Fundamental misgivings about the hobby?

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Do any of you feel that the entire hobby suffers from a lack of ethics?

As a newbie, I'm very surprised how little captive breeding is happening and how common it is for people to acquire advanced species and kill them in short order. I know that it really comes down to the ethics of the individual hobbiest - and that is really kind of the fundamental problem. I think a lot of decent people are behaving unethically, not because they're bad people, but because they aren't thinking through things. The "Finding Nemo" craze is particularly disheartening.

Like probably most beginners, keeping anemones was one of my early goals, but I've pretty much decided against them, as I just don't have the heart to take on caring for an animal that could probably outlive me, or even my kids or grandkids, but probably won't live that long in captivity.

In fact, I may limit my tank population solely to animals that will propogate in captivity.

[Sloth]

As long as I don't contribute to any aspect of the hobby that has an effect on the natural environment, I'm happy.

I have a hard time getting upset if I kill a common coral. It's sad that I just killed an individual animal, but then I go to the restaurant and order shrimp scampi. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.

[Scuba_Dave]

I eat more shrimp, lobster, clams, etc in one year then I will kill in my tank in my lifetime
The ornamental fish we buy is food at many islands

I guess it depends upon the species.....if endangered

As far as captive breeding, some species that are raised now couldn't be. Xenia couldn't be kept in captivity, now it's a weed.
Until captive raised can make $$, it will be 2nd to profit.

I try to be very careful on what I buy.........

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Well, I eat seafood too, but I guess I see an ethical difference between feeding and ornamentation. Plus, the negative effects on natural reef populations is a concern for me. I'll readily admit I haven't researched this much. I was just trying to stir up a discussion.

[ab5ebdxer]

I dont think people who buy corals that they dont know will do well in a tank have a problem with ethics. Maybe they do not know that the coral is hard to keep but that does not make one unethical. The LFS owner who sales it knowing that the buyer is new and will not have success is the one with questionable ethics. Even then a LFS owner can not assess everyones hobby experience.

[kfig]

Although I have enjoyed this hobby, the guilt is there.

I am setting up an SPS only tank with aquacultured live rock.
All SPS corals will be aquacultured/frags.
Any fish will be tank raised.

However, to be successful I had to buy :
2 400watt lights
multiple pumps for circulation and skimmer
a chiller
RO/DI unit

This means I use alot of electricity and water. Not very good conservation wise. I estimate it will be like having a second kitchen in full use.

Nevertheless, I get immense pleasure from the beauty and the challenge. My kids are enjoying the process so far. They are learning some science and appreciation for marine life.

In having an all aquacultured tank I will have comfort to experiment with lighting and circulation parameters to minimize heat/water/electricity issues and hopefully minimze the guilt.

[dendronepthya]

I eat more shrimp, lobster, clams, etc in one year then I will kill in my tank in my lifetime
The ornamental fish we buy is food at many islands

Society to a large extent determines what is and what is not ethical treatment of animals. As Mud Shrimp Moe mentioned before, there is a different ethical standard between seafood caught for human consumption and ornamental fish and invertebrates sold as pets. Case in point, dogs are pets. If you mistreat or neglect a dog, you are in trouble with the authorities. In other parts of the world however, that same dog may come with a choice of sauce and an appetizer. It does not change the fact that dogs here in the U.S. are pets and as such impose a duty of care on their owners.

My problem with the hobby is really two-fold. Like everyone, I would like to see more propagation efforts in the industry. Up to this point, it has not been shown to be as profitable as wild collections. Still, I do see a bright future in it, and I applaud the efforts of the many that support aquaculture. I do not think it will impact the overall health of the reefs (which are by every indication declining), but will prevent this hobby from being a convenient scape goat.

My second issue with the hobby is the mentality of aquarium keepers. As in that dog example above, there is clearly a lower ethical standard for the treatment of fish and coral. How many times have you heard someone say, "Oh, it's just a fish, let's see if it lives?" With the amount of information that is available, people should research what they buy and strongly consider NOT packing their 29-gallon full of tangs. Yet, we see it all the time, and when things go bad, they fill it back up. In many ways, I would like to see an increase in the price of fish. I don't think people would so quickly dismiss a fish's health if they paid $150 for it.

[YoHo]

This is certainly not a hobby for the weak of heart.

We are impacted by every goldfish one at a county fair. every under gravel filter sold to a freshwater hobbiest. Every dead fish in a Petco tank. Other hobbies have the same issues, but nobody worries about the health of Bearded dragons in the wild.

I myself am between tanks at the moment, but my goal was and will be going forward to be as careful with the live stock I purchase as possible. Things like the sand trading that's going on right now and similar private aquaculture efforts are going to be the salvation of this hobby. And we hobbiests have had our influences on Marine fish keeping already with technologies such as the Berlin method.

What I'd like to see is more hobbiest level organizations on the scale of a GARF. For all it's faults, more organizations like them will be the best gift we can give to ourselves, future hobbiests and Oceans.

[johnpoole]

Bearded dragons.. reminds me of my ex-mother in law.. 90 percent of reefers i have known are by far the most responsible people i have ever known.. i'm not an expert on reefs or people but i am old.. you will not find a better overall group of people in any forum or in everyday live.. some lfs people and some reefers would bo better off as prison guards.. they are few and far between

[romunov]

How many times have you heard someone say, "Oh, it's just a fish, let's see if it lives?"

How many times have you heard some one say: "Oh, it's just a worm/snail..."?

[dendronepthya]

Never actually, what are you implying?

[romunov]

Snails and worms are animals as well. Most people might not care about them, but I do.

I imply that more snails alone die in this hobby than fish, yet no one is making a fuss about it. Not to mention worms that are actively hunted down and killed for being "ugly".

