DSB Critters

[FreddyC]

I deepened my sand bed to 2 inches in the main 180 gallon tank and added 8 inch deep bed in the 40 gallon sump. However my Nitrates are still high 40-100 ppm depending on the test kit. (same kit--Red Sea--2 ways of testing) I think the problem is too few critter stirring the sand. Any suggestions on what I should get, and where to order?

[Randy V]

Two inches will not get you much if any denitrification in my experience. Does the entire 40g sump have an 8 inch sand bed? How long has it been set up?

You may not have enough dsb in the 40g to accomodate the nitrate in the water column depending on the bioload, how effectively you skim, and how much you feed. The bed may also not be old enough. It doesn't denitrify over night. Just some things to think about.

I have purchased detrivore kits from both ipsf.com and inland aquatics. I particularly like the mud/live sand, the terebellid (spaghetti) worms, and the bristle worms. You may already have these worms in your main tank and you can transfer some. You need to get some live sand/mud though because there are many types of polychetes and other infauna that are primarily found in that substrate. Good luck.

[espi360]

Two inches should be fine. I run 2-3 inches in a slope on my tanks, but I still use plennumns. 8 INCHES ! HOLLY SHEIATH ! Id be more worried about sulfide gasses . 4 - 5 inches should be more than enough O2 will penetrate only to around 3 inches. As far as anaerobic bacteria living that deep, sure, but I am not posetive that the water is circulating that deep. critters really dont affect the nitrates, only bacteria 99.9% of the time.

[Randy V]

Well, if O2 penetrates to 3" then why would 2 inches be fine for denitrification? I think you need to study up on current dsb thinking espi. With the activity of adequate sandbed infauna water will indeed circulate to lower layers in an 8 inch dsb. I am sure that is why the poster asked the question. I doubt very much that he thinks critters will consume the nitrates directly.

[FreddyC]

I do have some worms and other fauna in my main tank. That is why I only added 1 inch of new sand. I didn't want to suffocate them. I plan on adding another inch real soon. I skim and feed pretty heavily and my 8 inch DSB in the sump covers the entire 40 gallons with calerpa on top in about 4 inches of water as a refugium. I can also add more sand to a second chamber in the sump probably 1 foot x 2 feet in area, but again I think I need the critters to stir the sand---they obviously don't consume the nitrate. Thanks for replying.

[espi360]

I understand fully about dsb and current thinking is popular that the deeper the better. I however believe and have seen contrary.
As for what I mentioned about 3 inches of o2 penetration, the top 1 and a 1/4 inch is O2 rich, the lover is signifigantly decreased.
Liverock has much more internal surface area that we dont see that anaerobic bacteria lives in. dense liverock is highly benificial to a tank as long as it is porous enough to support the bacteria.
In not saying 8 inches wont work, Just that it is over kill. Id like for you to keep a good record of the tanks nitrients and test a lot of stuff.. and also to check sedement cementation after a few months.. Just wanting to help.... ttyl

[Randy V]

Espi, you say O2 penetrates to 3 inches but 2 inch depth supports anaerobic bacteria. You say that dense liverock is highly beneficial as long as it's porous. I'm glad YOU understand what you mean. Because those appear to be contradictory statements that many people might find confusing.

Luckily, ReefCentral has an expert forum where this topic is discussed quite often. FreddyC can do a search there and get all the info he needs.

[espi360]

If you compare weight to density ratios of live rock there is a huge differance depending on the type of rock. Caribian Aquacultured rock is porous but has a near 89 % solid internal matrix that never gets water or O2, and rarely bacteria are supported. Where as Blue Ridge or Shelf rock and even staghorn to a degree has a tightly woven internal matrix that is dense, but will allow for bacteria to live within it and be supplied with oxygen depraved water to flow even though it is less than 1/2 inch thick at times and has an Anoxic core. O2 is on a Gradient Sliding Scale of absorbtion, or a level of saturation/richness and it is exponential to depth and penetration which is directly linked to the type of substrate. In thighly packed sand, the O2 may go only 1/2 inch untill it drops off signifigantly (hence oolitic sand) or if using larger (special grade reef floor and reef rubble) pieces it may penetrate to 3 or more inches......
If it is too confusing for you Randy, then perhaps Sprung or Daebeck can explain it to you... this is the only Way I can explain it to u in layments terms with-out going
"Lab Coat on you" Dont flame me because you dont understand, perhaps you just are not making the connection to what im saying.... or did you just want to argue in some one elses thread?

