Treating ich in the reef aquarium?

[merseyman]

... looks like I got it (or, rather, some of my fish do). What are my best options for treatment?

[AquaReeferMan]

Kick-Ich worked wonders for me. I also soaked all foods in selcon and garlic extreme. My Achilles just couldnt shake it. After 4 doses of kick-ich it was clear.

[xtopher_vw]

I prefer natural methods ie. cleaner shrimp, neon gobies etc. Cleaner wrasses aren't such a great idea but they work as well

[chaseracing]

Cleaner shrimp and Neon Blue Gobies. Get 2 small ones of each and they will setup shop in the corner and clean all of the fish that pass by.

-=E=-

[alan214]

Cleaner Shrimp nor Cleaner Wrasses do anything to cure Ich. They just provide a very, very small snack to the shrimp and Wrasse! You have to either remove the fish and treat them separately in a QT or hospital tank (leaving your tank fishless for at least 6 weeks) or take a chance on one of the in-tank med's like Kick Ich.

[lecher]

I agree with alan214. You will never totally irradicate the ich unless you treat in a hospital tank with an appropriate medication like copper and leave the main tank fishless for at least 6-8 weeks. Other wise you will always have a subclinical infestation that can crop up at any time your fish are weak.

[aznlmpulse]

I agree about Ich never going away, but it's mostly due to the fish being stressed. I jumped to aqcuire some cleaner shrimp, and never had another outbreak again.

p.s. My hippos showed ich soon after being added to my tank.

[Pmolan]

Originally posted by alan214
Cleaner Shrimp nor Cleaner Wrasses do anything to cure Ich. They just provide a very, very small snack to the shrimp and Wrasse! You have to either remove the fish and treat them separately in a QT or hospital tank (leaving your tank fishless for at least 6 weeks) or take a chance on one of the in-tank med's like Kick Ich.

I agree. Cleaner wrasse and cleaner shrimp are useless for ich especially in the wild. You should use a chemical that occurs naturally in the ocean like Kick Ich. They harvest this stuff where a rainbow touches the ocean just at the horizon. It's very hard to locate, I'm surprised all of the fish in the ocean that have ich can find it so easily.

[Freed]

Well if you look really close at the foam on the sea shores you will see specs of garlic and bubbles of the kick ich. That's actually where it comes from.

[Freed]

Whales harvest the garlic off the sand beds, chew it up really fine and then blow it out their blow holes which then ends up in the sea foam.

[merseyman]

... thanks. I'm personally of the belief that even if you did QT the fish for 3 months, ich, and almost anything you can imagine, will always persist/be introduced to the aquarium at some latent level over time. I agree that it's outbreak is probably a reaction to stress, and sleeping w/ whores ... just like herpes. Since it would be a major PITA to catch the fish, and they don't seem particularly bothered by what seems for now a minor outbreak, I think I'll try the garlic, selcon, and kickich route for now. P.S. I have 2 small cleaner shrimp who don't seem much interested in any CLEANING! I've had them in the past and never seen this, unless they're just very discreet! Oh well.

[Philwd]

merseyman - While I absolutely do not agree disease is an eventuality even if you QT I will agree you can live with it at sub clinical levels for a long time. However the first time your tank gets stressed your fish will come down with a full blown infestation immediately. I've seen it happen numerous times in past couple years with tanks 50-80% wiped out. Temp swings seem to be a major cause.

[aznlmpulse]

Hahaha.. pretty funny stuff.

I absolutely agree with the sarcasm. Fish do fine without the chemicals and additives in the wild. Natural means of ich control seems the way to go. I left this out in my earlier post, but I also gave my fish foods that were high in garlic as a precautionary measure after the tangs first started showing signs, and maybe it helped?

keeping cleaner wrasses in a smaller tank is a bad idea, but you can always borrow one from a friend.

If you have the room/space for a qt tank, then more power to you, but even that isn't a sure gurantee that you'll be ich free.

[Philwd]

I agree with the no chemicals in the tank. But fish do fine in the wild because it's not a closed system. It would be rare for a fish to get overwhelmed by a parasite. Natural cleaning aside that we have no way of replicating in it's entirety.

[bc explore reef]

My Hippo has minor spots of ICH for about 6 months now...Spots are always visible, some days more than others, but he seems to be unaffected by it, eating like a pig and swimming normal. I add garlic to food, have cleaner shrimp (nice to look at but useless for cleaning and UV). Other fish are fine.

