Lets here about your over stocked tank

[whosjohnny]

Years ago, I love to crowd my tank to get the maximum # of fish possible. However, years go by, I value the idea of quality of life and I went with the extreme. A large tank, stock by 1 tang with support cast. I love that feeling of "LUXURY" mansion, with Lord of the house and have all the little servants cleaning the tank and be supporting cast.

[phil519]

hmmm double post.

[phil519]

I’m sorry I don’t lurk in this forum more often – this discussion is interesting! I hope all of you will bear with my comments…Selgado – not picking on ya – just wanted to provide some comments that hopefully will be taken as “further discussion�!

Originally posted by selgado
I hear people say all the time "that fish must have xx gallon tank to be happy." How do you know? Did the fish sit on the edge of its tank and tell you this?

Actually, I speak whale. Didn't they tell you that?

Originally posted by selgado
I want to get at the very heart of what deciding factors we use to determine weather an organism is happy...(snip) What is that magical rule that we as reefkeepers need to grasp to be deemed "responsible?"

Obviously there is no magical rule. While stating "so and so fish requires XX size tank" is obviously an opinion, one can also turn the tables and say that "I keep such and such fish in a 10 gallon and it works fine" to be an opinion as well...yes?

I believe if we were to break it down to basics - a larger tank will generally provide a more stable environment for the fish that belong in that small/medium/large section of reef in that big ocean. I think arguing that a 120 or a 200 or a 300 gallon tank is too big/too small is splitting hairs. However - most new hobbyists deal exclusively in the 10~29~55~75 gallon range. While responsible reefkeeping needs to be applied at all levels/all sizes – I agree with Lee that the stocking of a tank should tend to err on the conservative side when dealing with new hobbyists.

Can a fish (even a tang) be kept in those size tanks? The answer is obviously of course. I think we all know fish can be kept in any size tank reasonably. The question we struggle with is "should the fish be kept in XX size tank"?

With these smaller tanks, is there a great chance of losses due to stress/aggression/poor water quality? Generally speaking the answer is yes. Obviously a poor maintenance schedule or overcrowding in a 120 tank can result in similar problems. However it's more likely a new hobbyist is involved in smaller tanks and more likely to go out and buy that cute 1 inch hippo tang. I base this strictly on the number of times you see a thread saying “Can I have a tang in a XX size tank� (replace XX with 55 or smaller) in the new hobbyist forum. Opinions fly (from both sides) and there is such a visceral response that it can be difficult to hold a thoughtful discussion.

Anyway - I hope I've shared a reasonable presentation as to why we should try and avoid overstocking a tank. Still it's difficult to assess easily without getting the context and full picture of the tank in question. It's one thing for someone (not saying you selgado) to share that they have a "full" tank and here's how it's done. It's a completely different story if you believe you've overstocked your tank and are bragging about it just because "you can do it".

[selgado]

Originally posted by phil519
Opinions fly (from both sides) and there is such a visceral response that it can be difficult to hold a thoughtful discussion. [/B]

Very true. We, as a hobby, need to learn a lot more. Learning usually stops happening when people start firing half though-out responses back and forth at each other.

But, I digress. Thanks for the "though food!"

[Samper]

I keep a 20 gallon nano and the guy who got me into this hobby had me so overstocked it wasn't even funny and this was the first day I had it set up. Thank god I got connected with some people who squared me away but precious lives and money were thrown away needlessly during the whole process.

So that time is passed but I still keep the nano.
Fish occupants are as follows.
1. Neocirrhites armatus
2. Premnas biaculeatus


Some might say that #1 on my list isn't appropriate but I disagree and anyone with that opinion who has ever seen my system has taken back that remark. I have provided the best possible environment that I can all the while knowing that I'll never have anything close to what mother nature accomplishes. You know I understand that if you're new to the hobby you want the pretty things but over time, provided you take your time and do it right you will notice much more than the colors, shapes and sizes..... If you take the time to research the species you keep many of you with these severly overstocked systems would be shocked at the natural ranges and behaviors of your fish....but you will never get to see their behaviors in such systems. Think about it guys and try to do the right thing. Personalities and more natural behaviors show up when you do things to the best of your ability and it's much more of an experience then the "hey look at my pretty fish" remarks. I will never ever overstock fish in a system ever again because it's so rewarding not to.