[Randy V]

Espi, it was probably your english that I was having problems with. The posters question was about increasing depth of sand. I thought you were saying that a 2 inch deep sand bed would reduce his nitrates. That is what the poster asked about.

A two inch deep sand bed has minimal, if any, ability to reduce nitrates in my experience. I am not talking about live rock. I am not talking about plenums (per your private message). And the poster didn't ask about that either. We're talking about sand beds here. And we're trying to be helpful. Not confusing.

[Hippity dippity]

OK, this is what I get from reading the thread. Espi said 2 inches was fine, randy you seem to disagree. Why? Does it say anywhere that having the 2 inches was supposed to succeed in reducing nitrates? I bet there are many out there with no substrate at all, so in the scheme of things, 2 inches would be just dandy. Espi also said he uses 2-3 inches inches, but in conjunction with a plenum. The thread starter has already said he put an 8 inch bed in his sump. I'm guessing the 8 inches is to help with denitrification.

The live rock also makes sense to me. Dense live rock is fine as well as long as it is porous enough to support enough bacteria to filter the tank. Fiji live rock is dense afterall no? It might not be as dense as other rock, but it does have a density.

Espi might have a round about way of saying things, but IME they make perfect sense if you take the time to read them instead of jumping to criticism.

[Hippity dippity]

LOL, looks like we posted at the same time. Glad that's cleared up and now the original poster can get some help.

BTW, sand stirrers are not going to help you with your nitrate consumption. You'll need to check other factors such as bio load and nutrient input.

[espi360]

I replied about my experience with it. Imerely gave some background so you would know I wasnt quoting my sucess with denitrification in 2 inches, I WAS saying that the set up he has with 2 inches in the tank and the 8 (4-5 I recommended) in the sump would be sufficent. As far as the live rock comment, you posed the Question about density... I shared the knowledge.
ttyl

[slimytadpole]

A DSB 4" or so will end up doing the vast majority or the nitrate reduction in tank, provided it is a fine oolitic (sugar-sized) sand. In fact, the surface area of the sand is so much that the live rock's contribution to nitrate reduction will get lost in the noise.

As to the original question: yes, one can stick a DSB in the sump, to reduce the need for a DSB in the main tank. The problem that may come about is that the ratio of tank-size to sump-size may be a factor. For example, you can't stick a 10 gallon sump with a DSB on a 300 galllon tank and expect it to work. I don't know if a 40 gallon tank's DSB will compensate for a 180G tank.

What you need to do is tell us how old the tank is, how many fish you have (you shouldn't really have any with the amount of nitrates you have) and how much live rock you have. If it is a new tank, nitrates in the 40+ range aren't out of the ordinary. Mine were that high for the first month.

[Randy V]

Talk about not reading a thread before posting a reply:

Originally posted by Hippity dippity
BTW, sand stirrers are not going to help you with your nitrate consumption.

Originally posted by FreddyC
but again I think I need the critters to stir the sand---they obviously don't consume the nitrate.

It's a little insulting to FreddyC to imply that he thinks sandbed infauna consume nitrates. Plus he specifically said that he didn't.

When someone tells you he increased his bed depth to two inches in the main and added a dsb in the sump but his nitrates are still 40-100ppm, he is telling you what he has done so far in order to reduce those nitrates. For benefit of Hippity Dippity, the higher end of those levels are problematic for corals.

Originally posted by Hippity dippity #1
Does it say anywhere that having the 2 inches was supposed to succeed in reducing nitrates?

I'd say that's a pretty safe assumption. If the assumption is incorrect the original poster will come in and clarify.

Let's give the poster some credit. He knows that anaerobic layers can help reduce nitrates, and he clearly wants and needs to reduce nitrates. He also knows that deep beds can harden and become problematic unless they are stirred. He knows you can do that with sufficient infauna. He asked for suggestions of what to get and where.

I answered his questions in my first post. I tried to correct what I thought was incorrect information in a subsequent post. I am sorry that some of you took offense. Espy and I discussed this at length via pm and we have no issues with each other. SlimyTadpole knows what he's talking about. I'll let hippity dippity's combined comments speak for themselves.

Peace.

[Hippity dippity]

I edited my post....

Nevermind, I'll save my urine for a bigger and better match.