Is there any harm in subjecting the Hippo to long term exposure of ICH?

[marduc]

Is there any harm in subjecting you to long term exposure to poison ivy?

[DouglasTiede]

Even in a QT tank with Hypro, you are not curing the ich, The QT and Hypo slow down the rate of the ich, thus allowing the fish to naturally fight off the ich. That is why it is essential to not over crowd and stress fish out. Just like in real life where stress causes all sorts of bad things in humans. Another part of the balance is a good healthy diet. A QT and Hypo is the only easy thing to use. Copper works but it can be difficult since it is toxic even to the fish you are trying to treat. Kind of like Chemo.

forgot to say get plenty of exercise, but I know someone else will chime in and say it

I wish anyone good luck with ich, ( look above my avatar photo )

[bc explore reef]

Marduc, thanks for the quality advise. I try to take care of my fish as humanely possible and I am grateful to tune into many helpful posts here on RC.

To answer your question, No and I would rather scratch an itch or two of poison ivy than being chased around my house with a net, then trap me in my washing machine for 2 months with my family and soak us with copper and other concoctions while suffocating us every other day in fresh water for 5-10 minutes.

I don't mean to be sarcastic but I think breaking down the tank and exposing the entire community to that has a greater impact than helping one fish that seems to be fine.

So the question remains, has anyone had experience with a fish winning the war over ich for prolonged periods?

[kfowler]

Originally posted by DouglasTiede
Even in a QT tank with Hypro, you are not curing the ich, The QT and Hypo slow down the rate of the ich, thus allowing the fish to naturally fight off the ich.

Please cite where you got this info from. I am always amazed at the misinformation that surrounds one of the most studied and understood diseases in aquaria. Hypo absolutely will kill ich, as well as copper. There are plenty of articles on RK Mag that discuss ich lifecycle and treatment.

Here's a good starting point.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[Vitaly]

merseyman...I am sorry to hear that you have an outbreak of marine ich. I am also sorry to hear that you have accepted all these myths, anecdotes and poor analogies.

Herpes is a latent virus...once it is in a human host it stays there, because the viral DNA integreates into the host DNA. Cryptocaryon irritans is a different story...it is an external parasite and can be rid permantly.

Look'it...as much as people love to think that "stress" causes infectious disease...it just is not true. Infectious agent cause infectious disease. The appropriate analogy to make is to the 1980's dogma that high stress/poor life style leads peptic ulcers in humans. Then one day everyone finally accepted that it is a bacterial infection in the stomach. People treated with antibioltics...low and behold the disease is resolved. No bacteria, no lesions in the stomach lining...regardless of how stressful your life is.

Same holds true for your fish. Get them into quarantine. Let your display run fallow for 6 weeks and it will be free. Ich is an obligate parasite...without a fish host it cannot complete its life cycle (trophant needs to find a host 24-48 hours after they excyst).

In the quarantine tank bring the salinity down. It is a science fact...it does nothing to the trophant or theront stage...but it DOES inhibit the tomont stage. Maintain your fish into in the low salinity and watch their behavior and make sure they are eating. Theywill improve (it is unlikely that you have encountered a low salinity variant that will tolerate the treatment). After the quarantine period is over and the fish have recovered there will be no viable Cryptocaryon irritans left.

Return your fish to the display. You can stress them out all you want...make them watch "So You Think You Can Dance" on tv. It matters not. No pathogen...no source for infection.

There are a number of wonderful articles describing the biology of this pathogen, its life cycle and the science behind treating it. Take some time to read it and understand this problem...our fish will be grateful for it.

[marduc]

did'nt mean to come across condenscending there.. was just helping to answer the most recent question you had posed, and since scarcasm has been prevalent in this thread, added a bit of my own with a rhetorical question for you to ponder.

ok.. quality advise.. the only way to "Cure" the tank is by removing all fish, and leaving the tank without fish for 6-8 weeks. This will break up the life cycle of the ich in the tank, the cysts will hatch, the newly born "ich's" will have no host to attain nutrition from, and will starve to death before reproducing (the parasites remain in cyst for for a month+ and are dormant in this stage).

Quarantining the fish and hyposalinity is the way to eradicate the fish of the ich.. the fish can withstand the lower salinity (1.09 - 1.10) while the parasties cannot. There is plenty of info to be found on this treatment protocal, look in the fish disease forums here.

