Interceptor question

[wasp9166]

mine are in pill form, how you guys dosing it?

[chewie]

Originally posted by EricHugo
Hi Randy, Bomber, et al.



Lugol's dips did squat. Direct application of Lugol's for a couple minutes got rid of all visible bugs and killed them. Problem is, the coral bleached more than it already was. So, dosage variations? I don't know.

Hi Eric,

I've had good results with 40 drops of lugols to 1 gal of S/W as a dip.
I don't think it kills the bugs but, it ticks them off enough to let go of the coral. Then blast the coral with a turkey baster.

I've even gone as far as dipping every affected piece(mostly frags) at the same time. This got rid of them for a little while but in a few weeks they were back.

Also, I treated with the interceptor 3 weeks ago, and at the 2 week mark, I found 3 on my previously most affected coral. I retreated last weekend(3 weeks after the first) and will do one more this weekend. Hoping to get any of the hatchlings.

In all, I was hesitant to treat my tank but, my other option was to tear down and start over. I was about to buy a bunch of new rock when Dustin posted the treatment, so I gave it a shot.

Just wanted to share my experience. If I see 1 bug after my last treatment, I will be sure to let everybody know.

Wasp9166,

There is a plethora of info. posted in the SPS forum about how to dose.

[EricHugo]

So, I am now armed with magnesium sulfate, boric acid, permethrin, and hydrogen peroxide - all potential agents to kill marine crustacean and arthropod parasites with relatively low toxicity in other animals...will it kill the coral, too? Probably, but we'll see. Have dissecting scope, will travel.

[photobarry]

Where's nanotechnology when you need it?

I'm behind the times, did we for sure determine that the 'red bugs' are detrimental to corals or just a nuisance?

[G-money]

Originally posted by SeanT
It would be awesome if it were possible to treat all my corals in a Q tank.
Sadly not only isn't it realistically feasible, but how do we know that these bugs don't exist on the rockwork itself?

Hi Sean. You're exactly right. That's why it's recommended that every component of your system that holds water should be treated. I should have clarified that once the initial treatment is done in the tank, it's relatively easy to set up a Q tank to treat all newcomers. My tank is already treated, so the Q tank has become my tool. I think only treating the tank for the 3 treatments has been largely, if not completely successful for all of us guinea pigs.

I am hoping that the outcome of this discusion is to either:
A. Give evidence that Interceptor is safe to use.
B. Provide a safer alternative.

Yes, I agree. But like so many things in the hobby, we are probably going to have to rely largely on the observations of our peers. We can only hope they are honest and accurate. Of course, work by Randy, Bomber, Eric, et al would certainly add a measure of credibility that few of us can offer.

Understanding that many inverts are sacrificed in this treatment, my, albeit calloused, outlook is that hermits, 'pods, and shrimp can be replaced a lot more easily, readily, quickly and cheaply than the vast number of Acopora's I own.

I really didn't have that much extraneous die-off. Yes, there were some pods floating and I removed as many crabs as I could, but the hermits that stayed in the tank all survived.

I am still wary as to what effect Interceptor has on Clams.

I have a T. max that is apparently unaffected after a month.

Realize, I am in the midst of redoing my tank - new rock, new water, removing sand. I saw the potential risks in my case to be little beyond the immediate effect on the corals. This may be a consideration if one is "desperate" enough to get rid of the bugs. I don't have to worry about any type of accumulation in anything other than whatever biomass is going back in the "new" tank. If the effects weren't toxic within a month, I highly doubt they will be as long as they aren't exposed to the stuff again.

[Boomer]

Jer, Eric & Randy

Look under the Compendium of Insecticides, Acaricides.

http://www.alanwood.net/pesticides/c...caricides.html

then go here for some more data

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Index.html

also try here

http://www.epa.gov/ecotox/

[SeanT]

Originally posted by Graham
I removed as many crabs as I could

one of my qualms is that the pods don't reside solely on the corals but the live rock as well.
And hermit shells are very much live rock.
Did you exmaine the hermits closely to see it there were any bugs on them?

[AcroSteve]

Does carbon totally remove this after the treatment period?

[Bomber]

That's about where I've been looking Boom, same sort of deal anyway. I'm also talking to some people in the EPA. It's their job to know about all this crap anyway. I mean if they can force me to approve a insecticide that kills mosquitoes, does not harm the shrimp industry, and won't touch a coral - they should know, right?

I'm pretty sure it's going to end up being one of the site specific organophosphate pesticides. I mean look at the first one that popped into mind -chlorpyrifos. It has no effect on corals, corals don't have chitin. There's a given.

Find one of the organophosphate pesticides that work on a particular part or system of a animal, something that's been used in the past, had a bad effect on the shrimp industry, was banned - but toxicology showed no effect on adult corals because they don't have that part/pathway/nervous system/chitin/whatever. Then, here's the biggy, it's got to be something that people can get their hands on. It can't be a chemo. It might even turn out to be something like Oxymil, which I'm giving serious consideration to. ---- Disclaimer, some of these pesticides have bad effects on coral reproduction and settlement, we don't care about that, we're treating adult corals.

Anyhow, I'm talking to some friends in Guam about this. More later.

Right now I'm very busy. According to the latest RK Mag I have to take out all my live rock, put the DSB back, and have only a DSB for filtration and bacterial reduction. I better get on it.

[G-money]

Originally posted by SeanT
Did you exmaine the hermits closely to see it there were any bugs on them?