But in any event....you're wrong. PM me for details

[FreddyC]

The tank is 5 years old. I have about 9 fish all told, and I know my nitrates are way high. I am hoping the DSB in the sump will be sufficient to lower the nitrates when the infauna stirs it up enough. I really don't want to make the bed in my main tank deeper than 3" because I will start covering up corals on the bottom. By the way, I haven't purchased any fish or corals in the past 6 months because I want to get this nitrate problem under control. I will be ordering from Inland Aqautics and IPSF to work on the fauna. Thanks for the advice.......stay cool. FreddyC

[balakoth]

Great Example of why posting on this board is intimidating. Your a complete *** RandyV. Try some constructive critisim instead of your hard nose flaming, maybe then people would learn with a better understanding, instead of trying to decifer all your sarcasim.

Just rediculous.

I admire alot of you for being able to keep your cool around here, some of you need to grow up and learn to be helpfull, not hatefull.

[Randy V]

There was no sarcasm in my original reply balakoth, or whatever your name is. People took offense at my trying to correct some misinformation that was posted subsequently. It is amazing how third parties who were not involved in the exchange and who offered no information to the original poster feel the necessity to chime in with their two bit comments. Makes me laugh.

[espi360]

I never, nor did others responded with anger or provide misinformation in this thread Randy, I have to agree with Bala on this stupid moot point.
I merely was replying to U, the basis of what is wrong in your attack. Please read all the post again, and think about them before replying.
BIG_DILLI I suggest you do the same. ( you know who U are.)

And Freddy I still stand by my recomendation of 4-5 inches in the sump, and use a good slat and RO/DI water and do water changes every 2 weeks. Your corals will thank you.
good luck...


Please will this thread die from our memory...........

[gialitt]

boys, boys, boys!

just stop it, let it go! no further comments regarding flames are necessary; you're tripping up folks trying to learn more, clogging up thread - with this cycle of posturing and signifying.

do tell us more about tank. the key ingredient - oolitic sand - in a bed of 4" or more is the way to go and dr. rshimek's forum can help with fine tuning. grain size of sand is what your looking at and aragonite composition is good but not essential. it's my understanding that the sump can be used for locating the sand rather than main tank, if it's reasonably sized as sumps go. it doesn't have to be gigantic: not stressing form here, just functionality. 4" deep means the bottom layer gets NO oxygen and why 4" minimum is specified.

critters are absolutely required and both diversity and freedom from population reducing/decimating predators are key, in order to allow detrivore proliferation - especially in the beginning (seeding) process. no marine bettas, sand sifting stars, wrasses, etc. if located in main display.

a mature DSB is not an overnight sensation, so any other reef creatures must pass your stringent security until then. and for goodness sake don't trust LFS on this.

the high nitrates are troublesome in tank this old. is something dead/dying? why isn't live rock handling load better? do you have enough? hopefully some of it hasn't been dumped in without curing, good grief. have you tested other parameters? is your heat too high?

you should be using fresh carbon (it sounds like) and defintely do aged aquarium water changes after you track down source. you should be testing often and ideally have a written journal/track record since day one on your tank, in order to prevent a situation where few clues are revealed - otherwise all your time, expense and indeed the lifeforms in your care are needlessly at greater risk.

[FreddyC]

gialitt,

now there's a helpfull reply. I do understand there is a difference of opinion here, but I would appreciate if the flaming were to stop. The tank has been up since Decenber of 1997, and I have detailed notes on water chemistry which I record monthly.

As for live rock, I have lots. All told, about 350 lbs. 250 lbs Fiji rock over dead "mined" reef coral which has since become just as live as the Fiji. Great water circulation through the rock. It has never really helped lower nitrates since 1998. They started climbing in Sept. 1999 and have increased steadily since. I do a 50 gallon water change once a month with Santa Maria tap water. Nitrate in the tap is 10. I know, I know, RO/DI water is better, but after using it for a year, I still saw my nitrates climb. I bought a better skimmer in Feb. 2001, but no help. I set up a refugium in October 2001 with the idea of throwing out the caulerpa regularly. No real help there either. I don't really change the carbon any more since the tank water is crystal clear (good thing nitrate doesn't change the color). Other paramaters are as follows:

Temp 78-81
Sp Grav 1.023
pH 8.2
Nitrate 100
Phosphate .3 (usually lower, came up when I added my sand)
Alkylinity 4.0
KH 17
Iodide trace (I have added iodide to bring this up but it stays low)
Calcium 450+

The new sand came from Toys-R-Us and is definately in the fine sugar size recommended for a DSB. It also tested clear of nitrate and phosphate before I added it. In the main tank I have about 60-70% fine sugar size sand, a mix between arogonite and silica and 30-40% finely crushed coral--bigest size maybe 2-3mm.

