necessarily illegal to see a hottie walkin down the street and call her all sorts of names like she's a piece of meat, but I wouldn't do it.

I think if the government wants to get involved with preserving reefs they should start somewhere else besides us. Fishing boats will do more damage to the ecosystem of the oceans than we will ever do. I personally feel that it's the reefers that, while taking a part of the reef for their collection, it's us that go out and educate the people on keeping the reefs healthy. If we didn't have reefs we wouldn't be so concerned. Out of sight, out of mind. We're an investment by Mother Nature.

And yeah, lets not kill the dolphins while we're killing the Tuna.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by The Punisher
I think that is the fundamental misgiving that this thread is about. Although I agree 100%, if we base our care for all of the animals in our tanks based on rarity we start to slide down that slippery slide and it's hard to stop. I really don't think that yellow tangs are very rare, does this mean we can mistreat them, no. I know that's not what you're saying but do see how we can end up with some thinking that based on your statement?

Well, the example there was Tangs versus Aiptaisia. FWIW, I agree with you totally, but the example was asking why treat Tangs better than Aiptaisia.

But it's a clumsy attempt at a straw man argument. Why not compare Tangs to weeds in my front lawn? I slaughter them en masse every Spring. So ..... the argument goes ..... why should I care about the life of a Tang or Mandarin or anemone? The argument is pointless because it can be stretched any way you want. If I shouldn't care about kiling weeds or anemones then why not kill any human that I don't happen to like as well?

In the end, I kill the weeds to preserve my lawn and I kill the Aiptasia to preserve my tank and I kill (by proxy) shrimp and other sea life to feed my fish and coral, but I try to not just kill things randomly or without reason or regard.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Buy and large, I think it's reasonable to think that animals without a central nervous system and brain (ie, aptasia and even our precious corals and anemones) are not as similar to humans as fish and mobile inverts like shrimp and crabs, and that similarity is what makes mistreatment of a fish less acceptable than killing aptasia or other inverts. Fish learn to recognize us, watch us walk around, attack each other by biting and chasing, and get scared and hide when my wife waves her arms near the tank. Corals change size when they poop, retract when poked, attack each other in weard ways, and anemones move to a spot with better light and flow.

In some parts of the world, local governments kill large numbers of stray dogs and cats because of the disease they can spread and damage they do. It's considered as tragic but necessary, even by those of us who keep dogs and cats as pets. We don't give a crap if mud shrimp kills weeds in his lawn. Dogs and cats are a lot more similar to humans than weeds are to humans, that's all.

[The Punisher]

I wouldn't say the argument is pointless, it is very extreme but it helps point out the difficulty in distinguishing between "meaningful" life (for lack of a better word) and life that is not so meaningful. Since you don't like the tang vs. aiptasia argument, what if I have a couple of clowns/tangs/shrimp (take your pic) in my tank who produce tons of offspring. I have no predators to the offspring and I just let them grow. At some point they become a nuisance to me and overtake my tank, do I have the right to kill them all just because they are a nuisance and propagated in my tank? Again, a very extreme example, but it's the same point. Just because something is a pest or a nuisance to us, do we have a right to end it's life?

[Dolfan0925]

Originally posted by Mud Shrimp Moe
In the end, I kill the weeds to preserve my lawn and I kill the Aiptasia to preserve my tank and I kill (by proxy) shrimp and other sea life to feed my fish and coral, but I try to not just kill things randomly or without reason or regard.

Most people kill the weeds because their lawn looks better without them (i.e. aptasia), go out in a field and there are weeds and grass co-existing.

[dendronepthya]

How about this comparison? Aiptasia vs. Rose Bubble Tips. Biologically very similar, but there is no question that they are not "equals." Same goes for a dog in the US (man's best friend) and a dog in Korea (lunch). How about a cow in the US (lunch) and a cow in India (revered beast).

The value of life is a social construct and far from universal.

[Dolfan0925]

Germany in the 1930's-40's where less than perfect humans were a "nusance"? I'm pretty sure this point is hammered below the ground. It just depends on who you ask.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by dendronepthya
How about this comparison? Aiptasia vs. Rose Bubble Tips.

If Rose Bubble Tips propogated out of control to the point that they took over a tank, then I'm sure people would be more cavalier about killing them too. I don't hate aptasia because it's aptasia. I hate it because once it gets in, it just goes nuts. Even still, I'd rather not kill it! I'd rather AVOID it! And if I have to kill it, I'd rather kill ONE of them than wait and kill 1,000 of them!

But since Rose Bubble Tips don't go out of control and, in fact, need fairly advanced care for long term health, it's a different matter.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by The Punisher
Since you don't like the tang vs. aiptasia argument, what if I have a couple of clowns/tangs/shrimp (take your pic) in my tank who produce tons of offspring. I have no predators to the offspring and I just let them grow. At some point they become a nuisance to me and overtake my tank, do I have the right to kill them all just because they are a nuisance and propagated in my tank?

Then you can break the argument down into two halves: killing something on purpose or letting something die from neglegence.

