New Lighting Bill Passed

[TropTrea]

I had read on another site that Congress has passed a new bill on lighting. What it does is bann the sale of incadescent bulbs of 100 watts or more by 2010, any over 25 watts by 2012 and the usage of any incadescent lighting of 25 watts or more by 2104.

Acording to the artical this is all bulbs that use a filiment which includes tungsten, Sodium, Metal Hides etc.

Could we all be going to t-5 VHO bulbs in the near future? Or will something more effecient be comming out by then?

This same bill also pushes the average new automibile gas milage up by at least 40% by 2110. Does that mean even small engines that won't be able to keep up with freeway speeds?

Dennis

[Freed]

So at least 97 years to go before MH are outlawed? I won't be around then so I don't care what they do then. I don't think there will be oil by the year 2110 anyway so that's a moot point on the gas mileage as well.

[The Grim Reefer]

uh, Metal halides don't have a filiment. They did change the ballast standards though

[Snowboarda42]

Metal Halides ignite gas, not a filament

[barjam]

We will be 100% LED or OLED in 10 years (or less) anyhow.

[howdy777]

led won't replace mhs, at least not for a LONG time

[kdblove_99]

Agree, Halides will be here till the end or until LED come down to a reasonable price

[reef / aholic]

Originally posted by TropTrea
Acording to the artical this is all bulbs that use a filiment which includes tungsten, Sodium, Metal Hides etc.

Dennis

TropTrea Occupation: Electonics Research and Development comsultant

Does anybody else find this funny!!!

[TropTrea]

I don't think it is funny. But I do think we have rougly 5 years to rethink our lighting needs.

There have been some fairly good advances in the last 10 years. However with some of the larger tanks there still in nothing out there as good as the Metalhides.

What the govennment is looking at is simple lums of output per watt consumed. They are not taking light spectrum into account as well as reflectors.

Now if you start doing comparisns on just those factors Floresecnt amnd Led lighing have just about everything else beat out.

Then you look at the influence of the lighting industry and there lobbies. It is in there favore to stop selling 49 cent incadesent bulbs instead of the $3.00 Compacts out there now.

I have switched to HO -T-5's myself. So far I do not have any big complaints. However time will tell on there long term erformance.

Now there is no reason that the LEDs are as expansive as they are today. What we are payngf for on these LEDs systems in 94 cents for the reacearch and 6 cents for the actual LED's. out of every dollar. Once they start recouping all the RandD expenses the prices should drop down considerably. However the real long range performance in the reef tank of these LED systems has yet to be proven one way or another.

I do think we need to keep our eyesopen though.

Dennis

Originally posted by reef / aholic

Does anybody else find this funny!!!

[jerryz]

lol I always find partially informed opinions funny.

[notenoughtanks]

Mh are HID not filament first, second I don't see every factory and warehouse being forced to change light setups that have been in mass use forever. I will admit that scared me when I first heard it before hearing details

[ReefWreak]

I don't think the government will actually enact anything to control how people use their electricity. The best response to the usage of a utility is never passing government legislation, but is instead with just raising the prices of electricity.

I've heard of a few people in areas with expensive electricity costs who got rid of their 4x400w or something crazy like that over a 55g tank cutting down to ya know, say 6x54w T5s or whatever size it is that fits the tank (of course this situation is an exaggeration, however I have heard of people downgrading their lights to T5HO because of power costs).

[TropTrea]

There is presently a program funded by the Federal Government that gives Factories and other comercial institutions a rebate for every HID fixture they replace with a florescent fixture. The rebate goes up to $200.00 per fixture and is based uon the difference in wattage between the new and old fixture.

[FishTri]

There is a Federal Tax Deduction for investments in energy efficient lighting, but, a rebate program funded by the Federal Government? More likely this is a State or regional utility program.

If I'm wrong, please point me in the right direction. I'd love to learn more about it.

[FishTri]

There is a Federal Tax Deduction for businesses that invest in energy efficient lighting (up to 60 cents per square foot), but a rebate program funded by the Federal Government? More likely this is a State or regional utility program.

If I'm wrong, please point me in the right direction. I'd love to learn more about it.

[chrissreef]

Don't CF's have mercury in them and need to be disposed of in a special way??

[barjam]

Now if you start doing comparisns on just those factors Floresecnt amnd Led lighing have just about everything else beat out.

Metal halide is more efficient than either of those technologies. One could argue that the T5 reflectors do a better (or different) job of delivering the light but looking at raw numbers watt for watt metal halide is more efficient at producing light and LED isn't even close. There are some LED units in the labs that match or exceed the output of MH but they are not available yet.

