I defy any hobbyist to prove me wrong

[Louis Z]

That SW hobbyists are too dumb to breed SW fish. Yes anemone fish have been bred. How long ago was it when it was actually done and what other species have we progressed on? Yes the sps reefers will say look at what we have done. Now is not the time to sit on your rear end, all of you have spent thousands of $ and have the ultimate environment to breed fish. Why dont we breed fish? Are we consumed by our desire to have a pretty tank? I pose this challenge not to argue but to get everyones attention. I see 35000 posts to this Reef forum yet almost nil on the captive breeders forum. Well you might say that you have nothing to add- hard to believe that someone hasnt noticed anything going on about their tank in the way of breeding. It could be just the simple observation of courtship or seeing the differences between the male and female. My wish is to have threads started about different species Both genus/species name in addition to the most common name included in the title so that when someone does a search we can all see one big thread where we can obtain observances. Its been done before - I see the threads on bluespotted jawfish, mandarinfish, bangaii cardinals, anemonefish, gobies. We as a hobby have a lot of funding for this endeavor - our own pocket money. How many people on this BB (13,000+) , how many other BBs? If everyone could pick just one species to study/work with we could solve our own problems of destroying the reef, fish and paying super high costs( for fish that may have been caught in a harmful manner). Anyone can attack my statements - thats fine. Anyone can attack me - thats fine too. But the problem still exists. Thanks Louis Z.

[Wazzel]

Little on edge??? As far as breeding fish, my LFS sells, Tangs, Butterflies, Triggers, Bangii, Clowns that are tank bred and raised. I personally would like to be able to breed a pair of anything. Some species are not great choises because of there brreding methods esp the free spawners. Mechanical filtration plays hell on the eggs. This of course does not mean it can not be done. I have read of hobbiest raising clown and bangii with alot of success. Having read your post over, what are you planning to breed?

[150reef]

Good points Louis, I know I am and always have been interested in breeding...In fact I started my reef/fish tank in hope that my corals will grow and spread on their own....It just takes time and work...I am almost there with my tank but I still have a few other issues to work out before I go down those roads....And when I do, I am sure to have plenty of posts with questioins or info I may have found....I am sure other reefers are in my same position...This is a hobby and I only have so much time to spend doing research and maintaining my tank/livestock....My first priority is to make sure the livestock I have lives and grows....Once I have a good handle on my tank/parameters/livestock, then I can start spending time on possibly setting up another tank for breeding....I have bubble tip anemones that have split 3 times over the past 3 years, but I also have other corals that I am struggling to keep alive because I just don't have them in the right place in my tank, or not enough light, or not enough trace elements, or.....You know the list goes on and on.....

[jim norris]

LouisZ,
WOW!!! I can interject with a comment on tridacna clams. There is a huge success going on with these wonderful creatures. And there is a fellow RC member who as we speak has succesfully spawned clams, and has now for over 3 months kept baby clams alive. I think the major reason for the success of the clams is cost. The cost factor in collecting wild clams now VS farm grown clams is in favor of the farm grown clams.
Jim





www.tanku.net

[Wilafur]

speaking for myself:

the reason i do not breed fish is that i have NO TIME to adequately rear the fry.

[coralite]

Louis, how many fish have you bred? Did you know that all clownfish have specific hatch, larval, and post larval requirements?
Raising gold stripe maroons is different from raising regular maroons. How long have you been in the hobby? what's the longest that you've kept a fish? Have you ever even read a detailed article on raising SW fish besides banggaiis? I don't think you have any idea what is truly involved and though your intentions are good, I don't think you are in any position to acuse anyone here. I am usually the first to whip someone w/ my conservation ethics but the way you are approaching the issue is almost out of line, you're looking at it. Please read Martin Moe's Breeding The Orchid Dottyback and then return w/ a reply.

[jjharrisx4]

Ok...so the sick side of me says "I haven't found a fish that's my type yet :-)"

Really though...I've had mandarin's spawn, but no fry. Bummer!

[Pandora]

Louis, while I suspect the purpose of your post was to get people riled up and maybe jump on you (fishing for insults? hehe)... I do see you have some decent points that I agree with (and some I don't entirely). We in the hobby do have funding and time, and I guess you could call many of the aesthetic pursuits for personal reefs mostly just selfish endeavers.

However, interest is what leads to education. How do public aquariums raise so much money for conservation and breeding projects, after all? It starts with inspiring people by the natural beauty of the fauna we see, which pushes some of us to take more action and find out how to contribute money, time, etc. I have worked in ecology research myself and come on RC sometimes just to ask questions for my own curiosity on certain species; I know I'm not the only one. While I think you make valid points in bringing some of this to peoples' attention... I don't think you should expect everyone to hop on the next boat to the Red Sea to study coral bleaching trends or overfishing in the S Pacific. Everyone should contribute what they can.

