Does anyone have sumpless system???

[Marc]

HI Everyone,

I am contimplating of removing my sump from my FOWLR system and want to just use my 72" Lifereef venturi skimmer connected to the tank alone. I figured this would reduce my electrical costs considerably and have only one tank to clean every month instead of cleaning the sump as well. I figure the sump is a nutrient sink anyway with the amount of ditritus that accumulates in it. Also I want to eliminate the overflow because it is noisy and and I want to eliminate the salt creep problems that comes from it. Has anyone tried this? What do you think?

Thanks,
Marc

[Folorin]

Ive never run a sump on my 70g. Nitrates are at zero, mad coralline growth and all fish and corals are healthy.

I have thought about adding a sump, but then I thought. why?

[GSMguy]

i have no sump and have no problems sumps add allot of problems eve though they also add volume and a place for equipment they can add headaches

[pjf]

My recommendation is to keep your sump and lower the flow rate of your return pump to lessen the noise and to improve skimmer performance. You can make up for the reduced return flow with additional flow devices (Vortech propellers, etc.) in your main tank.

Here is an except from Anthony Calfo’s post on why you need a sump and why you need less turbulence in your sump:

“So... why don’t you get such daily skimmate? There are many common reasons for this.

The number one reason is the quality of water delivered to the skimmer.

Anything less than raw water overflowed straight into the skimmer is a compromise.

Hence the popularity and track record of Tunze rail- and top mount skimmers (they sit at the surface of the water).

I understand that this is not always practical. Top mount skimmers are unsightly, and not everyone can or wants to plumb their overflow directly into the skimmer instead.

So what’s the next best thing? Well... overflowing raw water into a narrow and concentrated skimmer vessel (just slightly larger than the footprint of your sump model skimmer... or really... just the pump that feeds the skimmer). The easiest way to accomplish this is to seal a partition in the sump if the sump is large enough. Else, just get a small plastic or glass vessel (again... just large enough to squeak the skimmer into) and drill it to overflow into the sump. It will, of course, be kept next to and slightly higher than the sump for this strategic position between the overflow and the sump proper.

If instead you simply sit your skimmer in an open sump... you may just want to unplug it and save the electricity. I'm guessing you get a full cup of skimmate out of that skimmer once weekly or less. It’s no great surprise. Some skimmers can perform well this way... but most do not. And it’s as much to do with size (small) and flow (high) of the sump that makes skimmers in open sumps work at all.

The problem with the majority of skimmers installed (and working poorly) in open sumps is that the fluctuation in water level (turbulence and/or evaporation) slightly affects the head (pressure) on the pump and in turn the amount of water forced into the skimmer. The open sump with slower flow also wreaks havoc on the collection/concentration of proteins (they can migrate back to the surface of the water as they do in the main tank) above the level of the skimmer pump in this case.

That reminds me of the problem with HOB skimmers... their feed pump is drawing water from several inches below the surface of the tank. Wanna improve HOB skimmer performace? Raise the powerhead as close to the surface as you can. Its not as good as getting overflow water (better concentration of surface protein overflow water)... but it is a huge help.”

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

[pjf]

OK. According to Calfo above, you can buy a Tunze skimmer and get rid of your sump.

Here's another reason to keep your sump: water changes.

Here's basically how I change my water:

(1) Turn off pump
(2) Siphon sump
(3) Mix salt in sump
(4) Heat
(5) Turn on pump

Done!

If you want to get fancy, after step (2), you can pull out your standpipe to get rid of the gunk in your overflow.

I've no idea how anyone does a water change without a sump!

By the way, if you have a chaetomorpha refugium as I do, put the algae in a bucket first.

[TexasPete]

I have thing with bioballs and a pump. It is not really a sump with rocks and alge like some people have.

[Marc]

Thats how I usually did my water changes to but I view the sump as an extra piece that I have to clean out every month. Also I need the room and also to minimize electrical costs. But what about distritus buildup at the surface of the water? This is what I am also concerned about. Does anyone who uses a sumpless system have a problem with distritus build up on the surface of the water???

Marc

[yeldarbj]

I've got a sumpless 65. I run a Remora hang-on skimmer with skimmer box and a Filstar XP2 cannister. I have the Filstar intake line in the skimmer box as well, that really helps minimize any buildup on the surface. Without any type of surface skimming, you will probably get some buildup. Drs F&S sells a surface skimmer for cannister filters that works fairly well, also Eheim has one.

[999sterling]

I ran a 55 gal tank without a sump for over three years.

My skimmer worked as well in the tank as it ever has in a sump.

As for detrius build up on the surface, I ran/ still run a power head that REALLY stirs up the surface. I originally did it for gas exchange, but I've never had any build up on the surface of anything.

Water changes were not a problem for me. I premixed 10 gallons of water. Then drained 10 gallons of water from the tank. (this lowered the water level only about 2-3" so my corals stayed submerged) then I added the new water.

Just make sure your corals and heater etc. etc. are positioned lower in the tank than the water will drop durring the water change. You could do smaller water changes to lower the level of the water drop.

One thing you will have to consider is if you really want your skimmer in the main tank. If it spills microbubbles, they wont be in your sump they will be in your TANK. also it will be a visible piece of equpment in your tank.