I recently added the 9 for $99 package from Indiopacific, but they mostly sent me clams and bristle worms. Good stuff, but not really for sand. I should have been more specific on what to ask for (little less flaming and a bit more listing would have helped here BTW) They also sent some "miricle mud" which is supposed to contain sand sifters. I added all the mud to the sump/refugium and 1/2 the clams and bristles to the tank and 1/2 to the sump.

Time will tell if what I am attempting is working. I guess I was a bit opimistic about the DSB after reading someone post that her nitrates dropped dramatically in a week.

By the way, my soft corals are doing awsome! My fish are thriving. My bubble coral is 1 foot across. My brain coral is the size of a soccer ball. But my Blastoma is struggling, and sloughing off polyps. My SPS and gorgonian frags have never really grown. And my Bubble tip annie is really, really small and white. Like most reefers, I spend more time focusing on the problems and not enough appreciating the good stuff. But I want to do right by the organisms I keep and would like to see my reef thrive.

FreddyC

[gialitt]

as long as you have oolitic layer(s) on top you should be cool. crushed coral cannot be part of the needed four inch sand bed, although you can place a DSB ontop of the original CC without incident. your main tank will denitrate best if the ooltic layer is only one inch deep and composed entirely of aragonite. don't sweat it though at this point. the DSB in your sump should be seeded with critters from both of the top detrivore kit places, since their composition differs and diversity is a good thing. i've heard good things about the miracle mud so give it time. forget about those folks who claim miracle overnight stabilization 'cause it doesn't work that way.

it looks like you're doing your homework and i'm sure things will improve to get those nitrates down to 10 or less. make sure you have no pre-filters in your reef system, since you want those sand critters to be treated kindly as possible. for carbon, i'm sure you already know it works best if used intermittently and in incredibly small amounts: just enough to fit one of those small internal filters like the duetto or the shark, for instance. cut your feedings in half to help get better (completed) nitrogen cycle control and consider giving any creatures that require feeding a new home in your hosptial tank - at least until you put the rig into alpha :-) the improved condition you are working towards and it very well may take some weeks.

kind of curious about the skimmer though as it should be heading some of the decomposition process off at the pass, and pulling out loads of skimmate to prove it. it should be as high end as you can get and most likely the most expensive thing on the rig and hopefully comes with a pedigree for it's effectiveness.

last but most important - get a spectrapure RO/DI setup as soon as possible, as your water sounds like it is as likely a culprit as anything else. and those units are fabulous, even the modest rigs (since they cater to labs and research companies) and quality is higher than say, kent. it may take a while to remove those tap water impurites from your system but i would go back to using the filtered water, absolutely and exclusively, thereby taking out much of the extra work, fretting, adjusting and drudgery that run-of-the-mill (putrid, by reef standards) tap water creates. really.

mind you i'm just an aquarist like you, but interested in getting the mini-ecosystems we fool with to work right, with smartest investment of time and money on an otherwise rewarding/enriching hobby.

[FreddyC]

I've read your last post a number of times and I have a few questions and comments.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by no pre-filters on the reef system. I have a 6 inch square overflow box which drops down 2 feet into the sump. It is packed with bioballs and has a pre-filter to catch ditritus on the top. I never really even thought about it before, but could it be part of my problem? When I had it empty, it sounded like a waterfall and it was hard for me to sleep at night with the noise. I typically rinse the prefilter out every other day and replace it every 7-10 days.

For a skimmer, I am using a Berlin Turbo 250. Definately a good skimmer. I empty about 1/2 cup of thick muck out every other day. I can set it to run the air collumn higher, but the skimmate is definately thinner but of greater quantity.

I have cut feedings in half and am now using RO water for top off and changes.

By the way, even with nitrates as high as I have, there is very little algae growth.

[gialitt]

bio balls!? who knew

get rid of them (and any pads, unless you want to pay for more critters prematurely) in your REEF system. more appropriate for fish only where nitrate production, i say ... nitrate PRODUCTION, is inconsequential.

your liverock and DSB (normally very effecient and complete) are being compromised by the incomplete nitrogen cycle that these filtering agents are pumping into your rig, like a 24/7 factory operation. bio balls can't turn nitrate into (harmless) nitrogen gas - just like high heel sneakers, they are out of style. beside a fish only tank, they are o.k. inside of a protein skimmer, if designed that way, but to be avoided in your prized reef rig.

[FreddyC]

OK, I'll take them out this weekend. This may seem like a stupid question, but how do I keep the tank quiet when the water drops 4 feet straight down into the sump? Should I pack the overflow with sand? What else do people use in the overflow box?