Corals are another story but I'm getting that habit under control also................

[shawnaus17]

I don't know if this is like you tank but all my fish has found a spot and guard it and if someone comes in they hide and peek their heads out. I think that as long as i am providing a predator free envirment as well as a cleany envirment and you really dont over do it i think that in my eyes the fish will be happy

[Biscutz]

My list of fish that have been with me for almost 3 yrs:

1 Purple Tang
1 Hippo Tang
2 occelaris clowns (pair)
1 Flame Hawk
1 Bicolor Blenny
1 Mandarine
1 Flameback Pygmy
1 Zebra Eel

My last fish was added about a year ago and it was the pygmy angel, I have not lost a fish in almost 2 years. My experiences have been positive in my 100g reef because of my tank husbandry practices, quarantining both new fish and new corals and my personal aquascape. I have dozens of tunnels and overhangs that my fish dive into for escape, usually from a passing person, whenever they feel the need to "get away". Many people frown on keeping tangs in the size tank that I have, but I believe that their quality of life is equaled to the quality of the water that they swim and live in. The eel is the only fish that I am considering a new tank for solely for the reason that he keeps knocking over my corals. Other than that his bio load is very low seeing that he only eats about once a week because of their low metabolisms. I just thought that I would share my experiences on this subject.

[jimdogg187]

In my 125 gallon FOWRL I have:

adult emp angel
clown trigger
spiny box fish
miniatus grouper
zebra moray
black edge moray

My emp is new and already runs the tank with athourity. My nitrates are around 10-15 ppm.

[AeroD79]

in my 55gal tank reef tank I have

one damsel
pair of percula clowns
midas blenny
flasher wrasse
mandarin goby
firefish
royal gramma

Running on AquaC EV-120, 24/7 light fuge, 20gal sump. I overskimm and replace water usually 5gallons over the week. NO3 hasnt reached greater than 5ppm.

[Shoestring Reefer]

In my 125 I have:

A pair of clowns
A pajama cardinal

[Biscutz]

Originally posted by Shoestring Reefer
In my 125 I have:

A pair of clowns
A pajama cardinal

Way to many fish man, take at least 2 of them out.

[selgado]

Originally posted by Biscutz
Way to many fish man, take at least 2 of them out.

[JtoZ116]

ok after all of this arguing lets see whats going to happen.......NOTHING!

nobody is going to take anything out of their overly stocked tank....or nothing like that. evryone is going to go about thier lives saying that all thier livestock is fine....yata yata yata

hopefully maybe some people will get some sense knocked into their stubborn heads and realize that overstocking your tank can lead to long term effects, but wateva

[Shoestring Reefer]

Actually, it's making me think...

[VolitanLioness]

ok after all of this arguing lets see whats going to happen.......NOTHING!

OK Did I miss some thing in this thread?

Like the Arguing!

Kaye

[selgado]

Originally posted by Specialk
OK Did I miss some thing in this thread?

Like the Arguing!

Kaye

Me too. I think I'll go back and re-read the thread.

Some people like instant gratification. Unless people change at the drop of a hat, controlling type people can't handle it. The whole premise of this forum is to facilitate discussion amongst hobbyists about what works for them. To get people to think. Not to ostracize people who happen to disagree or have a different way of doing things.

[Broodingwolf]

Hey I'd like to raise my hand here and say this discussion opened my eyes. Not this particular debate mind you, but others like it when I frst started getting inot the hobby for myself. My father was really into fish tanks when I was a kid during the 70s/80s.. he had a tank that was not suitable for the inhabitants (20 g with pleco, oscars etc) Once I read more, I realized this is not ok, that fish DO grow, and its cruel to do that to them. I stock responsibly with all my tanks. My FW may be a little heavily stocked (20g with 2 otto, 7 rasboras, 2 sparkling gourami and a platy) but I keep up with water changes, and its only on the heavy side with the per inch rule, everyone seems to have enough room due to different swimming styles. My SW also a 20, only has a clown and a royal gramma. The stocking list I'm coming up with for my 75 is also carefully being constructed based off of the fishes needs. Anways, I'd like to say, these things DO change minds.