We also have to be realistic that not every species' breeding requirements are even duplicatable in the average home reef tank (I am saying even if we know their exact needs)--does this necessarily mean that keeping captive bred fish in relative comfort wrong, if we couldn't breed them personally at home? This would rule out half the fish we keep.

On that vein, I agree with aquafresh's milder approach. Yes, reefing may have both an overall negative and positive impact on the environment at large, but hopefully that trend is getting heavier on the positive end these days, with how conscientious the average reefer is nowadays. Yes, we first spend the money for their beauty, but hopefully learn something along the way, too. Some of us will learn and contribute more than others, but it raises awareness in general--and that is never a bad thing.

[Louis Z]

I realize there are success stories and I cant wait to read each one. My intention was not to exclude them but put more of all the hobbyists directed toward a goal. I did this thread because its 4th of July weekend where everyone will visit this bb. Like I said I know I will have many attacks. I have been researching for about 2 years about breeding all types of fish- Yes the obstacles are high. Yes I have read Martin Moes book yet how long ago was that written. There is more information outthere now than ever before. Alot of the info on breeding is directed to aquaculture of food fish - many of this may transfer to our own objectives. Yes many people dont have the time to go thru all the steps in order to raise larvae. But we as a group stand and observe our reefs day in and day out and simple observances may lead to a collective breakthrough. Thanks Louis Z.

[eddie]

wow
whats up with that
read breeding the orchid dottyback by martin moe
besides most fish arnt bred in even close to reef type enviroments
he also talks about shimp rearing
what about tank raised conchs
and some snails

[eddie]

sorry i see you read that

[esmithiii]

The issue is raising the fry. I recently read Joyce D. Wilkerson's clownfishes and was amazed at the effort required. One day, possibly this fall or next year, I plan on setting up a rotifer culturing system in my garage. That is only one part of raising the fry.

I have three yellow damsels that have bred. I see the fry often in my tank at night. Right now, they serve as a source of food for other organisms in the tank. I wanted to raise them, but to get the proper rotifer density in my display aquarium would be near impossible (without trashing the display aquarium, that is...) Setting up another tank right now would not be good for my marriage, and getting the fry out of the display aquarium is no easy task in and of itself.

Just my $.02

Wazzel- I did not know that any tangs had been successfully bred, with the exception of Zeebrasoma flavescens in the waikiki aquarium last year (or was it the year before?) I know that there are cases of captive reared tangs, but not captive bred. Can you provide the species that they are breeding?



Ernie

[eddie]

first i think we need to learn to rear the proper diet for the many dif species fwiw
that would be the first step
id love to rear flame angels

[turtlespd]

Breeding fish is a whold new ball game. I would have to set up a tank just for them and must raise fry and all that good stuff..nah not for me. I have thougt about breeding angels but without the right kind of food it has been proven it is impossible. Although a few people have been successfull they will not tell you what tehy are feeding the fry..so if you got that much time on your hands then go for it but many people dont. I my self have time but i rateher mess around with my reef and destroy it..

Paul

[naka]

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92208

They are doing great! I'll post some pics over the holiday.

[esmithiii]

Naka- Nice M3 in your sig line. Where did you get the photo?e

Ernie

[manderx]

have you checked out the breeders registry?

[naka]

I got the picture from Roadfly.com (E46 forum). Thanks!

[Louis Z]

This what I am looking for - average hobbyists to work toward solving breeding problems. I read some negative responses - how hard it is, no time, not the right environment, no info on the food. All the negatives are true. I only put the dumb in my statement to get everyones attention. I realize that the hobby would not be where it is without alot of trial/error, hard work, and problem solving. Although I did see positive responses - some are trying, some hope to raise live food, some have breeding fish, some have invertebrates that spawn(great live food). This is what I am looking for to be put in the breeding forum. I am hoping that more people visit this forum as much as they visit The reef forum. I see in many threads where someone sees their fish are eating something in particular- ie. tangs/ morish idol eating encrusting algae and sponges, butterflies eating small tube worms,all this is live food to condition the breeders. I also see that many people have fish in spawning behavior. All this is valuable information that should be noted/recorded no matter how trivial it sounds. As for the breeders registry - I do visit it often but how many others routinely look at it or contribute to it. And now for the truth about me - I have no saltwater tanks, I have not bred any saltwater fish, I have not raised any live food. 2 years ago I wanted to switch to SW from FW. I started looking at cephalopods and their food requirement. The problems about feeding plankton to planktonic larvae was my driving force. And not finding adequate answers i realized how in the dark we still are. All my time was concentrated on researching and finding free information about live food. I havent had the time to dabble with the actual process. I just joined this BB and reefs.org in April and see alot of great info on the practical day in and day out management of SW aquariums. So with this BB info I have started the process of keeping a tank, and process of raising live foods. But as I research which fish to start breeding I see very little info towards pairing, spawning and raising larvae - I hope this changes. Thanks Louis Z.