Nah, since:

1.) the hermits were not in the same system as any Acros for 3 weeks

2.) the bugs apparently have a real strong affinity for Acropora only. As I was watching them come sliming off my corals during the first treatment, not one of the non-Acroporas released any bugs. None. One could go on a limb and assume Acros are needed for their long term survival - in captivity anyway. I know of at least one case where someone has gotten rid of the bugs by removing all Acropora from their tank and restocking with different specimens later, bugs never to return.

and most importantly

3.) I haven't seen a red bug in a month - and I've looked real close. When I removed the corals from the tank (they are in a different holding tank), I checked them over. If there are any bugs, they've been real good about hiding for quite some time. I've looked every day at all different times, because I still can't believe they are gone. One coral had hundreds of them - had.

I'm not worried, but I won't say anything's not possible...if I were to see them again, I'd think now would be the time, as I'm sure there is some stress since they have moved to the holding tank.



Bomber,

As for the pesticide issue...not to sidetrack, but doesn't cyclopeeze also contain an organophosphate preservative that is classified as a pesticide? I think Mojo said something about that a while back.

Right now I'm very busy. According to the latest RK Mag I have to take out all my live rock, put the DSB back, and have only a DSB for filtration and bacterial reduction. I better get on it.

[Boomer]

Jer

Right now I'm very busy. According to the latest RK Mag I have to take out all my live rock, put the DSB back, and have only a DSB for filtration and bacterial reduction. I better get on it



Ok, that means my brain is due for a large data change. I'm off tomorrow, so hopefully there will be enough time

In the mean time, for the moment, I will now go order me a new pair of sneakers and glacial geology book just to keep me content from that last remark you made

organophosphate

I could tell you allot about these but then I would have someone knocking at my front door............."Hello William, so you have been talking about nerve agents we hear"

[AcroSteve]

But how do the bugs move from coral to coral? They would either have to float free in the water, crawl across the liverock, or direct contact of different corals.

This leaves possiblities that the bugs would still be in the system. No?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Right now I'm very busy. According to the latest RK Mag I have to take out all my live rock, put the DSB back, and have only a DSB for filtration and bacterial reduction. I better get on it.

I knew that you must have forgotten something important in that setup.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Does carbon totally remove this after the treatment period?

Totally is a very hard criteria, but in looking at the sturcture, it is very hydrophobic and should be readily bound to carbon. Here's a typical Milbemycin:

[Bomber]

It should skim out easy too.

Can you believe this! I made two phone calls and now both of them want to manufacture a product to sell to hobbyists! That's no help at all.

At least that tells me not only that it's doable but we're on the right track. If it's something they can put together and sell OTC, it can't be that hard to do.

[EricHugo]

Starting today, I am starting to get some information on the life-history, behavioral, and other types of questions mentioned above. That way, hopefully, it will provide some information on the neccesity of treating tanks versus dealing with it like other parasites (fleas) where if you isolate hosts and wait through a life cycle you are clear. Ideally, the bugs would direct develop on their host, and be highly host-specific (like only some Acropora) and then a targeted dip-type chemical could be used (Bomber, yes it does seem that organophosphates are the most effective form what I have gleaned, too, but agree that they are not benign to corals and soem corals do incorporate chitin (e.g. the pocilloporids)

remark#1: Has anyone claiming to have seen them on the rock really seen them and identified them because there is at least one other look-alike species.

remark #2: They are harmful. For sure. And, they will abandon (or nearly abandon) and near-dead host, allow recovery, and then return again.

Boomer: great links. And here I have been searching academic and aquaculture databases.

[Bomber]

Wouldn't it be a hoot if it ended up being something like Malathion?

[pi]

Is it just me or is it every time this many PhD’s come together in one thread, it seems to take a confusing turn? Maybe it is just a case of PhD envy....

I am little surprised about how much sudden interest there is on this subject. Though talked about at length for years by hobbyists, the scientific community always appeared somewhat indifferent and even at odds if these bugs were harmful. That seems to have changed.

So, what are the goals here?

1. Determine if the current treatment using Intereptor (Milbemycin Oxime) has any long-term negative impact possibly due to its breakdown to other more harmful components

2. Determine a potentially (less) evasive treatment?

3. Determine the lifecycle of the bug in order to better design the treatment protocol?

4. All of the above?

Thanks!

[Bomber]

What are you talking about pi?

[G-money]

Originally posted by pi

I am little surprised about how much sudden interest there is on this subject. Though talked about at length for years by hobbyists, the scientific community always appeared somewhat indifferent and even at odds if these bugs were harmful. That seems to have changed.

I think it's a matter of very credible folks not wanting to jump to conclusions - the way many of us hobbyists do . Innocent until proven guilty I guess...

[Bomber]

Don't assume that the scientific community is plugged in to what hobbyists have been talking about for years.

[Bomber]

Jezz Louise! Talk about starving marine biologists!

Two more emails. One wanted to know what price range this needed to fall into to be profitable and the other wanted to do studies and if there was any grant monies!

I'm going in the back door with it next week. Starting with the Farm Bureau and the South Florida Water Management District and Mosquito Control.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Don't worry, my company would not be interested in a market of less than a hundred million dollars.

[Bomber]

What does that come to, about $10 a bug?

I hear that. LOL

I know you run into this at work too, but I swear marine biologists take the prize when it comes to being dweebs.

[photobarry]

Originally posted by Bomber
I know you run into this at work too, but I swear marine biologists take the prize when it comes to being dweebs.

I take offense to that! We're just misunderstood.