Neglegence:
Is the person who lets their clown or shrimp fry get eaten, or sucked into a pump/filter, any worse than the person who buys multiple tank-raised clowns or anemones and lets them die and then buys more? Both are neglegence, but the second person would be promoting captive breading, at least.

Intentional Killing:
Just because something is more reproductively successfull makes it less valuable? Only if it is valued solely as a posession, and it's value is simply that which is given to it by it's owner. That's the same reasoning people use when they do the practices we condone. There are many aptasia in my tank, they can reproduce, I can kill them because that will make my life better. There are many fish on the reef, they will reproduce, I can use cyanide because that will make my life better.

IMO The reason why people bring up references to blonde vs brunet, or human vs coral, or Naziz, is because (at least in our society) we give value to each human regardless of if we know them or if they are of value to us. We don't do that for corals or fish or most any other animal. That's why we kill aptasia but try to support BTAs; that's why we are proud to buy captive bred peppermints, and let their fry be killed. We care about what we care about, and to heck with everything else. But we'll scream as loud as the day is long whenever someone else prioritizes the animals in their little glass box differently than we do.

On another note: we're being pretty civilized so far, let's keep it up.

[Dolfan0925]

I know I've seen 1 or 2 LFS's that would scream if you killed their HUGE aptasia they had all over their tanks!

[Shoestring Reefer]

You mean rock anemones--they can be big money.

[Dolfan0925]

or glass anemones, I've actually seen them labeled as that.

[The Punisher]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
We care about what we care about, and to heck with everything else. But we'll scream as loud as the day is long whenever someone else prioritizes the animals in their little glass box differently than we do.

I think that is the best point mentioned so far. It's all about personal priorities and how we view each and every life differently. Is this right or wrong? Who's to say? I don't feel the least bit bad about killing aiptasia, I've killed many and continue to have problems with them. I don't feel the least bit bad if two clowns, wild caught or tank raised, spawn and the fry get chopped up by a powerhead or eaten. Some people do though. It's a tough thing to discuss with so many different people with different views on life but that is what makes a site like this great, you get the views of so many different people from so many different backgrounds. This is a great discussion and I hope it continues in the way it is.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

If an animal gets eaten by another animal, I don't feel nearly as bad as when an animal dies do to my neglect. Many of these animals are carnivores. Something has to die for them to live. But if something dies due to my neglect - that didn't have to happen.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
You mean rock anemones--they can be big money.

Are rock anemones aptaisia? I've often suspected, but was never sure.

[dendronepthya]

I think that is a very good point. When you take in a pet, you do so with the burden of providing for it. The whole point of getting the pet is rooted in some appreciation of it, and by implication, there is a duty to provide adequate care. To then neglect it is a breach of that duty.

Pest hitchhikers on the other hand do not come with that burden attached. For example, "I signed on to take care of the tang, not the ich parasites that came with it."

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by The Punisher
I don't feel the least bit bad if two clowns, wild caught or tank raised, spawn and the fry get chopped up by a powerhead or eaten. Some people do though.

My wife is horrified by the thought that our clowns might spawn and the fry die. So I have her "permission" to set up tanks to raise the fry-if they ever get around to spawning. One good thing from "Finding Nemo".

[Dolfan0925]

I guess nobody has had to feed their lizard/snake a cute little baby mouse. Death is a part of keeping a pet. Wether it be from mistakes, or from feeding, or ultimately outliving it. Part of life.

[s0|]

sorry to just jump in here but....

sometimes you have to kill things to make other things live.
You personally may have to kill ____ number of _____ to keep your “system� in balance.
compare this to.
wild life managers at national parks around have to shoot and kill hundreds of deer and elk just to keep them going through population cycles that could possibly nearly wipe them out. They often try and do something "good" with the dead deer and elk, but mostly they just get burnt to ash.

As we all know the lack of X keeping Y populations in check can ruin whole eco systems.

So if I *have* to feed some of the guppies I just raised to my bichir or cichlids, I am ok with it. If I have to remove some snails from a planted tank instead of adding a loach, I am ok with it. If my cichlids eat all their fry because I won’t separate them…. So be it. If someone has to cull their Aiptasia, I am ok with it. Ok maybe it would have been better to never have put it in the tank in the first place, but It’s not like a private aquarist should ever take a tank kept creature and put it back into the wild.

I think the larger issue would be to make sure that when we take something out of the wild we do it in a manner that ensures that we don’t reduce it to dangerously low population levels. But “we� are increasing the pressure on dealers to not collect certain things, educating aquarists on why they should not attempt to keep _____ does help a lot more than I think we are giving credit for. Tank propagation and sustainable collection habits is IMO the key to our hobby. I may be a cold hearted SOB but it does not bother me as much when someone looses a tank propagated species as much as when they loose a wild collected one. I want to say more here but I have homework due in 3 hours, and don’t have time type much more or make revisions to what I have already written. I hope my ideas come across the way I intended, but if you have questions about what I meant I will try and clarify in a later post. If you have comments I am open to those as well.