Why was sodium mentioned, they are far, far, far more efficient than any technology commonly available topping out at 200 lumens per watt. Compare that to T5HO at 85.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy

MH range from 65-115. T5HO is less efficient than T5 (that is listed) and is in the 85 lumens/watt range.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_halide

[The Grim Reefer]

Problem is that doesn't take into account the short service life of halide lamps compared to fluorescents. Within 6 months or so the T5 will be ahead of the halide. That is why the big push to convert the Hi Bay lights over to T5's. Sodium lights are not really usefull for indoor lighting because of the color.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by reef / aholic
TropTrea Occupation: Electonics Research and Development comsultant

Does anybody else find this funny!!!

Oh yeah, I think thats funny too...lol. The only bulbs which have filaments and are going to be phased out are halogens and regular 'edison' bulbs. No HID bulbs (MV, HPS, Xenon, or MH) have a filement. Heck, technically, 99% of fluorescent bulbs have filaments as part of the electrodes at the end (that 1% left over is for induction bulbs which are rare yet oh so cool).

[The Grim Reefer]

They are also exempting specialty lamps so you guys with lizzards and snakes can take back that gross of heat lamps you bought

[TropTrea]

I know at the present place I'm working they are pulling all the 400 Watt Metal Hide Lights and replaceing them with units that consist of 4-HO T-5 54 watt bulbs. That is basicly replacing 400+ watt lighing units with 216 watt lighting units. Visually the sections of the plant with the new florescent units are noticably brighter looking. It was explained to me that while these new units are costing over $300.00 each that they will come out way ahead in less than one year.

The calculations are saving on electricity @.11 KW/hour= $126 per year in energy savings per light fixture, maintance cost difference of about $35.00 per year = $161 per year and with the $200 federal rebate on there taxes it will save them $361 the first year which is more than they are spending on these light fixtures.

It was also noted that by 2012 they cannot use the old MH lights anymore and if they waited till next year they would not be getting the rebate on these fixtures.



Dennis

[TropTrea]

Originally posted by barjam


Why was sodium mentioned, they are far, far, far more efficient than any technology commonly available topping out at 200 lumens per watt. Compare that to T5HO at 85.

You need to be real careful when you make these comparisons. They are simply comparing Lumns and not looking at color temperature, or PAR values that we are concerned about. Sodium Lights produce light in a very narrow frequency range that has in in the yellow part of the spectrum.

Originally posted by barjam

MH range from 65-115. T5HO is less efficient than T5 (that is listed) and is in the 85 lumens/watt range..

Again we look at the MH's that are at 115 Lums per watt and these are usually at very low Color Temps like 2,700K or even 2,400K. When you get up to 10,000K to 20,000K the Lumns poer wat does drop off considerably.

Whare we need to get a good equivelent is someone comparing different bulb types that are at the same color temperature. And even at that you can look an Sanjay's data and see that one manufacturer to another often have more than 50% of a difference.

So what you need is a table showing PAR, LUMs, Color Temp, Manufacturer, and Type of Bulb. And even with that the reflector design will make a big difference. As an example the Lums prodiced by CF bulbs are much higher than what is usable do to the reflector design.

Dennis

[The Grim Reefer]

There is no bulb ban!!!

There are new standards set for the lumens per watt for incandescent lamps. They will only be able to use up to like 40 watts as long as they produce enough lumens.

Metal Halides are not banned. The only thing they did was revise the efficiency standards for the Ballasts. Nothing bans the use of Halides yet.

[washingtond]

Here is the link to more information:
http://www.environmentalleader.com/2...nt-light-bulb/

[barjam]

What I am saying is that used in the proper setting Mh/Sodium are very efficient and should be exempt. It would be asinine to replace the world's sodium lamps (considering where they are used) for another technology because they are so efficient, for example. Yes they are yellow and ugly but does it matter for street lamps?

When you get up to 10,000K to 20,000K the Lumns poer wat does drop off considerably.

That is by definition. Any lighting source boosted out of the 6500k range looses lumens because lumens is a measure of light that humans perceive. I think what you are saying is that MH does a poor job of making blue light relative to fluorescent, right?

I know at the present place I'm working they are pulling all the 400 Watt Metal Hide Lights and replaceing them with units that consist of 4-HO T-5 54 watt bulbs. That is basicly replacing 400+ watt lighing units with 216 watt lighting units.

Yea the T5 fixture is much better at this sort of lighting. Point sources suck at lighting a gymnasium and the MH's will drop faster than the T5 lumens wise.

Whare we need to get a good equivelent is someone comparing different bulb types that are at the same color temperature.

Sanjay is doing testing on T5s currently.

There is no bulb ban!!!

Shhh, it is giving us something to discuss!!