[dendronepthya]

I agree with that. It goes back to my original point though that we have different standards for different animals. Our social construct has determined there are lives that matter and lives that do not. That line moves though, and I would like it to first encompass ornamental fish into the "matters" category.

Aiptasia? not so much.

[RicksReefs]

Originally posted by dendronepthya
Aiptasia? not so much.

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by YoHo
going forward to be as careful with the live stock I purchase as possible.

I think the main problem is people buy fish like they buy "collections," not like they buy pets. If people "collected" mammals, I imagine posts like these:


NEWBIE1: "Help!! My mammal area has mice!! Are they bad?"

MAMMALKEEPER: "Yes! Mice are very bad! You need to get some cats to get rid of them. Cats eat mice!"




NEWBIE1: "Help! My cats died! I bought eight cats to get rid of my mice. The mice are all gone (thank god), but a week or so later my cats started disappearing."

FURRYFRIEND1: "Were you feeding them? If they ate all the mice they could have become hungry? Also what other animals are you keeping?"

NEWBIE1: "Well, I wasn't sure what to feed them. I figured they'd eat the mice but didn't really think after that. Oh, and I plan to keep a giraffe and some koala bears too."

MAMMALOVER: "How big is your mammal pen?"

NEWBIE1: "Standard suburban backyard. Probably 800 square feet."

MAMMALOVER: "I don't think that will be big enough for a giraffe."

NEWBIE1: "I think it will be. I have a friend with one and his pen is only 700 square feet. He's kept four of them off an on, in fact."

[ByteStalker]

In the past there has been an effort by various groups to ban the collection of ornamental fish and corals. When it has occurred many of the hobby magazines published studies and collected money to fight the legislation. They showed the Congressional Committees how we as a group (hobbyist) have advanced the understanding of coral propagation. How new observations and innovations had pushed the industry forward in terms of husbandry and research knowledge and how little impact we have compared to the commercial fishing industry. Then they showed how shrimp boats using its drag nets destroyed the habitats and ocean bottom to collect shrimp for the dinner table. When the nets were in the boat how many other animals were killed and tossed in order to get the shrimp we eat. The damage these boats do daily is huge and destroys the habitat permanently. They now have to go further for less. So I don’t worry as much about my hobby and what I collect. I do try to make a contribution based on my observations and experiences and don’t follow a flush it if it doesn’t fit (aiptasia an exception).

[dendronepthya]

ByteStalker,
Be careful when you draw comparisons between this hobby and more destructive industries. There are very different standards between industries when you actually do a balancing test weighing the costs and benefits. Comparing the reef aquarium trade to commercial fishing, international shipping, recreation cruises, etc. is a certain losing battle. Those are multi-billion dollar industries that employ millions and generate billions in tax revenue. They will always be able to get away with more than this hobby does.

[RamPuppy]

you know, I have often wondered if every person in this hobby kept up with something so basic as water changes, where we would be in regards to mortality rates and happy reefers?

I don't think newbs should see the level of 'advanced' as some mystical level of attainment, it's simple to get there:

Research and understand every organism you would like to purchase, if you can not provide properly for it, do not buy it, re-evaluate your setup and decide whether change is warranted or responsible. (this encompasses lighting, diet, habitat, so on)

Change your friggin water

it's an over simplification, but I don't think anyone would deny taking those attitudes to heart would reshape the hobby.

[Shoestring Reefer]

Originally posted by RamPuppy
Change your friggin water

I slack on that now and then.

I know of people who throw out xenia if no one wants it, when the LFS doesn't want any more. Bristle worms and pods are food for fish. Maybe we should seperate the fish and live rock?

Some people keep mollies in their tank, and consider the molly fry a snack for the fish and corals. Just like peppermint shrimp.

[The Punisher]

I do think it's a tough line to define as far as what is right or wrong. The aiptasia thing is one of those things that makes that line even more confusing. The same people who don't think it's right to keep tangs in small tanks, even if they appear healthy, have no problem killing 10's or 100's of aiptasia, just because they are thought of as pests. The same goes for flatworms or any other "pest" that we encounter in our tanks. What makes those anemones or flatworms lives any different than a tang? FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with killing aiptasia, I'm just pointing out the fact that a lot of these discussions appear somewhat hypocritical. It's a tough thing to discuss to an end, and I just try to do what seems right to me with the available knowledge of whatever it is I'm working with.

[mmd]

so, i should stop burying cats up to their necks in my back yard ?

[Mud Shrimp Moe]

Originally posted by The Punisher
What makes those anemones or flatworms lives any different than a tang?

On a metaphysical level, perhaps nothing. But on an environmental and practical level, the difference is that Tangs are almost 100% caught in the wild and imported for captivity while aiptasia has an incredible ability to propogate (and propogate and propogate, etc) in captivity.

So metaphysics aside, Tangs are just a lot rarer resource and deserve responsible treatment.

[Shoestring Reefer]

To add to Mud Shrimp Moe's point, adding aptasia and flatworms in our tanks have little to no impact on their natural habitat. Some people would say the same of xenia, I guess.

mmd- If it's heads up, you should stop it. Nothing worse than being kept awake all night by a screaming cat half-buried in someone's yard. Now, if it's heads down, that's a different matter...

[mmd]

So mud shrimp moe "So metaphysics aside, Tangs are just a lot rarer resource and deserve responsible treatment." does that mean we should treat a blue eyed blonde better than a brown eyed brunette as they are rarer.

[jjjimmy]

I still find it absolutely amazing how every one believes that their ethics and morals apply to the rest of the world. Each of us as individuals have had different life experiences that lead us to feel and believe in our own way and no other individual has the right to tell us to think or believe in any other way.

Please, this is a hobby and just that a hobby, can't we keep our own ethics and morals to ourselves?

Jimmy