scout's honor? you'll see what I mean

[oceanhighz]

first, read this : http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/3....ap/index.html

this had been bugging the S*** outta me since I heard about it. I'm a 16 year old former boy scout, who just happens to be a christian. When I heard that they were going to remove a 19 year old boy scout for not recognizing a "higher being" as an all powerful, I was appalled. How can you deny someone the right to be part of a group, just because he is an atheist. Religion should have no bearing in the fact that you want to help your community and become a better person. Here's what it boils down to in my head, discrimination is unconstitutional, therefore illegal. I don't support atheism, but I do however support the right to be an individual even if that means not believing in a supreme being. If they can kick this teen out of boy scouts for being an athiest, than how many things could I be kicked out of and for what? Could I be kicked out of my National Honor Society because I'm a jock, or if I was gothic, could I be kicked out for that too? If I recall, unity is preached by scout leaders as a common thing, and I have heard this from a few people who are even scouts now, doesn't this mean they are HUGE hypocrits, I mean they can't even accept this kid. YEAH, they a bunch of unified people. Damn hypocrits
Brandon

p.s. this post has been edited and re-edited to keep language out, trust me this was TOUGH to do!

[Sea Wraith]

Did you neglect to read the part about the Boy Scouts STANDARDS OF MEMBERSHIP? This is one of their standards! If you dont like it then you dont have to join or if you have joined then you dont have to stay! Simple as that! Break out your old Boy Scout manual and read the scouts oath which is as follows!!

On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

If you want to go one further, try looking at the Scout Law

SCOUT LAW
TRUSTWORTHY. A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.

LOYAL. A Scout is true to his family, Scout leaders, friends, school, and nation.

HELPFUL. A Scout is concerned about other people. He does things willingly for others without pay or reward.

FRIENDLY. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own.

COURTEOUS. A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

OBEDIENT. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

CHEERFUL. A Scout looks for the bright side of things. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.

THRIFTY. A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for unforeseen needs. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.

BRAVE. A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him.

CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

I would object if they were funded by the tax payer...

Should the kkk allow black members?

They are christians... what do you expect?
Should they allow those "atheist" to morally corrupt their youth?


BTW, I too was in boy scouts... I'm agnostic and kept my mouth shut. I wasn't there to be a christian... but showed my respect. I never had any problems...

[Grumpy Vet]

BTW, I too was in boy scouts... I'm agnostic and kept my mouth shut. I wasn't there to be a christian... but showed my respect. I never had any problems...

Senior Patrol Leader of Troop 446 - Longhorn Council in Texas.
Order of the Arrow.
Made it to "Life" before I just ran out of time w/ part time job, track, cross country, martial arts, school and chores.

Was in scouting from age 10-16.

I had a great time....I learned oodles about life, relationships, outdoorsy skills, leadership, camping, philanthropy and sure even tying knots.

I was not and am not an actively worshipping christian. I believe in something......just not sure I could say it is "a" higher power.

So when I said "....to do my duty to God and my country" - sure I was faking it......should I have taken a stand and lost out on all those experiences? I don't think so.

I'm fine w/ "...one nation under God"....and frankly I don't think my wife would take kindly to my nullifying our vows because "in the name of the Son, the Father and the Holy Ghost we were declared man and wife".

Some things you should stand up for.....but this one w/ the scouts, it is their rules (can't be a homosexual either). Our troop never did a whole lot praying.....

Come to think of it my fraternity in college, Sigma Phi Epsilon, is a christian based social organization w/ "God Speak" in the initiation and ritual ceremonies.....went along there too.......

I don't recall too much praying or religion w/ the Sig Eps except for when grades came out or the police showed up.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is a big pet peeve of mine, and is why I've not given any money to the United Way for many years: they support the scouts despite their restrictions on membership.

I was a scout for many many years, and loved it.

Later, I tried to volunteer as a scoutmaster, but could not ethically sign the part about believing something like "no one can be the best type of person without believing in god" or some similar thing. Despite otherwise wanting me, they would not take me because I wouldn't sign it.

So now I lump the scouts along with a large number of other groups that have a perfect right to exist, but which I will have nothing to do with.

[budhaboy]

personally I think its wrong and a bit of a double standard in the eyes of the law- the Non-gay rule I believe is discriminatory(dont start with the morals bit- morals are matters of opinions) and the religon bit, well it does state it in their rules, but for a court to uphold this, I think will be a double standard- women have successfully fought Men's Clubs all over the country for membership, and gee, it was in their charters that it was MEN ONLY yet the courts have repeatedly forced Men's Clubs to accept women(I myself would rather look at a pretty woman smoking a stogie than a fellow wrinkled old man smoking a stogie but thats just me)
I myself was never a scout and never wanted to be( My grandfather and father taught me woodcraft and lore and how to survive with minimum materials) but I have had and still have friends that were in the scouts(my roomate acheived life status in the Girlscouts- her mother is still a troop leader) and I know its not an easy task to become an Eagle scout- you gotta be a REALLY GOOD kid(something I was never good at- being good)
The scouts are just losing out on a good person (yet again) that could help the youth of tomorrow.