[JtoZ116]

im sry i didnt mean literally arguing

im just trying to say that most people will do what they wanna hear...u know wat i mean.

[Ms. K]

AeroD79, how's your mandarin doing? I want to put a mandarin in my 55 gallon but I'm going to wait until Christmas this year because I want to let my tank mature for about a year before I add it. I see that you started your tank in November and I was just curious to hear what your experience has been with the mandarin and how long you have had it?

In keeping with the theme, I currently have a pair of false percs and a bangaii cardinal in the 55. I will be adding another bangaii in a few weeks, but I think that will be it until the mandarin comes.

[Biscutz]

I have had a mandarin in my tank now for almost a year and a half, and I would honestly say that I will not buy one again. He has been slowly getting thinner and thinner over time and I have countless pods in my tank. He has sight only in one eye, but he's been like that for at least a year. I'm not sure if its affecting him now more than before, but I hate watching him wasting away. Just make sure your pod level is high before you attempt one of these guys.

[Ms. K]

I'm trying a lot of different things, and my tank will have been running for about 11, almost 12, months if I get the mandarin at Christmas. I'm planning the tank around him, so I'm trying not to get any other fish that eat a lot of pods and I'm also sticking to a low bioload of smaller, less agressive fish. I'll have five fish total I think.

[bigbenji]

Well, at least this thread has opened some eyes. I'm going to use it to ask about how you would stock a 55g. I'm finally getting a bigger tank, and don't want to overstock it. However, I would like to keep just a few, BIG fish. I say big as in bigger than my false perc and yellow-headed jawfish in my little 20g.

[selgado]

Originally posted by Ms. K
I'm trying a lot of different things, and my tank will have been running for about 11, almost 12, months if I get the mandarin at Christmas. I'm planning the tank around him, so I'm trying not to get any other fish that eat a lot of pods and I'm also sticking to a low bioload of smaller, less agressive fish. I'll have five fish total I think.

Have you guys heard what Marc Levenson does for his mandarins?
Check this out Melev's Mandarine Diner . It's pretty interesting.

[kabboord]

I've got a 90 Gallon Reef with a yellow tang, a maroon clown, and a flame angel. They seem to be the happiest fish alive. A lot of people don't appreciate how important it is to have a copacetic tank full of happy fishes. Makes everything go much smoother. I figure my fish bring me so much happiness, I should atleast afford them a little space

[stellablu]

I have a 20g long with the following fish...

-Green Clown Goby
-Ocellaris Clownfish (currently an 1", I plan to put him in a larger tank once he grows a bit and pair him up with a black & white)
-Yellow Clown Goby
-Rusty Clown Goby
-Black Clown Goby
-Grey Clown Goby (unknown common name, but he's not a black)
Scooter Blenny (also moving with ocellaris)
-Black Sailfin Blenny

The clown gobies have a low bioload and don't require as much swimming room as say a chromis because they perch most of the time, except my Yellow likes to swim about often. All my other fish are juveniles around 1". I don't have any aggression problems, everyone has their own spots and even though the black and grey gobies are similiar in appearance they don't fight at all.

How about this...how do you know when you're maxed out on inverts?

I have all sorts of inverts; pink serpant star, arrow crab, coral banded shrimp, two different types of pistol shrimp, two bumblebee snails, currently 30 or so vibex snails (I've been trading them out slowly for frags), three nerites, seven or so turbos, three zebra hermits, five blue leg hermits, four red leg hermits, about fifteen tiny white clams, five assorted nudibranches, a 1/2" mantis in my fuge, handful of tiny stars, three 1" horseshoe crabs (being traded out, as well) and I'm probably leaving someone out. Some odd corals here and there.

I'm running a Viaqua Multiskimmer, 170 Biowheel, two powerheads. I have somewhere between 25-30 lbs of LR, all small pieces to make nooks and crannies for hiding and privacy if desired. I feed a variety of frozen, live, freeze-dried, and pellet food which everyone gets their share of. I take my time feeding them to make sure each individual fish gets his share, and there is never dispute over who eats what. My clean-up crew and newly acquired population of bristle worms take care of any excess food my fish miss.

I'm looking into a sump later down the road to add more water volume, but it won't be until I move.