That is the "correct" answer for you.. everything else is substandard, and hit or miss. having now said that, yes I have had success with a fish winning the war with ich over prolonged periods of time, and I did not go the hypo route either.

-disclaimer- the following is anecdotal, and is not a statement on how to go about eradicating your problem, I already stated the correct way.

I have had a hippo tang for the duration of time I have owned my tank, about 7 years now (back off tang police). It would come down with ich problems as well, it would linger a week or 2, clear up on its own, then reappear a month or 6 down the road, and repeat.

I have now not seen a trace of it in I would say 3 years. Not much really changed in my usbandry during that time, I always tried to maintain aaas stress free an environment as possible, fed an extremely varied diet, including using garlic, and selcon, and had stable temperatures. There is conjecture that fish develop "immunity" to the parasite, I would say that is just that though conjecture.. perhaps they do become more resistant, perhaps its just a bunch of bs.

The one change that did occur during my last (hesitate to use final here) outbreak was the addition of 2 neon gobies. They would often swim alongside my tang, snacking on whatever invisible thingys they saw on its body. I honestly do not think this is the sole reason for it clearing up though, I have no idea why it finally cleared up.. but since then I have not seen a trace of it. I am not under the conception, even after this long without it that my tank is "cured" though, it is just not symptomatic.

If you want to be 100% sure you have this problem kicked and that it will not return, the only way to go is to QT your fish, leave your main tank completely fishless for about 2 months, and treat the fish with hyposalinity in the QT tank, otherwise its just russian roulette. I got lucky somehow, but it would be irresponsible of me to tell you that it will work for you too.

[bc explore reef]

Vitaly,

Agree with you a 100%, you can't eradicate ich permanently unless QT and copper and this would be my choice for a FOWLR system, when you can pull out all of your fish and LR at no expense to others...But in a reef system you would be subjecting established corals to breaking down and rescaping right?

So for me I would have to agree with Marduc (BTW Marduc thanks for your last, we are much more productive to this site when we don't get sarcastic, I guess I took offense to the alleged abuse of my poor hippo) Anyway, I think its possible for the parasite to balance out by keeping up on water quality, diet and a low stress environment. Hence fish fighting off naturally, not allowing it to host and eventually dying off?

I see ich on some tangs at Atlantis Marine World a 20,000 gallon system and they don't remove all 700 of them, but there seems to be a balance.

Hopefully Merseyman, you can take everyone's input to determine your game plan. I have personally tried most things mentioned here in the last 2 years, but still seem to have ich. So I am going to continue with Marduc's technique for a while.

Good Luck!

[marduc]

bc explore reef, Wow!! for having risk management as your stated profession you are quick to jump aboard a "technique" that was most likely just a fluke convergence of numerous factors both known and unknown.

Should I have perhaps put in more warnings, and disclaimers on that post, or are you just filtering out what you do and do not want to hear from it?

[useskaforevil]

you can absolutly not have ich in your aquarium without copper or hypo. fish become immune to the particular strain of ich they are infected with and although they will end up reproducign and a few different strains will becomne many, eventually your fish will fight them all off and it will be as if you had no fish in the tank at all.

source: http://petsforum.com/personal/trevor...marineich.html


kaboom, citation means i win j/k

[Philwd]

you can absolutly not have ich in your aquarium without copper or hypo. fish become immune to the particular strain of ich they are infected with and although they will end up reproducign and a few different strains will becomne many, eventually your fish will fight them all off and it will be as if you had no fish in the tank at all.

You are misinterpreting what they say there. Fish do NOT develop PERMANENT immunity. They MAY develop PARTIAL TEMPORARY immunity. The ich will not go away. It will still be in the tank waiting for a stress trigger. There are so many sad examples of this. Read about Paul B.'s tank. Or Terry Siegel. Both lived long term with minor ich outbreaks. Both had a major stress event; tank move or temp excursion. We've had a couple examples of this locally in Az. Once this happens you may or may not lose fish. Depends on the severity of the outbreak. Typically the fish are absolutely covered. The only way for this to occur is if the ich was living and reproducing and was present waiting for a trigger. You don't see this as low level infestations can easily hide in the gills.

Sorry I don't have links to this. Read the bible Noga's Fish Diseases or search the writings of ATJ, Stephen Pro and Leebca.