[Aquaman]

Interesting thread,

I spent most of my youth as a Scout, and after that I spent another 10 years as a Scout leader. Athough sad to see such a fine Scout leave the organization, But he did take an oath and the Boy Scouts are a Christian based organization.

women have successfully fought Men's Clubs all over the country for membership, and gee, it was in their charters that it was MEN ONLY yet the courts have repeatedly forced Men's Clubs to accept women

This may be partly cause the Boy Scouts are a christian based organization and as such the rules of Seperation of Church and State may be the reason why some of these Mens Only Clubs lost in the courtroom.

Personally Im glad to see that the leaders of Boy Scouts are taking this stance and keeping the ideals and morals of the Boy Scouts founder alive.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Personally Im glad to see that the leaders of Boy Scouts are taking this stance and keeping the ideals and morals of the Boy Scouts founder alive.

Too bad they are not quite so clear when they are soliciting donations from the public.

Maybe they should start their charity requests with:

" We only support boys who are heterosexual and believe in god. Please give us some money"

[Aquaman]

Too bad they are not quite so clear when they are soliciting donations from the public.

Perhaps So, but up until these last few years, people were not quite so hung up on the Political Correctness

We only support boys who are heterosexual and believe in god. Please give us some money"

LOL, and while were at that, how about making all the politicans tell us what their really gonna do with all that campain money

[ChrisPrusha]

Interesting thread...my only comment at this time is to question how a 19 year old, with relatively little life experience, can really be an avowed atheist. Perhaps this statement is pretentious on my part, but I stand by it nonetheless.

Chris

[Ninong]

Originally posted by ChrisPrusha
Interesting thread...my only comment at this time is to question how a 19 year old, with relatively little life experience, can really be an avowed atheist. Perhaps this statement is pretentious on my part, but I stand by it nonetheless.

Chris

Chris,

Someone might turn that around and ask how a 19 year old, with relatively little life experience, can be an avowed Christian, or Buddhist, or Muslim, or Jew? Isn't it amazing that most 19 year olds just happen to have the same religious beliefs as their parents? And isn't it amazing that of all the 400 or so religions in the world, they just happened to be born into the one true religion?

[Ninong]

I believe the courts have decided that the Boy Scouts are a private organization entitled to freedom of association protections. The Boy Scouts would also like to continue receiving public funds, thus their new unwritten "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Actually it's not really a new policy at all. They just wish people wouldn't keep pointing out things that might cause them to lose funding.

Hey, how come the Girls Scouts never seem to have these same issues come up all the time?

[oceanhighz]

quote:
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On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Isn't this like someone saying the pledge of allegiance and not believing in a supreme being, even if it's not God. They don't have to, because it's they're choice. I do understand that it says " to God" but it also says my country, which I believe he was doing.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can't you look at it like this? He is reverent in his religious duties, he doesn't believe in God and therefore he is being reverent to his religion. No one is complaining about him respecting the beliefs of others, because he is most likely respecting their beliefs, just not joining in them.

Sea Wraith, I see your point, and I'm just stating mine. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I'm not taking that away from you, I was just stating the opinion I have when I started, no hard feelings?

[SBGRAD24]

I don't understand what a 19 year old is doing in the Boy Scouts to begin with. Grow up, loser.

[Niven]

Anyone else out there looking for attention

He knew what this organization was the whole time he was in it. Where were the meetings held? (are's were always in a church) What did he do during the Scout Master's Benediction? How'd did he feel about prayer before meals at camp? Were there just 11 Scout Laws for him? I want to be in the KKK, but the racist part I don't agree with

It's a hard decision. You don't want to force religion on him. If you kick him out, he'll be anti scouts for the rest of his life. It kind of seems like it's someone higher up that's trying to make a point. Maybe in this troop, religion didn't play much of a role. My Dad has been in and around Scouts for 40 years. I've seen many differently run troops. There was a troop in our council that was run like a military academy. They were asked to leave summer camp half way through. Now I'm babbling.
Gareth

[Sea Wraith]

I entered the Boy Scouts too late to make it to Eagle but I did manage to get to Star Scout, I was a member of a troop who were sponsored by a Church that was a different denomiation that the faith I grew up in yet they still worshipped the same "God"! The standards are clearly stated and if he doesnt like it then so be it! I do not attend church now but I grew up and professed my Christianity so call me a hippocrit if you want. I think its good that the organisations stand up for what they believe in and make it known! Nuff Said.

REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

If youll notice it says he is REVERENT to GOD, He is FAITHFUL in his religious duties. He RESPECTS the beliefs of others. It says nothing about being reverent in his religious duties.

from oceanhighs: Can't you look at it like this? He is reverent in his religious duties, he doesn't believe in God and therefore he is being reverent to his religion. No one is complaining about him respecting the beliefs of others, because he is most likely respecting their beliefs, just not joining in them.