[150reef]

Louis, I like your occupation, dreamer.......
Now your contradicting your previous statements a bit.....

"you wanted to get everyone's attention".....

Well, Now you got it.....Sounds like maybe all
you really wanted was attention because you could
not get any in another forum....

Oh, and all those things you just called negative....Hard work, time, money, research, that other reefers have brought up.....
They are not negative at all...In fact, for us "non-dreamers" those things are all reality....And until you see reality, you are not going to accomplish much.....Speaking of accomplishing things, why don't you enlighten us all on "what you researched" about food and breeding over the past two years without a tank....See its easy for people just to ask questions in the forums hoping to get answers.....That is the easy way out, and sounds like your upset because you could not get answers to your questions in other forums....Well, looks like you might just have to do some of that negative stuff, like spend time, money, and do more valuable research to find the answers your looking for.

[Anemone]

As another said, the Breeders' Registry is exactly what you are looking for.

Kevin

[Louis Z]

150 I am not upset. My objective was to research as much as I could before jumping in and doing the practical side. I always have known to read before I get anything. I am starting to address these issues. I am not looking for the attention personally but for the problem at hand. Like I said the negatives are true (to the problem). I have the same negatives to work with as the rest- time , money, environment. I am just begining and most of the BB is so advanced already they have a huge headstart. As for dreaming I put that in my occupation on purpose to look way down the road for the hobby- I see it in FW where its a race to breed and raise larvae yet i dont see that it is on everyones mind to do so in SW. As for the easy way out -I wouldnt have spent as much time following all sorts of leads on the WWW. I have never been upset about not receiving any answers to my questions for I realize they may not be there. As for the research I plan on putting info as we go into the breeders forum. I have already started in helping problem solve. I put all my cards out on the table for everyone to see where I am. Yes you can be negative towards me - thats allright . Just reread my previous messages on how I hope everyone can contribute to the breeding forum. Thanks Louis Z.

[Pumba]

Louis z-
Not only is raising the fry a difficult task but just getting the fish, any fish to breed.
I know many wrasses for example spawn in large groups or harems or maybe 20 fish or more. Imagine the size tank your would need for 20+ 10 inch wrasses? Not only that, but who would want such a large tank for just 20 fish?

Tangs I think spawn under the same circumstances. What size tank would you need for 20+ Blue or Sailfin tangs?
What about grow out? At a guess, 20 tangs might produce say, 1500 fertile eggs each. If even that 1500 were to survive, where, besides some large public aquaria, are you going to raise 1500 tangs?

After all that, try doing it cheaper than what the collectors can.
While collected fish are available cheaper than tank raised fish, 90% of people are going to take the cheaper option, regardless of what the effct on the environment it has.

Remember- the marine hobby is in it infancy. It's the freshwater hobby 50-80 yrs ago. 50 years ago breeding freshwater angels was the "holy grail", now literally millions are produced each week around the world.
Give it time, patience and a damn lot of money!

Matt

[fishpoo]

i see your point, but considering the average size tank an hobbiest has in his home, i don't see much breeding possible.

[Frick-n-Frags]

What if i don't give a flying Fish about fish?
I spend all of my time and resources trying to learn the intricacies of water chemistry, physical environment, food etc for keeping, growing and coloring of my corals? I also have been attempting to distill out a natural system to see what a real balance in a captive system is. I have been working on these goals for 10+ years, pouring a lot of my resources into this difficult endeaver.
So why do I and every other hobbiest have to breed fish?? I think those of us who beat on the reef lighting, filtration and feeding issues today are doing the groundbreaking work that will enable the breeding or raising of really tough stuff once this whole thing gets dialled in.

All I have to say is: You better be up to your eyeballs in some kind of breeding endeavors to be helping the cause. Talk is cheap, but I do appreciate your attitude. So what fish are you going to breed?

I think by-and-large, once people get through the initial confusion, they work hard for the success of every aspect of their reef. And we would all like to see everything captively propagated.

Some people really have situations where they just don't have the spare resources (ie time, money, bkgnd knowlege, lab training or whatever else it takes to gear up a hard core biology experiment)so i don't think you can allude to that as a cheap excuse.
Some lady at the CSEA meeting frag workshop was asking my son to help her break her "plant" (a tan Montipora digitata plant ) dang it, she has a tough enough row to hoe and you feel she should be breeding fish?

BTW, good thought provoking thread, even the title got me hooked in