[Marc]

Well I did it and finished up the project of connecting the skimmer directly to the tank. There is MORE ROOM!!! Even that bulky overflow box was taken off and now cleaning should be much easier. The skimmer even works better now and seems to have more foaming froth than when using with the sump. I wish I would have thought of this before I invested in my $400.00 Lifereef sump! I could of saved some money.

Thanks,
Marc

[JeffDubya]

I have a 29 gallon with remora skimmer... it's maturing well, looks great, and all the paramaters are in check, except for my nitrates. I don't overfeed the tank and I have no idea what to do. Any suggestions?

[Marc]

What is your nitrate reading and what do you use as a test kit? Also what is your livestock level?

Marc

[dc_909]

Here is my sumpless 80

[Bergovoy]

How about some 'clean' pics??

Originally posted by Marc
Well I did it and finished up the project of connecting the skimmer directly to the tank. There is MORE ROOM!!! Even that bulky overflow box was taken off and now cleaning should be much easier. The skimmer even works better now and seems to have more foaming froth than when using with the sump. I wish I would have thought of this before I invested in my $400.00 Lifereef sump! I could of saved some money.

Thanks,
Marc

[Steadyhand]

I use a Deltec MCE600 HOB skimmer and this set-up under my tank (I use the Lifeguard instead of a sump). It has a mechanical pleated filter module with pressure gauge; a chemical filter module with tiny openings - I use RowaPhos in it; a heater module I use a hydor heater in; and an 8watt UV module.


I have to say, these aren't popular with RC folks, but I love mine - NO noise, NO mess, NO overflow - it's like a small self-contained sump of sorts (well, kinda anyways).

[TroyT]

Steadyhand - do you have a picture of how this setup under your tank? Thanks.

[Steadyhand]

I'll have to take a pic - I ended up making a 45 degree bend in the middle, so it would fit. I recently added the Vortech, so after I clean up those wires and such today I'll take a photo or two and post -

Rich

[yeldarbj]

Jeffdubya,

Do you have the skimmer box for the Remora or do you have a hang-on or cannister filter? If so try using a 100ml bag of Seachem Purigen and 100-200 ml of Seachem SeaGel (mix of carbon & phosphate remover). I used a 100ml bag of Purigen and about 250ml of SeaGel for my 65, and nitrates have gone from around 20 to less than 5 in less than a week. You might try just the Purigen in the outflow area of the skimmer box if you have one.

[Moloch_0]

Steadyhand - I'm curious to see how the heater module seals once you put he heater in.

I've been sumpless with just a skimmer for 2 years, all is well!

[Paul B]

Sumpless since 1972

[JeffDubya]

Originally posted by Marc
What is your nitrate reading and what do you use as a test kit? Also what is your livestock level?

My nitrate reading is 10. I use the SeaChem test kit.

I have 2 percula clowns, 1 royal gramma, 1 firefish, 1 6 line wrasse, one green banded goby and one neon goby. All small fish. I have one blue banded coral shrimp, and there are a couple hh emerald crabs as well.

My cleanup crew consists of about 18 snails (astrea, margaurite, nassarius) and a bunch of little hermits.

I have a big frogspawn, a bunch of polyps and mushrooms, a small hammer and a couple small montiporas.

Up until last week I had a bed of crushed coral, medium to coarse. Now, I have a deep sand bed, 2-3 inches of fine aragonite sand. I have probaby 30-40 lbs of live rock.

I have circulation from three powerheads of about 25x and a HOB remora skimmer.

About 2 months into my tank, I nuked my pop population trying to treat a sick fish with melafix. I don't know if this has anything to do with anything, but I am seeing my first pods on the glass in 5 months as of last night!

I really work hard to not overfeed my tank. I target feed cyclopeeze and mysis to my hammer and frogspawn, I feed my fish only once every 3-4 days (sometimes waiting to the point that I feel a bit guilty - but everyone is still fat and happy) I feed (sparingly) blood worms, mysis ad flake to my fish, and treat them about every week to live bbs. With the exception of bbs, I feed as demand warrants, and no more.

[Steadyhand]

Originally posted by Moloch_0
Steadyhand - I'm curious to see how the heater module seals once you put he heater in.

I've been sumpless with just a skimmer for 2 years, all is well!

Here is a pick of how the Heater (any standard heater works) fits in - the module comes with different size fittings for different diameters.

Here is a pic of how it fits under the tank - my tank is 36" wide and a bit messy underneath - pardon the wires - i have zippy cords for them I need to use!

[Marc]

JeffDubya


From the sound of it your doing everything right so you must have an excellent setup. The only thing I can say is water changes. They make a huge difference. Even though sometimes your nitrate will hit a platue and stay the same because of your livestock. 10 ppm is not much at all so you should be fine.

Marc

[Secondgen]

Also you have to consider microbubbles when you do not run a sump.

[Marc]

Yeah the microbubbles are a small concern but I had that anyway even with the sump, but there not bad at all. I have to get a bubble diffuser from Jeff at Lifereef so that should take care of it when i install it on the skimmer.

Marc