This is the problem with the whole world! Everyone is always trying to put a TWIST on things!

[Aquaman]

Hey, how come the Girls Scouts never seem to have these same issues come up all the time?

hehe, Dont see many guys lining up to join that group!

I don't understand what a 19 year old is doing in the Boy Scouts to begin with. Grow up, loser.

Actually anyone who reaches Eagle Scout cant really be called a loser! That is quite an accomplishment. I was in Scouts up to the age of 17 then I spent another 10 years leading and running a troop.

But the last time I checked you could only be a Scout up to the age of 17. So unless he is training to be a Scout Master or Leader which could be the case their is something missing from this story.

BTW Boy Scouts is not just a Christian organization. Their are scouts from Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist religions as well.

[Ninong]

You can be a boy scout up until the age of 18 because my nephew had to hurry up to complete his eagle scout project before he turned 18.

The reason you don't hear much about the Girl Scouts of America having these problems is because their national leadership does not promote homophobia and teach religious intolerance.

[cmoreash]

He RESPECTS the beliefs of others.

If that was true, we wouldn't have an opportunity to be discussing this now, would we?

And what's this about not being allowed in scouts if you don't believe in God? That sems really hypocritical to me. If you look through the handbook, they offer emblems for scouts of many different religions. Well, in Buddhism, they don't believe in a God, do they? (can anyone elaborate on that?) So why are THEY allowed in Scouts then, and not Atheists? I'm not ragging on Buddhists, I really respect your guy's religion a lot. Just an example. I mean, I bet a lot of Atheists DO believe in something, I mean, there's nothing wrong with the idea of evolution, and there isn't a supreme being, right? If you aren't going to allow people for beliefs like that, then why should you allow others who believe something different as well?

Would I not be allowed in scouts if i said I was Atheist? What if i said i believed in Zoorak, the giant cow god who rules the universe? :P I think that'd qualify for the boy scout rules as believing in a god.

'Nuff said.

[Darkfrog]

Originally posted by Ninong

The reason you don't hear much about the Girl Scouts of America having these problems is because their national leadership does not promote homophobia and teach religious intolerance.

Religious intolerance? I guess if I wanted to start a Jewish outdoor activity club, but don't want gentiles, then I'm intolerant? The BSA has always been religious based and never made any claims to the contrary. Others have tried to force them to be secular but it is a private organization and shouldn't be forced to change. Get over it.

[Ninong]

Yes, religious intolerance. That's fine with me as long as they don't pretend to be anything other than any other private organization that practices discrimination. But they haven't always been that way and they are not that way in every part of the country. And they pretend to be a national institution as American as the 4th. of July.

This country claims to be a land that guarantees freedom of religion. Well, freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. Praise God, or else! How Orwellian is that? What's next, Thought Police? Didn't we just get rid of the Taliban: Allahu akbar, or else!

This country is not a theocracy, in spite of what people like Jesse Helms--one of the finest minds of the 12th. century--would have us believe. So now that the BSA are running into problems using public school facilities in parts of the country that have local anti-discrimination laws, they have managed to railroad a bill through Congress that would deny funds to any school district that refuses to allow them access. Politicians have never been known for having much moral backbone when it comes to voting down something that could cost them the next election.

Besides, how can you say that they claim to be a religious organization when they put out press releases saying that you can substitute any wording you want in place of the word "God?" They even offer suggestions: "Mother Nature" would be fine. Unless you want to claim that as Shintoism.

The Boy Scout movement didn't start here. It started in England. But only in the U.S. do we have this problem with the national leadership trying to tell people how they should think and what they should believe. Canadian boy scouts certainly don't have that problem. They think we're a bunch of right-wing bigots.

[Ninong]

KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not hurt or kill harmless things without reason.

The following is an excerpt from the April 12, 1999 issue of Business Week. It is part of an interview Edward E. Whitacre, Jr. gave to a reporter from Business Week at his ranch outside San Antonio:

RANCH LIFE
Whitacre's ranch in suburban San Antonio is rife with deer, two zebras, and rattlesnakes--which Whitacre casually kills by pinning them with a stick and crushing their heads. His favorite ranch activity is driving his Caterpillar tractor to move debris and dig holes. ''I've been known to run over trees and do stupid things, but I like to do that,'' he says.

Whitacre is the CEO of SBC Communications. Oh... and he is also the President of the Boy Scouts of America.

[ChrisPrusha]

Well, he did say he liked to do stupid things.

By the way, Whitacre, nice job with SBC...I don't think my 4 year old could have run its stock into the ground any faster than you did!

Sorry...just venting a little.

Chris

[Darkfrog]

Originally posted by Ninong

Politicians have never been known for having much moral backbone when it comes to voting down something that could cost them the next election.

Amen

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What if i said i believed in Zoorak, the giant cow god who rules the universe? :P I think that'd qualify for the boy scout rules as believing in a god.



That is hilarious. I should have tried that approach when they rejected me as a scoutmaster